Am I right to believe that God is also a vengeful god?

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

It saddens my heart to see the reactions and thoughts of some people on this board, but it only strengthens my faith.

God is a jealous God. He is a perfect judge. Punishment comes from Sin. Many aspects of life we do not understand are not for us to understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 states that God knows secrets men will never be able to know, ever (paraphrasing, but still).

When you say vengeful, I believe you are correct, but only in justice. God is a perfect judge and any action that he takes is justified; but it is not in our ability to know what is justifiable.

In one aspect, you could say that yes he is. But you must remember that also, we (people) killed his one an only son! He could eliminate ALL of humanity and start the whole world over! If you were a father and someone killed your son, don't you think you would be vengeful? But he did not kill us. He gave us grace and mercy since we are yet sinners.

I believe the nature of God is shown to be probably not vengeful, but it is not up to me to decide.
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didnt the Noah's Ark Flood, the destruction of Sodom & Gmorrah, the 10 plagues happen before Jesus was killed? What is your explanaiton from that
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Sodom & Gomorrah is not applicable because Abraham reasoned with and beckoned him to NOT destroy Sodom & Gomorrah. Abraham says that if he finds 50 righteous people, will God not save the city? He eventually brings God down to 10. Then two angels come to Sodom & Gomorrah, as men in form, and the citizens want to have sex with the men (angels)! So obviously there was not ONE righteous or God-Fearing or "Christian" person inside of that town, so it must be destroyed for the sake of humanity.

The 10 plagues occured because God wanted the people of Egypt to understand the power and the might of God and not turn to Pharaoh for their authority. God always hardened Pharaohs heart so that the people of Egypt would listen to Moses and turn away from the Pharaoh. Basically, they followed him and believed him to be their authority and with the plagues came the knowledge that he was not the leader of everything. God wanted the people of Egypt to worship him.

The flood occured because "the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destory both them and the earth" (Genesis 6:11-13). He was smiting the land because of their horrendous demeanor towards him.

Vengeful carries negative tendancies. As I said, God is a perfect judge so his choices are justified because of his complete knowledge of justice and what is truely correct. The Holy Spirit, part of the triune God, is known as "The Spirit of Truth." God is truth and he knows what deserves what.
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so according to you... everyone that doesnt worship the GOD from the Bible, then they should be killed off...

the bolded part:
that is a good description of our world today. a whole bunch of violence with alot of corruption... so how should the big guy upstairs deal with the samesituation today
 
Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

It saddens my heart to see the reactions and thoughts of some people on this board, but it only strengthens my faith.

God is a jealous God. He is a perfect judge. Punishment comes from Sin. Many aspects of life we do not understand are not for us to understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 states that God knows secrets men will never be able to know, ever (paraphrasing, but still).

When you say vengeful, I believe you are correct, but only in justice. God is a perfect judge and any action that he takes is justified; but it is not in our ability to know what is justifiable.

In one aspect, you could say that yes he is. But you must remember that also, we (people) killed his one an only son! He could eliminate ALL of humanity and start the whole world over! If you were a father and someone killed your son, don't you think you would be vengeful? But he did not kill us. He gave us grace and mercy since we are yet sinners.

I believe the nature of God is shown to be probably not vengeful, but it is not up to me to decide.
Click to expand...
didnt the Noah's Ark Flood, the destruction of Sodom & Gmorrah, the 10 plagues happen before Jesus was killed? What is your explanaiton from that
Click to expand...
Sodom & Gomorrah is not applicable because Abraham reasoned with and beckoned him to NOT destroy Sodom & Gomorrah. Abraham says that if he finds 50 righteous people, will God not save the city? He eventually brings God down to 10. Then two angels come to Sodom & Gomorrah, as men in form, and the citizens want to have sex with the men (angels)! So obviously there was not ONE righteous or God-Fearing or "Christian" person inside of that town, so it must be destroyed for the sake of humanity.

The 10 plagues occured because God wanted the people of Egypt to understand the power and the might of God and not turn to Pharaoh for their authority. God always hardened Pharaohs heart so that the people of Egypt would listen to Moses and turn away from the Pharaoh. Basically, they followed him and believed him to be their authority and with the plagues came the knowledge that he was not the leader of everything. God wanted the people of Egypt to worship him.

The flood occured because "the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destory both them and the earth" (Genesis 6:11-13). He was smiting the land because of their horrendous demeanor towards him.

Vengeful carries negative tendancies. As I said, God is a perfect judge so his choices are justified because of his complete knowledge of justice and what is truely correct. The Holy Spirit, part of the triune God, is known as "The Spirit of Truth." God is truth and he knows what deserves what.
Click to expand...
so according to you... everyone that doesnt worship the GOD from the Bible, then they should be killed off...

the bolded part:
that is a good description of our world today. a whole bunch of violence with alot of corruption... so how should the big guy upstairs deal with the same situation today
Click to expand...
You're making the assumption that today's earth is just as bad as the one God saw fit to flood...

Yeah we have corruption and violence, but can you be sure--without a doubt--that earth today is just as awful as the one God saw fit to purge in the Bible...

Maybe we're close to being flooded again...(Global warming, 2012) we don't know...but you cant compare today's earth to the Old sinful testamentearth simply because you weren't there to experience that earth...

...
 
Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by CoolGrayGrey

It saddens my heart to see the reactions and thoughts of some people on this board, but it only strengthens my faith.

God is a jealous God. He is a perfect judge. Punishment comes from Sin. Many aspects of life we do not understand are not for us to understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 states that God knows secrets men will never be able to know, ever (paraphrasing, but still).

When you say vengeful, I believe you are correct, but only in justice. God is a perfect judge and any action that he takes is justified; but it is not in our ability to know what is justifiable.

In one aspect, you could say that yes he is. But you must remember that also, we (people) killed his one an only son! He could eliminate ALL of humanity and start the whole world over! If you were a father and someone killed your son, don't you think you would be vengeful? But he did not kill us. He gave us grace and mercy since we are yet sinners.

I believe the nature of God is shown to be probably not vengeful, but it is not up to me to decide.
Click to expand...
didnt the Noah's Ark Flood, the destruction of Sodom & Gmorrah, the 10 plagues happen before Jesus was killed? What is your explanaiton from that
Click to expand...
Sodom & Gomorrah is not applicable because Abraham reasoned with and beckoned him to NOT destroy Sodom & Gomorrah. Abraham says that if he finds 50 righteous people, will God not save the city? He eventually brings God down to 10. Then two angels come to Sodom & Gomorrah, as men in form, and the citizens want to have sex with the men (angels)! So obviously there was not ONE righteous or God-Fearing or "Christian" person inside of that town, so it must be destroyed for the sake of humanity.

The 10 plagues occured because God wanted the people of Egypt to understand the power and the might of God and not turn to Pharaoh for their authority. God always hardened Pharaohs heart so that the people of Egypt would listen to Moses and turn away from the Pharaoh. Basically, they followed him and believed him to be their authority and with the plagues came the knowledge that he was not the leader of everything. God wanted the people of Egypt to worship him.

The flood occured because "the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destory both them and the earth" (Genesis 6:11-13). He was smiting the land because of their horrendous demeanor towards him.

Vengeful carries negative tendancies. As I said, God is a perfect judge so his choices are justified because of his complete knowledge of justice and what is truely correct. The Holy Spirit, part of the triune God, is known as "The Spirit of Truth." God is truth and he knows what deserves what.
Click to expand...
so according to you... everyone that doesnt worship the GOD from the Bible, then they should be killed off...

the bolded part:
that is a good description of our world today. a whole bunch of violence with alot of corruption... so how should the big guy upstairs deal with the same situation today
Click to expand...
Me? I am simply relating what the Bible says, in my humble Christian interpretation and exegesis of such. I am not saying ANYTHING: I am merelyoffering what I believe to be a guided answer based on my ever increasing knowledge of the Bible itself and through the Holy Spirit's guidance. I have NOright to say who should be killed or who shouldn't be. All that I can do is tell it how it has been written.

In response to your second statement, why should we care? Why don't we care more about the way we SHOULD live? Follow Jesus, seek God, read the bible,disciple to others do what God commands us TO do instead of worry about what will happen to those that DON'T do what he says we should do. I'm notsaying there shouldn't be any thought or we should be mindless drones but this is what happens when you try to focus on things that you just cannotunderstand! It only will skew your image of God and really hurt your ability to come to him!

This is selfish, but you know what I would love? I would LOVE to see the world wiped out and I would LOVE to go to heaven and not have to worry about the crapthat goes on in the world and just be with God, forever! No more world! No more devilish crap that we have to deal with. But you know what, I can't dothat, so I'm just going to live my life the way HE wants me to live so that if he ever does decide to smite humanity, I'll be ready. In Phillipians1:23-24 it states "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far but it is more necessary for you that I remainin the body." So I must stay in this world and I must bear it out, as we all must.

Superantigen is correct in saying that there is no knowledge of how bad the earth actually was at the time. Valid point indeed.
 
Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Once again, God knowing our "future choices" and our "free will" are mutually exclusive. You're also basing your argument on the rational that HE has actively influenced us in our decisions and thus, this entity we call free will is a ruse...which is false--imo, granted I realize my opinion is just as hypothetical as yours because we cannot know anything for sure...

Just because he knows our path and our future choices doesn't mean free will in an inconsequential concept. Using your magician analogy. If you really think about it...the person that picked the card did so under free-will. They chose the card they wanted, not what the magician wanted. Granted, the magician knows all the cards in his deck just as God knows all the mysteries of the Universe. If anything is certain, it's that the magician has a greater awareness of his deck than the chooser just as God has a greater awareness of the Universe. But even so, he didn't take the chooser's hand and direct him/her to one of 54 cards in the deck...instead, the chooser--using their free will--made an unhindered decision as to which card to pick...

Just because our future choices are visible to Him, doesn't mean he constructed the path through which we traverse in life...

...
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Ok, so this is what you are saying...

Yes, God does know what you are going to do, but he does not cause you to do it. He just sits back and observes your actions. His omniscience andprior knowledge does not push you or cause you to do it or take whatever course of action.

So as we know it, God says we have free will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, withno coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us. On the other hand, God isomnipresent - the all-powerful - and he is omsniscient - the all-knowing. Furthermore, He is unlimited in his ability, and knows all that can be known.Youcannot do anything other than that which God already knows you are going to do. It is believed that right at the moment God created the whole universe, Hebeing the all-knowing KNEW all that would happen entire and throughout all its history and knows each individual will do. Correct? How is this notcontradictory and how does it make sense?

How can you have free will? Try to exert your free will right now. Can you surprise God? If you can, then God is not omniscient, and he is notall-knowing. And if he is not omniscient, then how can he be omnipotent, unlimited in his ability? If you cannot, then how can you think you have free will? If this is the case, then He is directly responsible for all our actions. This whole concept of omniscience of God and free will is completely contradictory.He created the universe and set it in motion, and as being the all-knowing, cannot mean we do have the free will. Believing in God's omniprescence andomniscience, this means we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy does.

Therefore, I rest my case that omniscience itself is a logical impossibility.
 
Afundamental tenet of our belief is that Allah is completely dissimilar to everything besides Him. He tells us in the Qur'an, "There is nothingwhatsoever like unto Him." (42:11). A consequence of this belief is that unlike human actions, divine actions are not driven by motives, because motivesonly make sense in the context of someone who is weak and needy.

To clarify this further, consider the following. When humans performactions, it makes sense to inquire what drove them to do so because, being the indigent beings that they are, they always act to fulfill certain needs. Forexample, Mike will put on a coat because the weather is cold and he needs warmth. Yasmine will eat food because she is hungry and needs nutrition. Robert willgo to university because he needs to earn a living through the degree that he will obtain. As you can see from these examples, the motives that people havebehind their actions betray their fundamental neediness.

Allah is the creator of everything and needs nothing. This is easy to statebut not so straightforward to comprehend. One of the implications of this absolute freedom from need of anything is that Allah is not driven by motives when Heacts. Someone who needs nothing can have no motives. To ask "why" Allah did something makes no sense at all. In the words of the Qur'an, "Heis not questioned regarding what He does, but they are questioned."

Allah has no need for our obedience and our disobedience does not harm Him.He does not need to reward us if we obey Him. And had He chosen to, He could have rewarded us for disobeying Him. This is why classical manuals of orthodoxSunni belief teach us that whenever Allah rewards someone, He does so out of His pure generosity; not because He is driven to do so by a need or because wehave a right to His reward. The question, "Why?" is inapplicable.

Similarly, Allah does not need to punish us if we disobey Him. And had Hechosen to, He could have punished us for obeying Him. This is why the same manuals also teach us that whenever Allah punishes someone, He is not wronging them,for they have no right over Him (recall that our obedience or disobedience does not affect Him). He punishes out of His pure justice. The question,"Why?" is inapplicable.

This is the backdrop against which we understand statements that seem toimply that Allah did a certain act for some reason. For example, when the Qur'an tells us that He created us to worship Him, this does not mean that Heneeded to be worshipped and therefore created us to fulfill this need. Instead, what He is telling us is that he created us with the capability to worship Himby giving us the ability to choose our actions.

Similarly, when Allah tells us that He created us to test us, this does notmean that He needs to test us in order to find out whether we will do good or evil. He already knows what we will do. Rather, our playing out the actions ofthis life is merely a proof for or against us on the Day of Judgment.

Allah created us and decreed that those of us who choose the actions of thepeople of Paradise will enter Paradise and those who choose the actions of the people of the Fire will enter the Fire. Because Allah is completely unlikeeverything else that exists, it does not make sense to ask why He did this. Rather, this is just how things are, and it is up to us to choose where we want togo.

In reality, the entire Sacred Law is a tremendous blessing for us in thislife and the next. Obligations that initially seem difficult to fulfill have a polishing effect on the heart until eventually the one's entire perspectivechanges. Outward submission leads to inward submission and heart fills with love and gratitude for Allah. Obligations are not meant to be hammered outreluctantly; they are meant to be offered in the spirit of heartfelt gratitude to Allah for the myriad blessings that each of us has been given. Someone who isrealized in this state will do everything for Allah; "worldly" activities such as eating, drinking, and conversing with friends are all performedwith the intention of drawing closer to Allah. Such a person will not worry over possible future problems, nor will he grieve over past difficulties, for he isbusy with the One he loves. This is true happiness and anyone who misses out on it will never know the meaning of contentment.
 
Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Once again, God knowing our "future choices" and our "free will" are mutually exclusive. You're also basing your argument on the rational that HE has actively influenced us in our decisions and thus, this entity we call free will is a ruse...which is false--imo, granted I realize my opinion is just as hypothetical as yours because we cannot know anything for sure...

Just because he knows our path and our future choices doesn't mean free will in an inconsequential concept. Using your magician analogy. If you really think about it...the person that picked the card did so under free-will. They chose the card they wanted, not what the magician wanted. Granted, the magician knows all the cards in his deck just as God knows all the mysteries of the Universe. If anything is certain, it's that the magician has a greater awareness of his deck than the chooser just as God has a greater awareness of the Universe. But even so, he didn't take the chooser's hand and direct him/her to one of 54 cards in the deck...instead, the chooser--using their free will--made an unhindered decision as to which card to pick...

Just because our future choices are visible to Him, doesn't mean he constructed the path through which we traverse in life...

...
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Ok, so this is what you are saying...

Yes, God does know what you are going to do, but he does not cause you to do it. He just sits back and observes your actions. His omniscience and prior knowledge does not push you or cause you to do it or take whatever course of action.

So as we know it, God says we have free will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us. On the other hand, God is omnipresent - the all-powerful - and he is omsniscient - the all-knowing. Furthermore, He is unlimited in his ability, and knows all that can be known.You cannot do anything other than that which God already knows you are going to do. It is believed that right at the moment God created the whole universe, He being the all-knowing KNEW all that would happen entire and throughout all its history and knows each individual will do. Correct? How is this not contradictory and how does it make sense?

How can you have free will? Try to exert your free will right now. Can you surprise God? If you can, then God is not omniscient, and he is not all-knowing. And if he is not omniscient, then how can he be omnipotent, unlimited in his ability? If you cannot, then how can you think you have free will? If this is the case, then He is directly responsible for all our actions. This whole concept of omniscience of God and free will is completely contradictory. He created the universe and set it in motion, and as being the all-knowing, cannot mean we do have the free will. Believing in God's omniprescence and omniscience, this means we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy does.

Therefore, I rest my case that omniscience itself is a logical impossibility.
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I've already gone through this "round" with EricBerry so rather than type out a whole new discussion...i'll just quote myself...

Free will is a "device" for humans...not a device for God. So HE knows what our outcomes will be, OK cool--that's a given and quite frankly, not what you should be focused on. What you should be focused on is YOU--DO YOU--simply because you don't know what your outcome will be. That's why free will is important and pertinent to the HUMAN SITAUTION, and not the GODLY-DIVINE situation.

Tell me, do you know whether you're going to hell or not--definitely NO. So over the course of your time here on earth, you owe it to yourself to do something to help you cause, or not...point is, you still have work to do and a life governed by free will to live. Just because HE knows the outcome doesn't make the situation less pertinent to you as a human...
Essentially, free will was constructed for the human complex and applies only to the human situation. Remember, we're all making greatassumptions in this thread concerning matters and entities that are beyond the scope of comprehension. One thing that you pointed out, and I notice a lot ofpeople doing, is referencing the inability of this whole divine dynamic to be subjugated by "logic". Which is silly imo.

You're using logic, which is far from absolute to begin with, to rationalize what is arguably, the "illogical"...you're using logic inassociation with what is imo, a "good" understanding of natural world syllogisms to try and subdue, interrogate, and comprehend what is practicallymetaphysical and divine in nature...surely you can see a problem here...

I mean, logically (
laugh.gif
), our logic is the best tool we possess but evenstill--discrediting concepts such as omniscience and omnipotence because they fail the "logic-test", the human logic test at that--you know, the onethat tells people that they are superior to others, or justifies things like genocide, slavery, and all other manners of crime and evil--is kinda sillydon't you think...

ohwell.gif


...
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I'm still waiting to hear God straight up. Not from books that have been written and altered by man. Not from natural disasters and tragicevents. Not from his baby momma poppin' up on toast, or statues of her crying. Just a straight up "this is why you are here" convo.

And I must say that having your son grow up as a carpenter only to end up being nailed to a piece of wood is just mean.
grin.gif
Twisted irony FTL.
 
I do feel God puts me on a path of good events, I just can not explain for the bad events, is this God speaking to me??? or "devil".......
 
There's a lot of Atheist on NT, and I don't knock you for it. But for the people that do believe in God, it feels like they are being ridicule, andthere are a thousand questions on why they believe in God. I'm gonna put myself out there, and I'm not trying to convert or anything because people gothrough different things in their lives. For me, I use to be an Atheist, and I just start believing in God. My God is not Allah, Jesus, Moses or Buddha. Hell,my God does not have any color or form. The dude( this can be a female too, God can be both) is a creator. To me, there is so much balance in theuniverse(multiverse) for it not to be a creator. How can we come out of nothing to be something??? I mean, if it's cold for one day there's gonna behot days. If you're poor in money, why are you rich in love? Now don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure there are people that will be hurtin till theydie, and then there are rich people that will be rich forever, In anycase, it balances out the universe( or multiverse). So how does things balance out soperfectly??? It feels like it's the Science camp vs. the Religion camp, but at the end of the day, they both relate to each other to me.

To me, Science is the language of God. Everytime, we discover something, it further proves that our life is like an atom in the universe and our time frame ofinfluence means nothing. But why do we follow a code??? It's because we know Humans are better than what we put out there. We have a higher conscience. Ittook us 500 years to know slavery was stupid, now we are on a higher frontier in this crucial time. It's all about resources in a time when resources arescarce. . How do we get out of this? Do we fight and kill each other??? Or do we use our higher conscience to prolong humanity????


Now to the answer to this thread, I think God is vengeful. God is the creator, and his wife is Mother Nature. God likes to sit on his ***, drink a couple ofbeers, and lets his wife handle everything. When we, her children, like to make Mother Nature mad, daddy( in this case,God) likes to step in and instigate hiswife( Mother Nature) to shake us up a bit. God is vengeful to me, he's like a higher force( in the words of SimplyDimply). When he feels we aredisappointing him, he thrashes on us. Just like the Raiders hurting my soul.
 
Originally Posted by bboy1827

Originally Posted by s0leFUNK

Here is one thing I like to say when people question "God"...

Do you really think that a supreme being such as "God" can be understood through human reasoning? If "God" is what he is painted out to be, confining "him" to human logic and emotions such as jealousy and anger would be insulting and degrading which in turn could be considered blasphemous..

But if you're not feelin that then "Everything happens for a reason..."
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That is such a weak argument. "We's be to stupid to understands what Gods is doings" WHY? no one said we are confining him. Logic has nothing to do with human emotion in fact it's the opposite. I don't get how we can think that we are to stupid to understand the world. I think through mathmatics and logic we can achieve anything.
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... we are talking about religion, here. How the hell am I supposed to present to you a "logical" argument?
eyes.gif

My point in saying that is if you are worried about how God is gonna act then your religion probably fears God. As such dont insult him by questioning him. Just follow the rules and be a good christian or whatever.

Also my personal gripe with religion is how it humanizes something as grand as the supreme being. Just another instance of humanity's ego where since wecan only reason on what we know it MUST be a strong basis for our arguments completely dismissing the possibility that we just cant understand it.

Mathematics and logic? Please... Mathematics in its more complex cases can only give us approximate answers while logic can only be subjected to what we knowat the moment. Two severe handicaps of our man-made systems.

But I'm with you man, GO HUMANS GO! Though I'm sure we will all dead by the time we find a mathematical proof or natural deduction that ultimatelyfinds a solution for world peace, famine, etc..
eyes.gif
 
Originally Posted by FromThaTown

There's a lot of Atheist on NT, and I don't knock you for it. But for the people that do believe in God, it feels like they are being ridicule, and there are a thousand questions on why they believe in God. I'm gonna put myself out there, and I'm not trying to convert or anything because people go through different things in their lives. For me, I use to be an Atheist, and I just start believing in God. My God is not Allah, Jesus, Moses or Buddha. Hell, my God does not have any color or form. The dude( this can be a female too, God can be both) is a creator. To me, there is so much balance in the universe(multiverse) for it not to be a creator. How can we come out of nothing to be something??? I mean, if it's cold for one day there's gonna be hot days. If you're poor in money, why are you rich in love? Now don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure there are people that will be hurtin till they die, and then there are rich people that will be rich forever, In anycase, it balances out the universe( or multiverse). So how does things balance out so perfectly??? It feels like it's the Science camp vs. the Religion camp, but at the end of the day, they both relate to each other to me.

To me, Science is the language of God. Everytime, we discover something, it further proves that our life is like an atom in the universe and our time frame of influence means nothing. But why do we follow a code??? It's because we know Humans are better than what we put out there. We have a higher conscience. It took us 500 years to know slavery was stupid, now we are on a higher frontier in this crucial time. It's all about resources in a time when resources are scarce. . How do we get out of this? Do we fight and kill each other??? Or do we use our higher conscience to prolong humanity????


Now to the answer to this thread, I think God is vengeful. God is the creator, and his wife is Mother Nature. God likes to sit on his ***, drink a couple of beers, and lets his wife handle everything. When we, her children, like to make Mother Nature mad, daddy( in this case,God) likes to step in and instigate his wife( Mother Nature) to shake us up a bit. God is vengeful to me, he's like a higher force( in the words of SimplyDimply). When he feels we are disappointing him, he thrashes on us. Just like the Raiders hurting my soul.
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You and me kinda have the same beliefs. God is simply a creator and a balancing force which regulates things ultimately for the better, I like tothink. And thats where it stops. IT doesn't get angry, has a plan for you, and all that jazz. Just live your life and hope its a good one.
 
god is the biggest killer in thee world... supposedly only 144,000 people will make it into heaven when YESHUA comes back.... lolololololololololol
 
Originally Posted by s0leFUNK

Originally Posted by bboy1827

Originally Posted by s0leFUNK

Here is one thing I like to say when people question "God"...

Do you really think that a supreme being such as "God" can be understood through human reasoning? If "God" is what he is painted out to be, confining "him" to human logic and emotions such as jealousy and anger would be insulting and degrading which in turn could be considered blasphemous..

But if you're not feelin that then "Everything happens for a reason..."
Click to expand...
That is such a weak argument. "We's be to stupid to understands what Gods is doings" WHY? no one said we are confining him. Logic has nothing to do with human emotion in fact it's the opposite. I don't get how we can think that we are to stupid to understand the world. I think through mathmatics and logic we can achieve anything.
Click to expand...
... we are talking about religion, here. How the hell am I supposed to present to you a "logical" argument?
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My point in saying that is if you are worried about how God is gonna act then your religion probably fears God. As such dont insult him by questioning him. Just follow the rules and be a good christian or whatever.

Also my personal gripe with religion is how it humanizes something as grand as the supreme being. Just another instance of humanity's ego where since we can only reason on what we know it MUST be a strong basis for our arguments completely dismissing the possibility that we just cant understand it.

Mathematics and logic? Please... Mathematics in its more complex cases can only give us approximate answers while logic can only be subjected to what we know at the moment. Two severe handicaps of our man-made systems.

But I'm with you man, GO HUMANS GO! Though I'm sure we will all dead by the time we find a mathematical proof or natural deduction that ultimately finds a solution for world peace, famine, etc..
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The answer to world peace is equal opportunity, doing away with religion and equal resources. We have found the answer to most of the worlds problems, peoplewon't accept them because of their own personal beliefs and religions. Man can solve man's problems, but man is to arrogant to put them into action.

Math isn't "man-made" Math was here before we were we just discovered it, we didn't create the fact that four right angles make a square, wedidn't create gravity we just gave it a name. Hopefully you get that, then you can understand why through logic and human reason we can discover the truth.
 
SuperAntigen - I guess that is where you and I differ on the topic. You are implying that since God is something beyond our explanation, thenthat means we cannot use our reasoning of how humans would operate or comprehend to explain the whole concept of omniscience vs. free will. I disagree though.But, I just want to say that I like your style and the way you present your arguments when discussing with someone with differing views. Very respectful andeloquent. I might disagree with you, but in a way, it gives me more of a challenge and I learn more through your different viewpoints.

I also wanted to add in general that I do consider myself agnostic. So, I am not an atheist, but I do believe something created this world. It couldbe anything or anyone, or just a force that did create it all. However, I just do not know what it is, and probably never will find out.

I do not know, maybe I am just a skeptic for now, and as I get older I will revert back to my background Islamic faith. Who knows? I do not know if I will besecure enough in myself when I am on my deathbed not believing in something so set like believing in organized faith and the security it gives us.
 
Hazeleyed Honey wrote:
SuperAntigen - I guess that is where you and I differ on the topic. You are implying that since God is something beyond our explanation, then that means we cannot use our reasoning of how humans would operate or comprehend to explain the whole concept of omniscience vs. free will. I disagree though. But, I just want to say that I like your style and the way you present your arguments when discussing with someone with differing views. Very respectful and eloquent. I might disagree with you, but in a way, it gives me more of a challenge and I learn more through your different viewpoints.

I also wanted to add in general that I do consider myself agnostic. So, I am not an atheist, but I do believe something created this world. It could be anything or anyone, or just a force that did create it all. However, I just do not know what it is, and probably never will find out.

I do not know, maybe I am just a skeptic for now, and as I get older I will revert back to my background Islamic faith. Who knows? I do not know if I will be secure enough in myself when I am on my deathbed not believing in something so set like believing in organized faith and the security it gives us.

If you don't mind me asking, what was it that made you wonder away from Islam?
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Here is my own view of God.

1. Big Bang is not god's doing
2. He created something that eventually EVOLVED into humans
3. He obviously didn't create everything, or is not all powerful
4. Bible, etc. are what he wants us to be but not what he expects us to be.
5. He loves gays just as much as straight people
6. He has no affect in how we live our life nor does he want to.
7. He lets us do what we want and just watches
8. Half the sins he "states" as sin, were not his view, it is the religion saying that is what he said
9. God does not punish people. Your own actions cause your punishment.
10. Fate is a coincidence not heaven sent
11. God will forgive almost anyone who tries to be the best they can be, and a valuable person to society
12. God does not believe in religion, he believes every person should be courteous and better themselves and those around them

I don't know about the afterlife, I would like to believe it exists, but I am not convinced of the hell part of it
 
lol...i love these god convos. And I love how people claim to be atheist but every holiday that rolls around they hop on the bandwagon to celebrate..how many"Atheists" in here celebrate Christmas,and claim they do it for the "kids"? Yeah right...

I would argue about the whole Christmas Doctrine within itself, but its not worth it.. People take the bible and twist it to fit their views. Some people flatout dont believe in God because thats the easy route to take.. Lol it boggles my mind how people can sit up there and discredit their creator and not give himhis due when and use science and numbers to discredit him when in actuality God is the creator of science and everything around us? Where did the Egyptians getthe idea of the calender and math? The movement of the sun!!!! Who created the sun and its orbit? Hmmm....Alrighty... the bible told us from the very beginningthat the earth is a circle...yet it took mankind hundreds of years to figure out that the earth wasn't flat...pure scientific genius right?

TOO much on this earth works harmoniously to not give one credit, as a matter of fact you could argue that mankind themselves are the only ones disrupting thatharmony in the first place because of people that think that they can rewrite history, hate each other, kill each other, take advantage of each other, which isguess what...against EVERYTHING GOD intended for mankind in the beginning
 
Originally Posted by HangTight

If you don't mind me asking, what was it that made you wonder away from Islam?
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I was in a long term relationship with a non-Islamic man (he was of a Roman Catholic background, but non-practicing and more agnostic), and itopened up my eyes to a lot about organized religion. One of the biggest burdens between him and I was that since I was of an Islamic background, my parentswould strongly disapprove and disown me if I were to marry him. So, I started to look at the bigger picture, think about religion, and do a lot of research. Igained so much knowledge through my research and saw what organized religion was truly created for and began to believe it was man-made. So, it was notcompletely that I was in an interfaith relationship that changed my perspective, but it did set it off.

I also just realized how organized religion was so judgemenal and it made people of different religions and backgrounds more divided rather than united. Theintolerance it breeds is just phenomenal and I think it is behind some of the rifts in spearheading wars and conflicts.
 
But if you want to make things complex--let me ask you this. How do you know if something is really "Good", and if something is really "Bad"--especially when you come to the realization that we live finite lives. We don't live long enough to actively and conclusively determine that something is Good or Bad. You would need to gauge an entire situation, and its effect and relation to all things and all people, over the entirety of what we call "TIME" in order to state and claim that something was Good or Bad. Of course that will never happen because we are finite organisms in a finite world trying to subdue and rationalize infinite concepts and entities.
Morality does NOT come from religion, nor from "God". If you believe it does, you are also admitting that you cannot be a"good" person without the help of "God" or religion.

You don't need to "live long enough to actively and conclusively determine that something is good or bad" in order to recognize immediateconsequences of an event nor your emotional attachment to it. Your argument fails to consider that giving something the title of "good" or"bad" does not mean that such a title is absolute and cannot change. Our morals are arbitrary and subject to change as proven by our history.
The real truth--I don't know. And neither will you. You're a 20something year old dude in Miami tryna figure out the grand design of the physical and metaphysical Universe by questioning a 22 year old student at Uconn.
I'd suggest you take some philosophy courses to help you understand the free will paradox, I'm sure Uconn offers them..

That's FAR from true, I feel dumber even for reading something your inane statement. Obviously your knowledge of the Bible is far from expansive. It says near the end of the New Testament that those who accept Christ as their savior go to heaven, but those who did not/have not will be judged by God according to their actions.

So does that mean that those who do accept Jesus christ as their savior DO NOT get judged on their actions?

Maybe we're close to being flooded again...(Global warming, 2012) we don't know...but you cant compare today's earth to the Old sinful testament earth simply because you weren't there to experience that earth...
Neither were those who wrote the bible...

This is selfish, but you know what I would love? I would LOVE to see the world wiped out and I would LOVE to go to heaven and not have to worry about the crap that goes on in the world and just be with God, forever! No more world! No more devilish crap that we have to deal with. But you know what, I can't do that, so I'm just going to live my life the way HE wants me to live so that if he ever does decide to smite humanity, I'll be ready. In Phillipians 1:23-24 it states "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." So I must stay in this world and I must bear it out, as we all must.
Thank you for proving what kind of Christian, you, and most other people are. You can continue to quote the bible and interpret morals and"hidden meanings" from a secondary source text, you can continue to call yourself a "Christian" (whatever that means these days) but at theend of the day, I'm sure it's as obvious to you as it is to me from reading your posts: you are following what is said in the bible because you needsomething to go by in your life, since you don't understand how certain things are or came to be you simply say "Oh that's right, it was God'sdoing" and call it a day, you continue to follow a religion based on your want to go to heaven and fear of going to hell...

Instead of doing all of the above, why not just approach the topic in a different way? Why not shed the fear that maybe after we die, we really don't go toa "heaven" or a "hell", that maybe we are the ones who decide what is moral and what isn't, and that those terms are completelyarbitrary and subject to change, that maybe the bible is not the true word of God and that it, alongside religions and Gods CAN and SHOULD be questionedinstead of taken on blindly?

I hope that with the displayed faith you have in your religion that you have at least considered and answered such questions before.

the bible told us from the very beginning that the earth is a circle...yet it took mankind hundreds of years to figure out that the earth wasn't flat...pure scientific genius right?
The bible also told you that the earth is merely a few thousand years old, as well as failed to mention many other things which you today, take asfact due to science...


To me, there is so much balance in the universe(multiverse) for it not to be a creator. How can we come out of nothing to be something???

Just because we cannot explain something yet (or maybe never will be able to) why must God be the final answer? Why do most people prefer to provide"God" as an answer to a question for which they have no answer?


This thread reeks of pseudo-intellect.
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