Originally Posted by CP1708
Here’s my thing on that line of thinking tho. To say Qui Gon is one of the few that “got it”………I mean, it’s the Jedi Order. 10,000 strong. Centuries of beliefs, and traditions. And QUI GON, gets it? The guy that defied the order. The guy that cheated in a random gambling situation with Watto. And in terms of the movie itself, the one that had absolutely nothing worth saying, and was more Jedi in Batman Begins? (he was severely misused in Phantom, the whole story they put him thru was terrible) But, let’s say for this sake you are right, and he’s “wiser/better” than the others. The next point then is…….
Phantom is with Anakin at 8. Attack of the Clones is Anakin at 18. And Sith is Anakin at roughly 23 or so. That’s 15 years later. Anakin knew Qui Gon for a few days, maybe weeks if we stretch it. He spent 15 years with Obi Wan. I can’t sit back and say that Qui Gon dying is what changed the fate of Anakin.
He’s put under Obi Wan at 8 years old, so to say it starts the moment he is under Obi Wan is a big stretch.
Again, the OG from Ben’s own mouth is “I tried to train Anakin on my own” after telling Luke he needs to go train with Yoda, the Jedi Master that instructed him. Yet somehow Lucas goes to write Ep I, and inserts somebody named Qui Gon into the role. That right there is the problem. He tried to add story, when he didn’t need to. Qui Gon was so important, that Ben never mentions him to Luke, and George kills him in the first film, after he just met Anakin? He’s that instrumental into Anakin’s fate that those things happen? I’m not asking you to agree or disagree with George or his writing, I’m asking you to think of the story logically, from 1977 to 1999. He tried to alter the story that he himself had set up 2 decades earlier, and tried to fill in gaps, so to speak. He should have kept it, simply, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not insert Qui Gon into the mix, make him seem really important, only his actions say otherwise as he kills him off with ease. When you think about it, Phantom is set up to be so majestic, that he introduced Obi, Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, Padme, but kills both Maul and Qui Gon immediately. A horrible, horrible decision.
What I liked, from Sith, he only dabbled in, and that was the Council not letting Anakin become a Master. THAT, is EXACTLY what they should have focused on, much earlier. When I’ve talked with you (and everyone else in here) about the prequels, and the problems I have with it story wise, the “suddenness” you’re referring to is midway thru the final film, Anakin Skywalker is STILL GOOD. He’s still a Jedi. He’s in love with his wife. He’s going to be a father. He loves Obi Wan. When they are saying goodbye, he tells Obi Wan he’s sorry, and he’s been impatient, and he’s thankful for him and all that. 20 minutes later, he’s trying to kill him. Look at that man. Just look at it. I hate that that is how it went down. I understand that’s how it had to happen, because George put himself into that box. He wasted too much time earlier. Had he not dealt with that lazy stuff in Phantom, he could have had the entire 3rd film be Anakin’s descent. He could have spent 2-2.5 hours focused on him not being allowed to be a master, on some issue with Obi Wan, not just he had bad dreams and decided to follow Palpatine. It is such a waste of time and storytelling. We should/could have had 3 films on the adult transformation of Anakin. Phantom could have been teenage Anakin and the beginning stuff takes place there, the clone wars stuff in 2, and the complete descent in 3. He was still working on Clone Wars stuff at the start of 3, and still introducing characters. (Grievous) Like, what???
He did the best he could, he closed the story well, the ending was beautiful, he tied several smaller loose ends like Obi Wan grabbing Anakins lightsaber, he did a good job closing it down, but he left sooooooooooo much out there. Yes, I know your point on his story, vs what I wanted, but that’s just it, this all stems from 1977, 1980, and 1983. The story that he had Obi Wan tell, in those films. That Yoda told, in those films. He then tries to adjust 20 years later to fit in some new pieces. I’m asking you, if Qui Gon is so important to the theme, overall story of Anakin, why zero mention in the OG trilogy, and then dead in the first movie of the prequels? Is that not a waste? Darth Maul, absolute terror. Nightmare version of a Sith. Rage for days. A PLAGUE on the universe he was so evil, and so skilled. He killed a single Jedi and died. I mean……….
I want to cry just thinkin about that man. Maul could have been a freaking SAVAGE, for 3 damn films, and ultimately, Anakin could have killed him, and that becomes the step to standing by Palpatines side. Coulda gone a million ways. But just in terms of working with what we were given, how vital are Qui Gon and Maul, really, when they are dead with less than an hour and a half of screen time? (sadly, much much shorter for Maul)
I do like your Jedi fear and mistrust leads Anakin to the darkside. In theory, I like that. I will think on that. But again, screentime, with the clock ticking, and 20-30 minutes left in the film, the final film for all time for all we knew in 2005, he’s still a good guy, a hero, a Jedi. Then he turns. That’s the suddenness that bothers me. Had the entire third film (the third act if you will) been Anakin as a Sith apprentice, then we would have truly had something. That iconic scene, of Vader standing next to the Emperor, arms folded, smile on Palpatine’s face, imagine, just imagine if that was the close to the second film, and not the third.
Imagine the hype that would have come for #3. Imagine the carnage that they could have delved into in the final film. The story we were told in 1977. But he went back and for some reason changed, for Jar Jar, and podraces, and 8 year olds, etc. Stuff we absolutely did not need to see. He could have given us what his original story was when this all began. That, to me, is where the suddenness comes from. Not the moment Qui Gon dies, and 15 years later Anakin turns to the Darkside. That’s a huge stretch, for a Jedi that Anakin barely knew, when he was then raised and trained by Obi Wan, and somehow decides to try and kill him with a half hour left in the series.
There was some stuff in the Sith book that I wish would have made it to the film. Some dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin that wasn’t in the movie, some real good stuff, but obviously they didn’t have 4 hours to complete the film, so it may have just been added for the book purposes, I don’t know. I haven’t read it in several years, so it’s a little foggy to me now, but it was on some mind bending **** he was great at. Another piece I really, really wish would have been expanded was the Qui Gon/Maul fight with the shields. The way Qui Gon went to his knees and meditated, versus the pacing that Maul did like a damn caged animal. That was such a beautiful way to show Jedi vs Sith idealisms, I wanted that grown and fleshed out so much more. And while I’m sittin here, how do we go from Maul, to 82 year old Dokuu? What kind of **** is that in terms of Sith/Dark Jedi, however you want to classify them? I hated that in terms of adversary. During the era of the Clone Wars/10,000 Jedi strong, I needed some true threats in the Sith, like Palpatine, not a true warrior dead in 20 minutes, and a geriatric that steals the lightning bit we’d already been shown in 1983.
And I mean, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes…..” Is, an absolute. What in the hell man?
And before everyone starts gettin excited, I got nothin against NT23, we simply disagree on some things in terms of Lucas and what not, but both of us are all in on the franchise itself, just in different ways. We battle things out, bicker and argue, but I don’t have anything against the man personally or anything like that, I argue with everyone like this. I’m an *** hole, not really a secret or anything.
You guys always tellin me to calm down, or relax, I’m not even goin nuts or anything when we go at it, just me typin up some thoughts on a franchise I’m fairly well versed in. Same as I would do for my Dolphins, or Cubs, or Lakers, etc.