***Official Political Discussion Thread***

ballinsam23 said:
Oh the main racist of this forum would say that. "Only the weirdo Zionists fight" and "peaceful protestors"

Gotcha.

These are the posters being handed out today btw. I’m sure yall are the angels peacefully handing them out. Real peaceful message here.

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As the main person who supports a bum country killing civilians cuz they have the wackest military of this forum you should read this
 
RustyShackleford said:
me love nutella me love nutella your arguments sound just like Netanyahu's, but in reverse.
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I forgot to address this. For real? This is wild.

Again, there is NO equivalency between an oppressed people and their resistance to the power of their violent occupiers armed to the teeth.

The 1993 Oslo Accords did nothing but normalize Israeli apartheid, expanded illegal settlements and gave Israel more land grabs.

Israeli apartheid cannot be normalized anymore, and Middle Eastern stability cannot be achieved without Palestinian liberation.

When you're up against the most powerful entities, you can expect to create armed struggle, insurgencies and rebellions for liberation. That is the story as is old as our modern history, especially the turn of the century for decolonization. And ya, they're violent.

It was some white European atheist secular Jewish Zionists that tag teamed with psycho European Christian evangelical colonizers with the support of Western colonial powers that came to OUR LANDS and took it from us, and forcibly REMOVED us violently. We even sheltered European Jewish refugees in OUR HOMES, only for these same Holocaust survivors to lock us out and that still live in the homes that our grandparents built with their hands to this day.

Like I said, ya'll are quite idealistic thinking you stand with some higher moral ground in wanting us Palestinians to have no reaction and not resist our occupation and fight for our liberation.

So Israel wants Palestinians to renounce armed resistance when they sure as hell won't themselves. PLO's pacification only enboldened Israel and fortified Israeli apartheid.

Hamas learned from PLO's historic concession is that, actually renouncing armed resistance and accepting partition will NOT lead to liberation as it only lead to more further defeat and further compliance. Some of you think Israel has some moral conscience and acts in good faith. There can be no concession from a position of weakness, as was exemplied by the PLO. So here comes the push for concessions or negotiations from the possession of armed resistance.
 
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me love nutella said:
So, the narrative out there that was propped up by western and Israeli propaganda is their aim was to maximize civilian deaths.

But, the aim was to attack military bases and take hostages (even that is a war crime too, as well). Due to Israel lying so much, we will never know how many were also killed by IDF. I have seen many documented Israeli interviews and reports where they were given orders to target everyone, Israelis concluded, and basically conducted the Hannibal Directive. I even heard a family member of an Israeli captive recall they used this Directive.
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me love nutella said:
But yes, Hamas members committed war crimes when unarmed civilians were killed, but I don't buy the narrative that they killed all those civilians without IDF killing quite a bit of them as well from the sources I gathered.

I just think Israeli's terrorism created this scenario and it was a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. Hamas' attack grew out of Israel's decades-long failed strategy of "mowing the grass" in Gaza, every few years, the brutal blockade, and also Israeli's violence in the West Bank. Israel's siege on Gaza attempted to both contain and deter Hamas in Gaza, while simultaneously not addressing any of the underlying economic and political conditions that had helped bring Hamas into power and keep it there. The root cause is the occupation and blockade. While Hamas's core supporters may not have changed, a more far-sighted Israeli policy could have at least undercut Hamas's popular support.

So, what did you expect from a strategy Palestinian armed strategists to do ? Israel's plan is to annex the Gaza Strip and never provide Palestinians sovereignty or self determination. Netanyahu and his gang were espousing this for years boldly and out loud. The 2 state solution was always a sham.

Supposedly, 70% of Hamas fighters are orphaned men, and so Israel just created more Hamas for generations to come.
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-I can do basic math. Way more civilians died on Oct 7th and hostages were taken. Seems like the defense of Hamas here is that they are just incompetent. Which to me is not convincing.

-The Israeli far-right likes having a murderous far-right counterpart. Both sides want the fighting to continue. Of course, Israel's actions are going to create more people for Hamas to recruit. Then those groups will strike at Israel, and hardliners in Israel will have the political capital to attack Palestinians. This is a horrible feedback loop to be stuck in.

That is why I think supporting Hamas and defending them is just supporting this feedback loop to continue.

Israel isn't going anywhere, Palestine isn't going anywhere, and I don't see letting the extremists be in charge as a sustainable way for them to coexist. Just seems like a way to me for more people to die.
 
me love nutella said:
I forgot to address this. For real? This is wild.

Again, there is NO equivalency between an oppressed people and their resistance to the power of their violent occupiers armed to the teeth.

The 1993 Oslo Accords did nothing but normalize Israeli apartheid, expanded illegal settlements and gave Israel more land grabs.

Israeli apartheid cannot be normalized anymore, and Middle Eastern stability cannot be achieved without Palestinian liberation.

When you're up against the most powerful entities, you can expect to create armed struggle, insurgencies and rebellions for liberation. That is the story as is old as our modern history, especially the turn of the century for decolonization. And ya, they're violent.

It was some white European atheist secular Jewish Zionists that tag teamed with psycho European Christian evangelical colonizers with the support of Western colonial powers that came to OUR LANDS and took it from us, and forcibly REMOVED us violently. We even sheltered European Jewish refugees in OUR HOMES, only for these same Holocaust survivors to lock us out and that still live in the homes that our grandparents built with their hands to this day.

Like I said, ya'll are quite idealistic thinking you stand with some higher moral ground in wanting us Palestinians to have no reaction and not resist our occupation and fight for our liberation.

So Israel wants Palestinians to renounce armed resistance when they sure as hell won't themselves. PLO's pacification only enboldened Israel and fortified Israeli apartheid.

Hamas learned from PLO's historic concession is that, actually renouncing armed resistance and accepting partition will NOT lead to liberation as it only lead to more further defeat and further compliance. Some of you think Israel has some moral conscience and acts in good faith. There can be no concession from a position of weakness, as was exemplied by the PLO. So here comes the push for concessions or negotiations from the possession of armed resistance.
Click to expand...
I said your arguments

I am talking about how you frame the situation to justify bad acts.

If you listen to Bibi speak, he frames Jews as historically oppressed people, making everything they do justified for their protection.
That the actions of the extremists are in some ways justified because they represent the will of the public.

I can agree with everything you say regarding Israel's treatment of the Palestinians

That doesn't mean I am going to be cool with innocent people dying, no matter if they are Israeli Jews.

You are saying that Hamas is doing to Israel because look what they do to the Palestinians. Bibi is saying we are doing what they are doing because look what they did to us.

Every rocket that is shot into Israel gives Bibi the political capital to say "If we don't do what we are doing (oppress Palestinians), they will genocide us". That is why he likes having Hamass around, because Hamas stupidly reinforces his arguments.

Just like accepting the framing of the worst actors in this situation when the conversation seems stuck on defending violence.
 
RustyShackleford said:
I said your arguments

I am talking about the syntax of your words, how you frame the situation to justify bad acts.

If you listen to Bibi speak, he frames Jews as historically oppressed people, making everything they do justified for their protection.
That the actions of the extremists are in some ways justified because they represent the will of the public.

I can agree with everything you say regarding Israel's treatment of the Palestinians

That doesn't mean I am going to be cool with innocent people dying, no matter if they are Israeli Jews.

Just like accepting the framing of the worst actors in this situation.
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But that's the contradictions right? But Netanyahu is from the class of the oppressor and occupier.

I think hopefully many of us don't agree to innocent civilians killed.

I just said there's no equivalency between Hamas and Israel on many different levels and metrics. This goes for any armed struggles and movements for liberation around the globe to equate the armed struggle of a colonized or occupied people to the military power of the colonizer and occupier, whether that's Ukrainians or Palestinians.
 
me love nutella said:
Like I said, ya'll are quite idealistic thinking you stand with some higher moral ground in wanting us Palestinians to have no reaction and not resist our occupation and fight for our liberation.
Click to expand...

What is your ideal outcome of the current war? A single Palestinian state?

I’m not seeing how Rusty is being idealistic when you’re backing/justifying Hamas’s terrorist attacks on the basis of “they represent the oppressed, so it’s okay to kill some of the oppressor’s civilians”.

Especially when Bibi has explicitly stated that he values Israel lives at more than 100-1 over Palestinians. It’s a vile and depraved stance but this has been known for many years. Hamas had to know that their attack would lead to horrifying numbers of Palestinian casualties in the weeks/months to follow. Yet you continue to push ideas that this was justified - are you not far more idealist than anything Rusty has said on the subject?

There’s resistance and then there’s foolishness. I’m not going to deny an oppressed group their opportunity for resistance but like what is the feasible outcome here?
 
me love nutella said:
But that's the contradictions right? But Netanyahu is from the class of the oppressor and occupier.
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Many people around the world who support Israel make the same bad arguments

The Pro-Israel counter protestors at college campuses use them

I just picked him because I felt using him might give you some pause. I was wrong.

me love nutella said:
I think hopefully many of us don't agree to innocent civilians killed.
Click to expand...

But only one of us is downplaying

me love nutella said:
I just said there's no equivalency between Hamas and Israel on many different levels and metrics. This goes for any armed struggles and movements for liberation around the globe to equate the armed struggle of a colonized or occupied people to the military power of the colonizer and occupier, whether that's Ukraine or Palestinians.
Click to expand...
They are moral equivalents, they are ideological equivalents.

I find it hard to believe that if the roles were reversed, that Hamas would show more restraint than the right-wing Israeli government.

And Bibi has exploited that feeling for political gain. And Hamas helps him.

The death toll being heavily Jewish/Isareli instead of Arab/Palestinian would not be a net improvement to me since I value both lives equally.

More generally I want the death toll to decrease, the Palestinians to have their own state, Israeli and Palestinian people to feel safe, and there to be some sort of sustainable peace.

I feel people like the Hamas leaders and Bibi actively work against this.
 
me love nutella said:
I think what some with your viewpoint don't understand is that the West and Israel never wanted and never will give Palestinians their full sovereignty or self determination even as they accepted a 2 state solution.
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There are multiple aspects on how you define full sovereignty:
- If you mean the entirety of Mandatory Palestine, that's not gonna happen - willingly, especially with Israel being a much stronger neighbor than 40-50 years ago.
- If you mean full control of 1967 Palestinian territory, you can't expect the initial conditions of a peace deal to include a militarized Palestine. However, these particular conditions are much more flexible and are highly subject to circumstances in time and space.

Moreover, Israel has returned land conquered from Egypt; they're still holding onto the Golan Heights because they're at war with Syria. Nobody recognizes the illegal settlements of the WB. There's precedent to the concept that Israel can give back their military gains; however, the more time passes, the more time they get to establish "facts on the ground." And that's the part you're not acknowledging: you're not just fighting the IDF, you're also fighting against time.
 
MakeNTGreatAgain said:
By this same logic you must admit that Israels offensive is also not a military offensive due to the sheer amount of civilian casualties, correct ?
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Every single rocket being fired from Gaza since way before 10/7 is into Israeli civilian neighborhoods. Not military bases or IDF posts.

There is no point of going back and forth about this with you.

You've already proved in DMs you cant have unbiased debates about this topic and are a racist scum pretending to be some veteran.
 
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