2013 Lexus LS 460 F-Sport

[sniper]

Also. The reason why BMW is the leading seller in the 'luxury' market is not purely because of leases, but because it sets a standard for any and all automobiles. Want to know why so many leases? It's because BMW is always ahead of the curve and when they develop & release something new, previous owners tend to lease yet another one for those vary reasons. Consumers have options and are not forced to buy a specific vehicle. If other companies were vastly superior, how come their leasing tactics fail in comparison? It's not like BMW is the only one offering leasing specials. MB, Audi, etc. set competitively priced vehicles in the same market and still fall behind. You sell a quality product. You receive a quality audience...

The reason why MB produces particular upscale vehicles in a class of their own is because they have to. They've tried directly competing with BMW and statistics proved that they would not sustain at that level. As mentioned, BMW doesn't have to enter that realm. They're covering the marquee market already. MB is still a luxury company and I'd gladly purchase one again, but they can't touch BMW's market. If I'm not mistaken, BMW is still unbeaten in the International Engine of the Year for 4, 6 & 8-cylinders. They won, what? 3-4 awards this year? I know MB didn't take home anything...

Ohh yeah. To keep this on topic. The new LS is ugly. However, Lexus does have the best customer service...

 

[rfx45]

Also. The reason why BMW is the leading seller in the 'luxury' market is not purely because of leases, but because it sets a standard for any and all automobiles. Want to know why so many leases? It's because BMW is always ahead of the curve and when they develop & release something new, previous owners tend to lease yet another one for those vary reasons. Consumers have options and are not forced to buy a specific vehicle. If other companies were vastly superior, how come their leasing tactics fail in comparison? It's not like BMW is the only one offering leasing specials. MB, Audi, etc. set competitively priced vehicles in the same market and still fall behind. You sell a quality product. You receive a quality audience...

This is true to an extent. BMW has made huge strides in improving their quality but BMW is mostly leased because people love BMWs but they do not want to deal with it once the free maintenance expires and it starts having problems once the warranty is over.

BMW does excel in performance and the 3-series and 5-series has been the industry standard for more than a decade now but the people who brags about it in the BMW forum and upgrades are a very small percentage of the populous, most who owns it could care less about it's overall performance. Nothing to take away from BMW because they are who every automakers stride for but it isn't exactly due to quality.

Look at KBBs current resale value award, the luxury brand belongs to Lexus. By vehicle category, Audi wins the luxury SUV and luxury car with the Q7 and A5. IS would have won the luxury car but they categorized it as "near-luxury". Look at the whole list and you won't see any sign of BMW in there. I'm not saying BMWs resale value is the worst but it certainly isn't the best and that is one of the reason they are leased more often.

Going back to the brand of the car and not it all being about performance that sells the car, let's admit it that these car companies compete in sales in their entry-level vehicles (ie: IS, 3-series, C-Class, A4, etc...) and that can make or break the sales of the brand especially here in the US. In 2011, I believe BMW and Benz beat Lexus' decade of reign in the US because of the sale of the 3-series and Benz's new C-Class while Lexus loss is mainly due to the earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Also the IS is becoming stale and really just due for a new version. I believe Lexus is recovering this year with the help of the new RX and GS and even with the new 3-series, it looks like Lexus might be on pace to taking it's crown back in the US.

 

[friscosfinest]

Also. The reason why BMW is the leading seller in the 'luxury' market is not purely because of leases, but because it sets a standard for any and all automobiles. Want to know why so many leases? It's because BMW is always ahead of the curve and when they develop & release something new, previous owners tend to lease yet another one for those vary reasons. Consumers have options and are not forced to buy a specific vehicle. If other companies were vastly superior, how come their leasing tactics fail in comparison? It's not like BMW is the only one offering leasing specials. MB, Audi, etc. set competitively priced vehicles in the same market and still fall behind. You sell a quality product. You receive a quality audience...
The reason why MB produces particular upscale vehicles in a class of their own is because they have to. They've tried directly competing with BMW and statistics proved that they would not sustain at that level. As mentioned, BMW doesn't have to enter that realm. They're covering the marquee market already. MB is still a luxury company and I'd gladly purchase one again, but they can't touch BMW's market. If I'm not mistaken, BMW is still unbeaten in the International Engine of the Year for 4, 6 & 8-cylinders. They won, what? 3-4 awards this year? I know MB didn't take home anything...
Ohh yeah. To keep this on topic. The new LS is ugly. However, Lexus does have the best customer service...

Thank the lord someone here can back me up. Not sure where these benz fans think they outclass BMW. Maybe in luxury, but in overall terms, theres NO contest. All of a sudden people start noticing MB and their front LED lights and now they are the best german cars? LOL.

To keep this on topic, I believe the last review I read placed the 5 series 1st, 2nd the Lexus GS THEN the E class. It's a scary world when Lexus is being compared to BMW and MB, especially when its being rated ahead of one of them! Lexus has always been that dark horse team IMO. Always kind of doing its own thing, and doing it well. Now its sitting next to the big boys, and deservedly so. They have a great lineup and are good looking cars. They have great aftermarket support too. Audi has been creeping up for the last 5-7 years too. Although I dislike their A4.

 

[rfx45]

To keep this on topic, I believe the last review I read placed the 5 series 1st, 2nd the Lexus GS THEN the E class. It's a scary world when Lexus is being compared to BMW and MB, especially when its being rated ahead of one of them! Lexus has always been that dark horse team IMO. Always kind of doing its own thing, and doing it well. Now its sitting next to the big boys, and deservedly so. They have a great lineup and are good looking cars. They have great aftermarket support too. Audi has been creeping up for the last 5-7 years too. Although I dislike their A4.

You'd be surprised, plenty of reviews out there are ranking the GS above the 5-series. Lexus/Toyota is really trying to get back to it's motorsports roots. The LFA seemed like a joke at first with it's ridiculous price but it was more of a way to say, "hey, we can do this thing, we are capable!" Then the ISF came out with it's V8 and overpowering it's competition (at the time of it's release) with an 8-speed auto trans. Then the F-Sport came out along with it and has transformed the IS into a much more fun vehicle (I have a 2007 IS250 and drove a 2012 IS250 F-Sport and the difference is like night and day, the IS350 F-Sport is like the IS250 on steroids and the most recent, updated ISF is like the IS250 on steroids and ecstasy). Then the Toyobaru with the FRS/BRZ came oout and even though it is underpowered, the accolades are simply over flowing for it. Then the GS350 F-Sport actually being enjoyable for once and beat 5-series and E-Class and you start to notice that Toyota/Lexus is serious about reclaiming some motorsport prestige.

 

[friscosfinest]

^ Nice! I've always had a huge crush on the IS350. It just had that agressive yet quiet look to it. If they could update it with a more potent (and fuel efficient) engine, I would definately consider getting one in a year or two. Plus that F-Sport Blue makes my undies wet.

I think Lexus has the best paint jobs (and colors) out of any manufacturer.

They have the glacier frost white color.. that dark cherry red on the ISF, and the blue on the ISF are 3 of the best colors ive ever seen on ANY car.

 

[sniper]

This is true to an extent. BMW has made huge strides in improving their quality but BMW is mostly leased because people love BMWs but they do not want to deal with it once the free maintenance expires and it starts having problems once the warranty is over.
BMW does excel in performance and the 3-series and 5-series has been the industry standard for more than a decade now but the people who brags about it in the BMW forum and upgrades are a very small percentage of the populous, most who owns it could care less about it's overall performance. Nothing to take away from BMW because they are who every automakers stride for but it isn't exactly due to quality.
Look at KBBs current resale value award, the luxury brand belongs to Lexus. By vehicle category, Audi wins the luxury SUV and luxury car with the Q7 and A5. IS would have won the luxury car but they categorized it as "near-luxury". Look at the whole list and you won't see any sign of BMW in there. I'm not saying BMWs resale value is the worst but it certainly isn't the best and that is one of the reason they are leased more often.
Going back to the brand of the car and not it all being about performance that sells the car, let's admit it that these car companies compete in sales in their entry-level vehicles (ie: IS, 3-series, C-Class, A4, etc...) and that can make or break the sales of the brand especially here in the US. In 2011, I believe BMW and Benz beat Lexus' decade of reign in the US because of the sale of the 3-series and Benz's new C-Class while Lexus loss is mainly due to the earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Also the IS is becoming stale and really just due for a new version. I believe Lexus is recovering this year with the help of the new RX and GS and even with the new 3-series, it looks like Lexus might be on pace to taking it's crown back in the US.

Although I agree that a large amount of BMW owners purchase them for the sake of status, that in of itself defines why the brand is leading the industry. If it were a gimmick or fad, then it has been circulating for quite awhile fooling thousands of consumers. However, that's not the case. You don't get to that premier level by just having/providing the basics. If BMW didn't continually revolutionize their vehicles, they would not have consistent top-sales. I take it you've never experienced/owned a bimmer as you are clearly wrong on assuming there are problems once the maintenance plan has expired? I think you are confusing the cost of standard maintenance with malfunctions or longevity. I've debated BMWs already in several threads and there is always that stigma of them being unreliable cars. For a company annually leading sales and awards, this reliability issue seems to be brought up a lot. I know the E92 made it into Edmunds 2012s Top Best Used Cars. I don't recall seeing a Lexus or MB in the lineup. Ironic. No? Don't get me wrong. BMW has had it's fair share of unreliable automobiles, but those are specific vehicles and isolated incidents into that specific sector. Just as I can say that BMW had it's problems, I can gladly name many recalls of both economy and luxury companies as well. As I've stated many times over; if you don't exert the basic necessities of properly maintaining your vehicle, it will have problems. That goes for any and all vehicles. Maintaining bimmers are somewhat costly, but if you can afford one, you most likely can afford their proprietary products...

Just as you state that a small percentage care about performance, the same can be said for every other luxury brand. I don't know what you're getting at, but if you don't implement those features, you're simply basing views from an aesthetic standpoint. If that's the case, it's subjective and BMW would still be leading based on that assertation...

Majority of luxury car owners don't buy/lease a car for resale value. That's in it's own category. You want high resale, buy a Honda or Subaru. To say BMWs are leased because of resale value is actually pretty ridiculous. Most BMWs are leased because consumers want the latest and don't want to be tied to a car forever. It's like clothes. I can buy a nice suit, but I won't wear that same suit everyday if I can afford to buy a nicer/newer one. You need to understand. The luxury market is vastly different from the economical. Considering you're referring to leases, leased vehicles actually deal with residual values and CPO'd vehicles do rather well. With that said, MB, BMW & Audi trade places typically between spots 4-6 while Lexus is consistently at 1 or 2. But are they leading in luxury sales/leases? Nope. They have high resale because an average Lexus owner will own his or her car longer than that of a BMW, MB, etc. owner. That's for various reasons from cheaper maintenance to just not being able to afford to annually lease another vehicle. Simply put. Lexus' are elite Toyotas. They share a lot(engineers, designers, parts, etc.). That includes equivalent maintenance. I know LS and GS models are made in the same Toyota Tahara plant and they undergo the same build. If you own a Lexus. Look at your windshield. It says 'Toyota' right on it. Lexus takes it advancement in technology. Other than that, it's still a Toyota and honestly, that's why it's still under the radar when people get into the essence of what a true luxury vehicle is and not a shared shell of a former or equivalent vehicle...

p.s. Lexus isn't taking the crown anytime soon...

 

[sniper]

^ Nice! I've always had a huge crush on the IS350. It just had that agressive yet quiet look to it. If they could update it with a more potent (and fuel efficient) engine, I would definately consider getting one in a year or two. Plus that F-Sport Blue makes my undies wet.

I think Lexus has the best paint jobs (and colors) out of any manufacturer.

They have the glacier frost white color.. that dark cherry red on the ISF, and the blue on the ISF are 3 of the best colors ive ever seen on ANY car.

I can agree with this. BMWs are synonymous with 'orange peel', but they've been getting better...

 

[al audi]

kinda off topic but

that mercedes benz CLA if it looks like anything like the concept pics is gonna crap on Audi and BMW

is it 3 series price range?

 

[reeeem0]

Im in a Lexus thread reading about German cars.....


Im going to the booty thread.

 

[rfx45]

I take it you've never experienced/owned a bimmer as you are clearly wrong on assuming there are problems once the maintenance plan has expired? I think you are confusing the cost of standard maintenance with malfunctions or longevity.

Ummmm, I've owned an E46 and currently own a Z4. I know a lot of people with BMWs that has had problems once it hits 4 years old. And no, I am not confusing the standard maintenance because it's been free for a couple of years now. And I know a lot of girls who has/owns entry level luxury cars (IS, C-Class, 3-Series, etc...) so I know how reliable these cars can get, my IS250 is almost 5 years old now and not a single problem has occurred, there was a recall but I just brought it during an oil change interval and got a loaner, no big deal at all. One of my best friend (girl) has had her E90 in the shop 3 times for warranty work in the 3 years she's owned it until she gave back after the lease.

I know plenty of rich dudes who lease BMWs but purchase Lexus for their kids and wives. And this is coming from guys who own Astons, Ferraris, Porsche, etc...

I know the E92 made it into Edmunds 2012s Top Best Used Cars. I don't recall seeing a Lexus or MB in the lineup. Ironic. No?

Not ironic at all, more people tend to lease it so there are a lot more used ones out there to sell. Again, this is by experience and look at the #1 leased vehicle, a 3-Series: http://autos.aol.com/gallery/top-ten-most-leased/

BMW has had it's fair share of unreliable automobiles, but those are specific vehicles and isolated incidents into that specific sector.

Not isolated, BMWs fuel pump problem has ran rampant on a lot of their cars. It was a problem on the M3, E90 and it is one of the most complained about problem on the current Z4 (I own one and a member of several boards so I know this).

Just as you state that a small percentage care about performance, the same can be said for every other luxury brand. I don't know what you're getting at, but if you don't implement those features, you're simply basing views from an aesthetic standpoint. If that's the case, it's subjective and BMW would still be leading based on that assertation...

You are taking what I am saying all wrong. I said BMW is the best and the top echelon when it comes to performance but a very small percentage goes "I want that 328i because it is the fastest to 60!". It has to look good and has to have that name. And yes that is saying something about BMW for people coveting it as a top luxury brand, no one said it was hype or fad. No need to put words into my mouth.

Majority of luxury car owners don't buy/lease a car for resale value. That's in it's own category. You want high resale, buy a Honda or Subaru. To say BMWs are leased because of resale value is actually pretty ridiculous. Most BMWs are leased because consumers want the latest and don't want to be tied to a car forever.

Bro, that is BS. Like I said, the majority of sales are on entry level vehicles, most people buy entry level because they want that luxury feel but w/o paying the highest premiums. People doesn't want to be tied to the car forever? Toyota has been the top car manufacturer for years now and they do it with reliability, not because of performance (they barely started making driver oriented cars again) nor looks (Toyota cars aren't ugly but they aren't the best looking). I mean look at the Corolla, thing is hideous in comparison to its competitors but it is still in the top of it's segment.

I can buy a nice suit, but I won't wear that same suit everyday if I can afford to buy a nicer/newer one. You need to understand. The luxury market is vastly different from the economical. Considering you're referring to leases, leased vehicles actually deal with residual values and CPO'd vehicles do rather well. With that said, MB, BMW & Audi trade places typically between spots 4-6 while Lexus is consistently at 1 or 2. But are they leading in luxury sales/leases? Nope.

In the US, Lexus beats both and has been doing it for 10 years until the earthquake and tsunami last year.

DETROIT—BMW AG BMW. nosed out rival Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit in December U.S. sales to capture the title of top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 2011, according to estimates by market researcher Autodata Corp.

Autodata, which compiles sales totals reported by auto makers, estimated BMW sold 248,113 cars and sport-utility vehicles in 2011, 2,804 more than Mercedes. Both auto makers saw their sales rise about 13% for the full year, Autodata estimated.

Neither BMW nor Mercedes publicly reported their sales for December during the day Wednesday, though virtually all other auto makers did so. Each was waiting for the other to report first, in hopes of snagging the crown as top luxury brand for the year, people familiar with the matter said.

According to Autodata's estimates, BMW sold 27,000 cars and SUVs in December, a rise of 16%. Mercedes sold 25,778, up 28%, Autodata said.

Both BMW and Mercedes increased discounts, interest rate deals and other incentives in December in hopes of beating the other for the sales title. Through November, BMW had sold 221,073 cars and SUVs, 1,582 more than Mercedes at the same point.

Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus division was the top-selling luxury car brand in 2010, as it had been since 2000. Lexus was slowed this year by vehicle shortages stemming from the March earthquake in Japan.

p.s. Lexus isn't taking the crown anytime soon...

I get it though, you love BMW and they are dominating in performance and sales these days and they are the best luxury brand in the world. But Lexus is making moves for the best and there is no denying that.

 

[tr1ll]

@ me thinking thinking this was really a 7 page thread about a Lexus.

 

[harm]

The make M series cars to compete AMG ..

The amount of misinformation in this thread is hilarious. I take it you either don't even own either make, are just simply clueless or both...

AMG was founded a few years before BMW Motorsport, but BMW M had much more ties to racing in the early 1960s than AMG as I believe they started in the late 1960s. Even then, neither were available for consumer purchase as they are both subsidiaries that were/are part of a racing program. If you want to talk about production for public purchase, BMW M came out with the first automobile (M1) in 1978 while MB came out with their first in (C36)1993. That's quite a large gap to be competing against one another wouldn't you say? AMG offered packages and upgrades prior to that, but they were never full-fledged AMG vehicles. Regardless, BMW M is still the former of the two...

You taking what I said out of context or maybe I typed it wrong or you misunderstood..

But M=AMG, no?

Both are the Elite performance brands for both respective companies, right?

That all I was basically saying man

You can't compare a 760 to a S65 , that ******* foolish.

 

[sniper]

Ummmm, I've owned an E46 and currently own a Z4. I know a lot of people with BMWs that has had problems once it hits 4 years old. And no, I am not confusing the standard maintenance because it's been free for a couple of years now. And I know a lot of girls who has/owns entry level luxury cars (IS, C-Class, 3-Series, etc...) so I know how reliable these cars can get, my IS250 is almost 5 years old now and not a single problem has occurred, there was a recall but I just brought it during an oil change interval and got a loaner, no big deal at all. One of my best friend (girl) has had her E90 in the shop 3 times for warranty work in the 3 years she's owned it until she gave back after the lease.
I know plenty of rich dudes who lease BMWs but purchase Lexus for their kids and wives. And this is coming from guys who own Astons, Ferraris, Porsche, etc...

->While my family has owned several makes & models over the years, we still have strong ties to BMW. I personally own(ed) an E36, E92 & E70 with an F30 currently on order. I know a lot of people with BMWs that have had zero problems after 4-yrs and on. Your point? While you know a lot of girls with entry-level luxury cars, I know a lot of both men & women that own them as well so I'm also aware of reliability from various makes. You had to bring your IS back for a recall, I didn't have to bring any of my cars back at all. My girlfriend owns her E90 and had her HPFP replaced once. That was 2-yrs ago and the car is still running strong. Even then, BMW is still backing her with a 10-yr, 120k warranty. So what are you getting at? That since your friend has problems with her specific vehicle, all exact models of hers suffer the same fate? I beg to differ, my friend. All vehicles are subject to different use. Prime Example: My neighbor consistently brings her Toyota Tacoma in and that truck has had annual great reliability ratings? So because of her problem, all Tacomas are now deemed as unreliable and money-pits? Don't think so...

I know plenty of wealthy people who lease BMWs, but also purchase BMWs for their kids and wives? Again. Your point?

[quote name="RFX45"]Not ironic at all, more people tend to lease it so there are a lot more used ones out there to sell. Again, this is by experience and look at the #1 leased vehicle, a 3-Series: http://autos.aol.com/gallery/top-ten-most-leased/[/quote]
->The E92 was voted in because of it's overall performance & reliability. Not because of it's ample supply. Regardless, who is debating that 3-series are not the #1 leased vehicle?
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-used-cars.html

[quote name="RFX45"]Not isolated, BMWs fuel pump problem has ran rampant on a lot of their cars. It was a problem on the M3, E90 and it is one of the most complained about problem on the current Z4 (I own one and a member of several boards so I know this). [/quote]
->Rampant? HPFP failure is relegated to, most recently, N54 engines and that stems to 07-09 vehicles only. Like I said, isolated sectors and not BMW as a whole. Z4s last major problem was electrical wiring for '09 models. Before then, the fuel pump and air bag on '03-'04 models. Is your Z4 an 8-yr old '04?

To add to this; far more N52s sell than N54s so that, again, isolates this specific problem...

(I own several BMWs and am also on several boards.)

[quote name="RFX45"]You are taking what I am saying all wrong. I said BMW is the best and the top echelon when it comes to performance but a very small percentage goes "I want that 328i because it is the fastest to 60!". It has to look good and has to have that name. And yes that is saying something about BMW for people coveting it as a top luxury brand, no one said it was hype or fad. No need to put words into my mouth.[/quote]
->Still don't get what you're saying as I clearly indicated that if you take performance out of the equation and base it on aesthetics alone, BMW still outsells...

[quote name="RFX45"]Bro, that is BS. Like I said, the majority of sales are on entry level vehicles, most people buy entry level because they want that luxury feel but w/o paying the highest premiums. People doesn't want to be tied to the car forever? Toyota has been the top car manufacturer for years now and they do it with reliability, not because of performance (they barely started making driver oriented cars again) nor looks (Toyota cars aren't ugly but they aren't the best looking). I mean look at the Corolla, thing is hideous in comparison to its competitors but it is still in the top of it's segment.[/quote]
->I enjoy the fact that you state I'm putting words in your mouth, yet you completely omit what I stated following that sentence. You're actually selecting specific sentences as well while completely ignoring other statements I've posted. You want to get into a legit' debate, don't pick-and-choose. Cover it all. Regardless, the majority of people in the luxury market don't want to be tied to a car forever. Not the economical market. Two completely different markets with two completely different agendas. Again. Don't get why you're bringing up Toyota's performance and styling. You're reaching...

This is what I wrote directly after what you posted, but you didn't include it in the quote. Funny, no?:
[quote name="sniper"]The luxury market is vastly different from the economical. [/quote]

[quote name="RFX45"]In the US, Lexus beats both and has been doing it for 10 years until the earthquake and tsunami last year.[/quote]
->False. Please get your facts straight & accurate. Although they had a good reign and the natural disasters affected sales, Lexus estimated to sell 230k-240k units for 2011. You know what they ended up selling? 198K units. Do you know what BMW sold for 2011? 248k units. With a little math involved, even if Lexus hit it's target and met the demand at 230k-240k, they'd still fall short of BMW as well as Mercedes-Benz. Again. If you were to factor out the natural disasters and have Toyota at full operating power, they'd still lose...

Want to know why? It's because Lexus, as a whole, is having difficulty in capturing a broad audience to the likes of other luxury makes...

Lexus has historically spent the least in the industry on incentives, said Eric Lyman, vice president of residual value solutions at ALG Inc.

Lexus spent $3,734 on incentives per SUV sold in May and $2,855 per car, according to Autodata Corp. The average vehicle last month sold with $2,545 in discounts, up 11 percent from a year earlier, Autodata said.

The brand has been coaxed into using discounts as models such as the RX SUV, its only North America-built vehicle, get older and rivals roll out competing vehicles, Lyman said. Mercedes started selling a refreshed M-Class last year. GM's Cadillac SRX and even mainstream brands such as Chrysler's Jeep, which offers versions of its Grand Cherokee SUVs that can sell for more than $50,000, are challengers to the RX.

"Lexus is at the tail end of their life cycle for a lot of their volume products, and the competitive landscape has changed," Lyman said.

[quote name="RFX45"]I get it though, you love BMW and they are dominating in performance and sales these days and they are the best luxury brand in the world. But Lexus is making moves for the best and there is no denying that.[/quote]
Lexus is making moves because they have to. 45% of their U.S. sales are RX models followed by the ES at 19%. As far as BMW, MB, etc. is concerned, Lexus can have that side of the market....

Industry analyst Aaron Bragman of IHS Automotive Insight said on Friday the slump at Lexus goes deeper than a shortage of vehicles. He suggested that Lexus could suffer from the same stigma as did General Motors Co's Buick brand for the past several decades: old people's car.

Bragman said it would be "quite a challenge" for Lexus to reclaim No. 1 in luxury sales in 2012 even with full production because its lineup is not as alluring as it once was and it relies heavily on two models, the RX 350 and ES 350 sedan, a spinoff of the Toyota Camry.

The RX so far this year accounts for 45 percent of Lexus U.S. sales and the ES sedan 19 percent.

"Like Toyota, they've lost their momentum. They have an aging buyer base, and a lot of their dealers are afraid they will become the next Buick. Their new products haven't resonated with younger buyers."

Next...

 

[sniper]

You taking what I said out of context or maybe I typed it wrong or you misunderstood..
But M=AMG, no?
Both are the Elite performance brands for both respective companies, right?
That all I was basically saying man
You can't compare a 760 to a S65 , that ******* foolish.

Hell no!

AMG and BMW M have very different philosophies. BMW M has more of a sport heritage while AMG focuses on comfort & practicality to go along with performance. While one is more true to it's roots, the other still adapts those qualities, but to a lesser extent offering a more relaxed approach. Thus, why you see BMW Ms typically with manual transmissions and semi-auto/dual-clutch transmissions. AMG primarily uses automatic transmissions and I don't think I've ever seen a manual AMG. I know they produced a few in the 80s..

 

[rfx45]

I am not going to keep arguing with you and quoting 100 posts of yours. If oyu want to win, go ahead.
And no I am not omitting anything, I quoted some of the remarks I chose to respond to, simple as that.
Maybe I simply agreed to those comment I didn't quote but go ahead turn it around because no one is going to change your mind about BMW, keep your minds closed and be a BMW stan.


And my Z4 is a 2012 but the Sdrive35i has an N54 engine so yes the problem has occurred.


You try to belittle people and act all might as if you're the only one who has owned BMWs.

Your Lexus article says it is due to the "old man image" and you said they have to makes moves because it is need, just as BMW needs to keep improving their cars, making it bigger and making it more fuel efficient (the new N20 engine is all over the place now) so why is it bad when Lexus does something to impove? Deny it all you want, Lexus/Toyota is moving forward and they are a luxury brand that is threatening BMWs sales. That is a fact in the US for a decade of dominance.

False. Please get your facts straight & accurate. Although they had a good reign and the natural disasters affected sales, Lexus estimated to sell 230k-240k units for 2011. You know what they ended up selling? 198K units. Do you know what BMW sold for 2011? 248k units. With a little math involved, even it Lexus hit it's target and met the demand at 230k-240k, they'd still fall short of BMW as well as Mercedes-Benz. Again. If you were to factor out the natural disasters and have Toyota at full operating power, they'd still lose...

It's like you read but do not understand. I admitted Lexus lost in 2011 but the article clearly states Lexus has sold more cars the past 10 years before that. Again the natural disaster affected that estimate. When Lexus couldn't bring in cars, obviously those looking to buy aren't going to wait so they buy a BMW, Benz, Audi, etc... Lexus' loss is other manufacturers gain. Why do you think Nissan did so well last year? Because Toyota & Honda could bring cars to their dealership because of those disasters.


Again, you want to be a BMW stan, go ahead, you win. Because no other car is better. Really no point in arguing with you anymore.

 

[rfx45]

By the way, the article you posted is an analysts opinion (who also said the GS is a Camry spin-off) while my article were facts (that Lexus did dominate in the US and I never said anything more than that on that part of the discussion).

Just saying but moving on...

 

[sniper]

I am not going to keep arguing with you and quoting 100 posts of yours. If oyu want to win, go ahead.
And no I am not omitting anything, I quoted some of the remarks I chose to respond to, simple as that.
Maybe I simply agreed to those comment I didn't quote but go ahead turn it around because no one is going to change your mind about BMW, keep your minds closed and be a BMW stan.
And my Z4 is a 2012 but the Sdrive35i has an N54 engine so yes the problem has occurred.
You try to belittle people and act all might as if you're the only one who has owned BMWs.
Your Lexus article says it is due to the "old man image" and you said they have to makes moves because it is need, just as BMW needs to keep improving their cars, making it bigger and making it more fuel efficient (the new N20 engine is all over the place now) so why is it bad when Lexus does something to impove? Deny it all you want, Lexus/Toyota is moving forward and they are a luxury brand that is threatening BMWs sales. That is a fact in the US for a decade of dominance.
It's like you read but do not understand. I admitted Lexus lost in 2011 but the article clearly states Lexus has sold more cars the past 10 years before that. Again the natural disaster affected that estimate. When Lexus couldn't bring in cars, obviously those looking to buy aren't going to wait so they buy a BMW, Benz, Audi, etc... Lexus' loss is other manufacturers gain. Why do you think Nissan did so well last year? Because Toyota & Honda could bring cars to their dealership because of those disasters.
Again, you want to be a BMW stan, go ahead, you win. Because no other car is better. Really no point in arguing with you anymore.

Fuel pumps have been replaced on current E89s, but that has been more so due to a high-pitched noise at certain intervals than actual failure. You know what engine won International Engine of the Year again for 2012? The N54. For an engine to be associated with such a bad HPFP, why does it keep winning? Surely, they must be corrupting these judges...

Not belittling anyone. I don't just own BMWs as certain makes cater to my needs. I have different cars for different reasons because as I mentioned before, the market is very broad and certain purchases correlate to why they were bought...

My article also states that because of it's old man image, it's declining. Have you ever heard of 'Buick Syndrome'? It's when your clientele is so loyal that they continue to purchase the same make for a long period of time. Lexus' most loyal customers are now in their mid-50s and aren't looking to continue payments for a new Lexus. BMW's market is quite different and has 2-basic trends. Upgrading to the next series, maintaining a marquee vehicle or a combination of both. Lexus has hit it's peak and didn't invest into new tech until it's latter stages and that is why they plateaued. Again. Their current sales rely heavily on the RX model. It's not even a luxury sports car or sedan. It's a luxury SUV/SAV. They were content with that and should have been investing much earlier than seeing a downward trend as many makes have strictly targeted that market. They, as a company, are by no means out of competition as they are still a great company, but they certainly have quite a ways to go. That is fact and why they lost their decade of dominance...

Lexus has to improve because they are near stumbling. BMW has to continually improve because they want to keep their reputation. Those are two very different positions, my friend...

Again. The natural disasters didn't affect estimates as the estimated 230k-240k units were made prior to those events. BMW has consistently raised their sales by +/-17% each year and they slightly edged their projected sales. The decline of Lexus was not the result of their triumph. Nissan did so well because they introduced new tech and designs. The Versa was rejuvenated. The Leaf revamped. Even their lux company, Infiniti, who took a hit from the tsunami and earthquake had record sales for their QX and G sedan...

Again. Next...

 

[sniper]

By the way, the article you posted is an analysts opinion (who also said the GS is a Camry spin-off) while my article were facts (that Lexus did dominate in the US and I never said anything more than that on that part of the discussion).
Just saying but moving on...

Haha! You do realize that it is a direct spin-off a Camry, yes? However, the ES is more so on the realm of a spin-off. The GS is to the likes of the Avalon or RX models, which are based on a modified Camry frame & chassis. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. They even have interchangeable drive-train parts. Again. Lexus DID (past tense). I never took anything away from that statement other than provide that those sales were due to 2 models that have hit their end of the road while Lexus has yet to release something to regain that title. I've seen some of what they're developing and still stand by my and other analysts statements that they won't be at the top anytime soon...

Just saying, but moving on...

 

[rfx45]

Again. The natural disasters didn't affect estimates as the estimated 230k-240k units were made prior to those events.

The estimates were 230k-240k before the disaster and they sold a lot less because of the disaster. Even if BMW sold 248k, they only beat Lexus' estimates. No one would know for sure how much Lexus would have actually sold, it's an estimate for a reason and you keep locking in to that. With Lexus not having cars to sell, those buyers go to other manufacturer so we don't know how much of the 248k units BMW sold were meant for a Lexus. If Lexus estimates to sell 240k cars sold for 2011 and if about 15k-20k units of the BMW sales were suppose to go to Lexus if it weren't for the natural disaster, then Lexus would still take the crown. I mean it is plausible because as I said, Toyota & Honda lost a lot of business by not having cars on the lot and Nissan and other domestic car companies had their car sales spike up.

It is moot to argue about it not because it is all "what ifs" but the simple fact is this, Lexus has sold the most luxury vehicles in the US since 2000 until 2011 when they lost because of the natural disaster. And if you think about it, they still did decent because they finished third behind BMW and MB.

But man, it's Friday and I just don't have the energy to keep going back and forth. So all I'm going to say is enjoy your weekend, BMW is the best in the world and no one is beating them because they are the greatest and hopefully people will stop messing up the Lexus thread with BMW discussions.

 

[handullz]

The estimates were 230k-240k before the disaster and they sold a lot less because of the disaster. Even if BMW sold 248k, they only beat Lexus' estimates. No one would know for sure how much Lexus would have actually sold, it's an estimate for a reason and you keep locking in to that. With Lexus not having cars to sell, those buyers go to other manufacturer so we don't know how much of the 248k units BMW sold were meant for a Lexus. If Lexus estimates to sell 240k cars sold for 2011 and if about 15k-20k units of the BMW sales were suppose to go to Lexus if it weren't for the natural disaster, then Lexus would still take the crown. I mean it is plausible because as I said, Toyota & Honda lost a lot of business by not having cars on the lot and Nissan and other domestic car companies had their car sales spike up.
It is moot to argue about it not because it is all "what ifs" but the simple fact is this, Lexus has sold the most luxury vehicles in the US since 2000 until 2011 when they lost because of the natural disaster. And if you think about it, they still did decent because they finished third behind BMW and MB.
But man, it's Friday and I just don't have the energy to keep going back and forth. So all I'm going to say is enjoy your weekend, BMW is the best in the world and no one is beating them because they are the greatest and hopefully people will stop messing up the Lexus thread with BMW discussions.

:x :x

that brand loyalty...

famb stated an opinion as if it were fact.

 

[rfx45]

:x :x
that brand loyalty...
famb stated an opinion as if it were fact.

I know sarcasm is difficult to detect in forums but I thought that one was pretty obvious.

 

[handullz]

lololol

 

[rfx45]

Haha! You do realize that it is a direct spin-off a Camry, yes? However, the ES is more so on the realm of a spin-off. The GS is to the likes of the Avalon or RX models, which are based on a modified Camry frame & chassis. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. They even have interchangeable drive-train parts. Again. Lexus DID (past tense). I never took anything away from that statement other than provide that those sales were due to 2 models that have hit their end of the road while Lexus has yet to release something to regain that title. I've seen some of what they're developing and still stand by my and other analysts statements that they won't be at the top anytime soon...

Just saying, but moving on...

Actually just because they share a few parts here and there doesn't mean it is a "spin-off". As you said, the ES is the Camry version of Lexus. This new GS350 has an all-new chassis, RWD and drives nothing like a Camry.

And I am not expert but how does the RX have a modified Camry frame? Really curious about that one as it's weird to see a car frame be modified for an SUV.

 

[sniper]

The estimates were 230k-240k before the disaster and they sold a lot less because of the disaster. Even if BMW sold 248k, they only beat Lexus' estimates. No one would know for sure how much Lexus would have actually sold, it's an estimate for a reason and you keep locking in to that. With Lexus not having cars to sell, those buyers go to other manufacturer so we don't know how much of the 248k units BMW sold were meant for a Lexus. If Lexus estimates to sell 240k cars sold for 2011 and if about 15k-20k units of the BMW sales were suppose to go to Lexus if it weren't for the natural disaster, then Lexus would still take the crown. I mean it is plausible because as I said, Toyota & Honda lost a lot of business by not having cars on the lot and Nissan and other domestic car companies had their car sales spike up.
It is moot to argue about it not because it is all "what ifs" but the simple fact is this, Lexus has sold the most luxury vehicles in the US since 2000 until 2011 when they lost because of the natural disaster. And if you think about it, they still did decent because they finished third behind BMW and MB.
But man, it's Friday and I just don't have the energy to keep going back and forth. So all I'm going to say is enjoy your weekend, BMW is the best in the world and no one is beating them because they are the greatest and hopefully people will stop messing up the Lexus thread with BMW discussions.

Yes. Lexus was affected by the disasters, but that wasn't the sole reason why their sales took a large dip. As stated, 45% of their sales are the RX model. With almost every make releasing some form of SUV or crossover vehicle, the lower sales of the stale RX model cut into their overall sales greatly. Estimates aren't just made from random people on the street. Every brand has a team that strictly targets projected sales evaluating prior sales to current stock. They are logical guesses so, again, I don't know what you're getting at. You throwing out a number of 15k-20k is your opinion. That's on average a month to a month and a half of unit sales. Don't think so, guy. Plausible, but highly unlikely...

In addition, most RX models are made in North America while the hybrid version in Japan. For a company whose main source of sales(45%) are primarily produced in Canada, the tsunami & earthquake didn't alter their production. Lack of demand did. So with all your 'what ifs' and assumptions, their primary seller had a lot of competition and could not keep up. Same goes for an array of their other models. They can and need to up their game. Simple as that...

It's not really moot when facts and professional opinions tend to dictate the outcome. They lost because of low demand as well as the natural disaster. They are at full steam now and still won't beat BMW or MB. They won't this year or the year after that. Will they have a chance? Certainly. They're not a company to take a hit and stay down. Might be a little slower than more established luxury brands, but they have proven that they can be front-runners...

 

[rfx45]

It is moot because we are saying "what if Lexus didn't have a natural disaster" and obviously they did. so we'll never know how it would have all turned out.

Again if Lexus' estimate were correct and they got half of the sales they may have lost to BMW/MB then they would have won. But again we will never know so the discussion is moot.