An Open - Letter to My Pro - Obama Friends (lengthy read)

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http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5


An Open-Letter to My Pro-Obama Friends

by Bretigne Shaffer

Dear pro-Obama friends,

I got a call from one of you the day after the election. You were so happy. You had "not been so proud to be an American for... decades!" You're living overseas, and you told me about watching the results in a bar with other Americans and how you were all hugging and crying you were so happy. As I hung up the phone, I found that I felt happy for you too.

Most of you know that I supported neither McCain nor Obama, that I view them as equally opposed to peace and freedom and equally ignorant of sound economicprinciples. I wasn't going to be happy with the election results no matter who won, so I can at least be glad that some of my friends are happy, and I am. And after his first few days in office, even I have to admit that Obama has done some very good things for which he is receiving well-deserved praise. It isnot my intention to dismiss these accomplishments, nor is it my intent to rain on anyone's parade. But I do want to ask you all a big favor.

I'm going to make some predictions about Obama's presidency. Essentially, I'm going to predict that four years from now, an Obama presidency willnot look very different from the George W. Bush presidency, or from what I imagine a John McCain presidency would bring. If I'm wrong about this, then Ipromise that I will re-think my beliefs about our political system and about politics generally. But if I am right, then I'm asking you to do the same. I'm asking each of you to consider the seemingly bizarre proposition that there really is no significant difference between candidates offered up by theestablished party system; that Republican and Democrat are virtually indistinguishable; and that neither party has at heart the interests of you or me or"the American people." I'm asking you to consider the possibility that continuing to vote for these people just helps to perpetuate the veryills you seek to cure.

So here are my predictions. I'm going to leave aside areas such as the environment (I don't believe that government solutions to environmentalproblems will help anyone other than special interest groups - many of you probably don't agree with me) and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashionedand believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it) because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealthredistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers isreally going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)

I'll stick to the areas where I think most of us agree: War and foreign policy; civil liberties; and the economy.


Let's start with war and foreign policy. Obama was not an anti-war candidate, and he is not an anti-war president. His opposition to the US occupation ofIraq was based not on a principled stance against pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a foreign country, but on his view that it had damaged the US'scredibility and therefore its ability to engage in military interventions in the future. Senator Obama voted to continue funding the Iraq war and votedagainst a 2007 pullout in June of 2006. He does not plan to bring troops home from Iraq, but to redeploy them in Afghanistan, and he "support plans toincrease the size of the Army by 65,000 soldiers and the Marine Corps by 27,000 Marines." (from Obama's website, change.gov)

In an article for Foreign Affairs last year, Obama said "I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect theAmerican people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened." (Emphasis mine.) He has promised AIPAC (the American IsraelPublic Affairs Committee) that he will "...do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. Everything." Coming from thefuture leader of one of the most heavily nuclear-armed nations in the world, these are chilling words. Prior to his election, Obama also spoke of expandingthe war on terror to Pakistan (indeed, by the end of his first week in office, he had already ordered air strikes on villages in Pakistan, killing at least 17people including three children), and prior to his inauguration he remained silent as the Israeli government killed hundreds of civilians in Gaza with weaponsprovided by the US government.

The sad truth of the matter is that George W. Bush in 2000 ran on more of an anti-war platform than did Obama in 2008. Indeed, the danger inherent in aPresident Obama is that he will be perceived as being less bellicose than Bush or McCain. I believe that this will allow him to get away with even more thanMcCain might have, as he will face neither the public opposition nor opposition in Congress that a Republican president would have.

So, here are my foreign policy predictions:

At the end of Obama's first four-year term:

1. The US will still have an active military presence in Iraq.
2. The US will have attacked at least one more country that poses no direct threat to us. (I'm not even going to count his early air strikes onPakistan.)
3. Military spending will have increased.
4. US citizens will be no safer from terrorist attacks. I say this because I believe the (sadly all-too-accurate) perception of the US as an imperialistwarmongering nation will persist. I realize this one is open to interpretation. I would just ask you to honestly ask yourselves at the end of these fouryears whether this is the case.

My one caveat to this section is this: If the US government becomes financially unable to maintain its empire abroad, then Obama's military aspirations maybe hampered by budget constraints. However I maintain (and Obama's own words support me here) that this will not be because of any lack of will on hispart.

Moving on to civil liberties and human rights, I have to admit that this is the one area where Obama's presidency is already looking different from that ofhis predecessor. In his first few days in office, President Obama signed executive orders to 1) close Guantanamo within a year; 2) officially ban the use oftorture in the military; 3) close the CIA-run secret prisons around the world; and 4) review detention policies and procedures and review individual detentioncases. He has also suspended the military trials at Guantanamo for 120 days, and has acted to combat government secrecy. These are all good things and Obamais receiving well-deserved praise for them.

More important though, the fundamental problems facing civil liberties and human rights in this country do not stem from the operation of some detentioncenters. The damage inflicted has its roots in such things as the USA PATRIOT ACT (which Obama voted to re-authorize), drug law enforcement, and therepudiation of the very foundation of due process of law, habeas corpus. The big questions then, are: 1) whether Obama's administration will actuallyfollow through on his executive orders and close Guantanamo, close the CIA prisons and truly end torture (there is also of course the question of what willthen happen to the detainees); and 2) whether Obama will be able to tackle the more fundamental problems such as restoring habeas corpus and due process.

And there are some fundamental issues that Obama has not even taken on. While he is aware of the fact that more than one percent of American adults, and oneout of every nine black men, are in prison, he does not tackle this issue head on. Nor does he really address the war on drugs in its entirety, nor theincreasingly dangerous police state it has helped to spawn. To his credit, he has promised to end the illegal federal raids on medical marijuana clinics, andto eliminate the inherently racist sentencing disparities between crack and powder cocaine. However these measures don't even come close to addressing thefundamental problem that is the drug war itself. And some of his moves so far do not inspire hope: His appointment of Eric Holder, formerly a big proponentof mandatory minimum sentencing is worrisome. Even more disturbing, Obama has pledged to strengthen two federal programs ("Community Oriented PolicingServices" (COPS) and the Byrne grant program) that have actually contributed to increased militarization of local police forces.

My predictions, then, are a bit more muted than in the other sections. On some of the big questions I listed above, I do not have any predictions. I hopethat he does do all of these things, and if he does I will give him credit for it, and even admit that he may be better than McCain in this one area after all(although remember McCain said he was against torture too). To me though, real change means more than simply reversing the most outrageous of measures put inplace by the previous administration. However if under Obama habeas corpus and/or due process (including an end to warrant-less searches and seizures) arefully restored, then I will absolutely admit that there are significant differences between the two men, and I will reconsider my view that real change cannotcome through the political process.

I am also very concerned about Obama's plans for what amounts to compulsory national service for young people. The idea is that schools receiving federalfunds will be strong-armed into implementing "service" (for government-approved endeavors of course) as part of their graduation requirements. I amnot going to include this in my predictions however as I really don't have a strong view on whether this will come to pass or not.

What I do predict is the following. By the end of Obama's first term in office:

1. More than 1% of US adults will still be in prison. This number will very likely be even higher than it is today, and the black and Hispanic portion ofthat population will not have decreased by any significant amount.
2. We will still suffer from the kind of police abuse that is becoming more and more common: military-style raids on unarmed civilians in their homes; theshooting and tasering of unarmed citizens; and police and judicial corruption leading to the jailing of many more innocent people than can be acceptable underany system. The militarization and aggressive behavior of police forces will probably become worse before they get any better. This is another one that issomewhat open to interpretation. I would ask you to rely on your own honest judgement regarding whether you believe things have really changed in this area.
3. "No-Fly" lists will still be in place, and there may even be more restrictions on travel.
4. There will be more restrictions on gun ownership and the right to self-defense.
5. The police tactics and suppression of dissent at the 2012 RNC and DNC conventions will be just as brutal as they were in 2008.
6. Government surveillance of US citizens will continue (remember that bill Obama voted for that gave immunity to the telecoms companies that assisted withthis in the past?),


Now for the easy part: the economy.

It is true that President Obama has inherited a tremendous problem from the previous administration. Any president would be hard-pressed to come out of thenext four years claiming victory in this area. In fact, the best that anyone could do would be to not make things any worse by allowing markets to function,overvalued assets to depreciate and poorly run companies to fail. Barack Obama is not going to do that.

With his support for the massive financial-industry bailouts, and his plans for stimulus packages to get the economy on track again, President Obama is doingall the wrong things. What got us into this mess was too much borrowing and spending, too much government involvement in markets, and now he wants toimplement more of the same as the solution. I'm not even going to ask you all to agree with my assessment. Just watch what happens.

My prediction: By the end of Obama's first four years in office, the US economy will be in much, much worse shape than it is now. Specifically:

1. The US will have massive inflation. The dollar will lose at least 50% of its value against most goods and services, and certainly against the goods andservices most people use every day. This is a very conservative estimate. It will probably be much worse.
2. Unemployment in the US will be worse than it is now. It will be at least in the double digits.

Maybe you all have a different concept of what "change" means than I do. If so, then fair enough. But for me, at a bare minimum, any real changecannot possibly include a continuation of the US government's interventionist and imperialist foreign policy. Nor can it include the maintenance of thepolice state that allows government agents to spy on US citizens, burst into their homes in the dead of night armed to the teeth, seize the property of peoplenot even connected to crime s, shoot and taser non-violent citizens with impunity and incarcerate nearly 1% of the population - or incarcerateanyone for crimes that have no victims. I believe that these things will continue unabated under the Obama administration.

If you agree with me that the continuation of these problems would not constitute the kind of "change" you are looking for, then I'm asking youto accept my challenge: If, by the end of Obama's first term in office, these areas are not significantly different from how they are now - that is, ifthe US is as much an imperialist, warmongering state as it is today, if civil liberties at home are no more protected than they are today and if the economy isin significantly worse shape than it is today - then I will ask you to admit that you were wrong about Obama. More than that, I'm going to ask you torethink your views on about the political process more broadly. And I promise to do the same.

For years, I have said that real progress towards peace, freedom and respect for individual rights cannot come from working within the very system thatsustains itself through war and the expansion of state power over people's lives. If in fact the Obama administration does herald great and significantchange in these areas that we agree upon, then I promise to rethink these beliefs.

Let me correct myself on one point. Up above I said that there was no discernible difference between the Republicans and Democrats, or between McCain andObama. That's not quite true. Obama is smarter. He will pursue his ends in a more intelligent and a more publicly palatable way than John McCain wouldhave, and he will very likely be more successful in attaining them because of it. But what remains the same are the ends themselves. Ultimately, both partiesstand for upholding American empire overseas and expanding the scope of the state in people's lives and the economy at home. If I am wrong about this,then I promise to re-think everything. But if I am not, then I hope you will do the same. Let's talk again in four years.
 
This will get attacked by many on this board I'm sure, but unfortunately, it will probably prove to be true.
 
lol, typical "Ron Paul Revolution" type BS... tell everyone else that they are completely wrong, yet propose no practical solutions.

Let's talk again in four years.

okay then. until that point, why don't you shut the %#*@ up and let Obama have his chance. if Obama's policies end up working, all these people will bebacktracking trying to come up with excuses.
 
Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5


An Open-Letter to My Pro-Obama Friends

by Bretigne Shaffer

Dear pro-Obama friends,

I got a call from one of you the day after the election. You were so happy. You had "not been so proud to be an American for... decades!" You're living overseas, and you told me about watching the results in a bar with other Americans and how you were all hugging and crying you were so happy. As I hung up the phone, I found that I felt happy for you too.

Most of you know that I supported neither McCain nor Obama, that I view them as equally opposed to peace and freedom and equally ignorant of sound economic principles. I wasn't going to be happy with the election results no matter who won, so I can at least be glad that some of my friends are happy, and I am. And after his first few days in office, even I have to admit that Obama has done some very good things for which he is receiving well-deserved praise. It is not my intention to dismiss these accomplishments, nor is it my intent to rain on anyone's parade. But I do want to ask you all a big favor.

I'm going to make some predictions about Obama's presidency. Essentially, I'm going to predict that four years from now, an Obama presidency will not look very different from the George W. Bush presidency, or from what I imagine a John McCain presidency would bring. If I'm wrong about this, then I promise that I will re-think my beliefs about our political system and about politics generally. But if I am right, then I'm asking you to do the same. I'm asking each of you to consider the seemingly bizarre proposition that there really is no significant difference between candidates offered up by the established party system; that Republican and Democrat are virtually indistinguishable; and that neither party has at heart the interests of you or me or "the American people." I'm asking you to consider the possibility that continuing to vote for these people just helps to perpetuate the very ills you seek to cure.

So here are my predictions. I'm going to leave aside areas such as the environment (I don't believe that government solutions to environmental problems will help anyone other than special interest groups - many of you probably don't agree with me) [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it)[/color] because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.
 
Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5


An Open-Letter to My Pro-Obama Friends

by Bretigne Shaffer

Dear pro-Obama friends,

I got a call from one of you the day after the election. You were so happy. You had "not been so proud to be an American for... decades!" You're living overseas, and you told me about watching the results in a bar with other Americans and how you were all hugging and crying you were so happy. As I hung up the phone, I found that I felt happy for you too.

Most of you know that I supported neither McCain nor Obama, that I view them as equally opposed to peace and freedom and equally ignorant of sound economic principles. I wasn't going to be happy with the election results no matter who won, so I can at least be glad that some of my friends are happy, and I am. And after his first few days in office, even I have to admit that Obama has done some very good things for which he is receiving well-deserved praise. It is not my intention to dismiss these accomplishments, nor is it my intent to rain on anyone's parade. But I do want to ask you all a big favor.

I'm going to make some predictions about Obama's presidency. Essentially, I'm going to predict that four years from now, an Obama presidency will not look very different from the George W. Bush presidency, or from what I imagine a John McCain presidency would bring. If I'm wrong about this, then I promise that I will re-think my beliefs about our political system and about politics generally. But if I am right, then I'm asking you to do the same. I'm asking each of you to consider the seemingly bizarre proposition that there really is no significant difference between candidates offered up by the established party system; that Republican and Democrat are virtually indistinguishable; and that neither party has at heart the interests of you or me or "the American people." I'm asking you to consider the possibility that continuing to vote for these people just helps to perpetuate the very ills you seek to cure.

So here are my predictions. I'm going to leave aside areas such as the environment (I don't believe that government solutions to environmental problems will help anyone other than special interest groups - many of you probably don't agree with me) and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it) because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.


Is it that ridiculous for a me expect to keep everything I have earned?
 
Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5 and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it) because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.


Is it that ridiculous for a me expect to keep everything I have earned?

1. Don't pay taxes if you think your wealth is being redistributed ... 2. No wealth is being redistributed under Obama's tax plan, you are paying asmall percentage more and that is saying you are making $250K + in college if so god bless. 3. I should be even more angry than you because the biggestRedistribution of wealth has occured the past 25 years under Reaganomics and trickle down economics.. Your welcome for prospering under the lessfortunate's dime. As the gap between rich and poor widened even though the poor worked just as hard as you "rich folk".

As for your whole post there are a few people (not Ron Paul) who could handle this, but to compare Obama to Bush or what McCain would do is really misinformedand completely ridiculous.
 
I thought that Obama was the lesser of two evils due to his views social and civil liberties, and I still do. I don't support Ron Paul, either. No one fitsme.
 
Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it) because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.


Is it that ridiculous for a me expect to keep everything I have earned?

1. Don't pay taxes if you think your wealth is being redistributed ... 2. No wealth is being redistributed under Obama's tax plan, you are paying a small percentage more and that is saying you are making $250K + in college if so god bless. 3. I should be even more angry than you because the biggest Redistribution of wealth has occured the past 25 years under Reaganomics and trickle down economics.. Your welcome for prospering under the less fortunate's dime. As the gap between rich and poor widened even though the poor worked just as hard as you "rich folk".

As for your whole post there are a few people (not Ron Paul) who could handle this, but to compare Obama to Bush or what McCain would do is really misinformed and completely ridiculous.

Like the post says . . . we won't agree on the issue of government theft . . . buuut I have to address your points

1. "don't pay taxes" . . . come now . . . like it's optional . . .

2. This about is more than the just his tax plan. This is about his stimulus packages, unproductive govt make work jobs, bailouts and all the other componentsof Mr. Obama's print and spend bailout bonanza. Remember, every dollar he spends on someone, he has to take from another person.

3. Reaganomics and trickle down econ was the biggest redistrib. of wealth? Really? Care to provide details? Figures? Sources?

4. "We" did not prosper on anyone's dime. Just because one person is a dollar richer, it doesnt mean the rest of society is a dollar poorer.That dollar of wealth was created, not taken from others.Government on the other hand cannot create wealth - it can only taken from A and give to B.
 
Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it)[/color] because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.


Is it that ridiculous for a me expect to keep everything I have earned?

1. Don't pay taxes if you think your wealth is being redistributed ... 2. No wealth is being redistributed under Obama's tax plan, you are paying a small percentage more and that is saying you are making $250K + in college if so god bless. 3. I should be even more angry than you because the biggest Redistribution of wealth has occured the past 25 years under Reaganomics and trickle down economics.. Your welcome for prospering under the less fortunate's dime. As the gap between rich and poor widened even though the poor worked just as hard as you "rich folk".

As for your whole post there are a few people (not Ron Paul) who could handle this, but to compare Obama to Bush or what McCain would do is really misinformed and completely ridiculous.

Like the post says . . . we won't agree on the issue of government theft . . . buuut I have to address your points

1. "don't pay taxes" . . . come now . . . like it's optional . . .

2. This about is more than the just his tax plan. This is about his stimulus packages, unproductive govt make work jobs, bailouts and all the other components of Mr. Obama's print and spend bailout bonanza. Remember, every dollar he spends on someone, he has to take from another person.

3. Reaganomics and trickle down econ was the biggest redistrib. of wealth? Really? Care to provide details? Figures? Sources?

4. "We" did not prosper on anyone's dime. Just because one person is a dollar richer, it doesnt mean the rest of society is a dollar poorer. That dollar of wealth was created, not taken from others.Government on the other hand cannot create wealth - it can only taken from A and give to B.
So Obama's stimulus packages and bailouts is redistributing the wealth? Hmm, that's an interesting take.
4. "We" did not prosper on anyone's dime. Just because one person is a dollar richer, it doesnt mean the rest of society is a dollar poorer. That dollar of wealth was created, not taken from others.Government on the other hand cannot create wealth - it can only taken from A and give to B.
I don't see what this has to do with Obama. By the way, the stimulus package and bailout isn't taking money from one person and giving itto another. It's taking money from all and putting it in the economy.

I still fail to see how he's "redistrubting the wealth." I think all the Karl Marx and communism status you've seen on facebook is making youa little bit biased.
 
3. I should be even more angry than you because the biggest Redistribution of wealth has occurred the past 25 years under Reaganomics and trickle down economics.. Your welcome for prospering under the less fortunate's dime. As the gap between rich and poor widened even though the poor worked just as hard as you "rich folk".


You are confused and conflating a few different things. You are mixing tax cuts and a supply side approach to corporate welfare. In the case of the former,that is not redistribution of wealth in either direct, it simply means that after you create wealth and get the fruits of it, you get to keep more. In the caseof corporate welfare, we all should be upset at redistributing taxes from lower income people to higher income groups. We should also be upset about how highereducation is funded and how social security is structured because they have a similar effect.

BTW, no serious economist has ever advocated trickled down economics. Trickle down is a massive straw man and is a term that was coined by enemies of freemarket and tax cuts. Ronald Reagan never advocated giving money to the rich and hoping that it trickles down to everyone else. That is ridiculous theory andthat is why supply side economics is only explained in that way by those who oppose it. That is the definition of a strawman, to create and then refute such aweak and bad argument.

Tax cuts, especially on investment, should be described as trickle up economics because lower capital gains taxes create an incentive to borrow and invest andthat means that when a venture is started, ordinary workers have to get paid and only after a profit is made and capital gains are earned, that investors get areturn.

This is much better economic strategy. You encourage wealth to be created instead of spending money we do not have to pay people to dig holes in the ground,which is what Obamanomics has thus far shaped up to be.



One more thing. It is a tad ironic how some Obama fan boys are cursin gand telling folks to shut up, as if disagreeing is treason. I though that Obama wasgoing to bring about civility and dialogue? I guess some of his supporters did not care about that and are only interested in having Obama pay for their gasand rent or mortgage.
 
Over the past 25 years except Clinton and first Bush because Bush did raise taxes we have figured that the rich prospering = prosperity for the poor. Soundslike a good idea. But it is 100% false. Think of trickle down as rain. The highest gets hit first. But instead of letting the money hit them and roll down,they put up their umbrella, Instead of using the umbrella the correct way so the money still falls down they turn the umbrella upside down and catch a majorityof the money. Then the upper middle class take even more, and by the time it gets to the lower middle class who have such a small pot of money for so manypeople who need it, therefore the people who need it the most get the least and gov. looks and says "Oh don't complain you got a couple extra hundreddollars. Be happy. Yeah they got thousands but they need it more to stimulate the economy."

1. Individual tax cuts to the wealthiest does not create jobs. Ironically the wealthiest are greedy and pocket the money. 2. Tax cuts to corporations have alsoshown to be futile in creating jobs because you guessed it the owners of the corporation pocket 90% of the money.


You need to look also. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE ANYONE CAN DO. STIMULUS AND BAILOUT HAD TO BE DONE. Banks don't get the bailout they fail. Furtherunstablizing our economy. Corporation don't get help they fail. Furthering the job lose. Sure they needed to clearly lay out how money should have beenspent by them and Obama has more oversight of money than Bush cared to but to say those were not needed at all is highly reckless and uneducated.

Also government created jobs are a bad idea. So would you say global warming is 100% a farce and that the creation of green jobs is not only a bad idea butwould not create jobs and not prosper our economy? Also infrastructure is not necessary? So our roads do not need paving? Our bridges don't need tosecured? Our buildings don't need maintainence?

Look at it from this way being rich is a priviledge not a right. Yes higher title jobs have higher pay. BUT DO NOT FOR 1 MINUTE THINK YOU WORK HARDER THANANYONE ELSE.

When people discuss tax cuts it is always yeah let's help the rich to help the poor. They deserve the most money back. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! Actually no youdon't you make the most money so why do you deserve the most money back in taxes?? When we have done this you have proven that you don't help everyoneelse you walk away when you see people ask for a hand or even a tiny bit of help. I am not saying socialism where we all make set wages BUT we are not takingyour wealth and redistributing your wealth under Obama. You pay 3% extra in taxes which lets say is $7,500 of $250,000 you can't afford that? If youcan't on the let's say about $75,000 you already pay 1. you are living beyond your means. 2. get an accountant or someone else to do your taxes. Justbecause you are marginally wealthy doesn't mean you don't have to spend money wisely. I know what your saying would you want to pay taxes that high ifyou were making $250,000 the answer is yes as long as my money isn't just being wasted on something stupid and is actually being "trickled down"to people who need it. That is the true term of what trickle down is supposed to be it is supposed to benefit everyone not just a selected. By the way 95% ofAmerica makes less than 250K so majority benefits.

You say that Obama isn't looking out for America, if that's how you think maybe YOU should look out for America first.
 
Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by Essential1

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by KanyeWestJayZ4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=5and wealth redistribution (I'm old fashioned and believe that theft is wrong even when the government does it) because we may not be on the same page on these issues. (However, on the issue of wealth redistribution, I will say this: Do you really believe that the same man who voted to bail out billionaire bankers at the expense of ordinary taxpayers is really going to help the poor stick it to the rich? Really?)
I almost stopped reading after that. I'm glad I kept on reading though, your claims gradually got less ridiculous.


Is it that ridiculous for a me expect to keep everything I have earned?

1. Don't pay taxes if you think your wealth is being redistributed ... 2. No wealth is being redistributed under Obama's tax plan, you are paying a small percentage more and that is saying you are making $250K + in college if so god bless. 3. I should be even more angry than you because the biggest Redistribution of wealth has occured the past 25 years under Reaganomics and trickle down economics.. Your welcome for prospering under the less fortunate's dime. As the gap between rich and poor widened even though the poor worked just as hard as you "rich folk".

As for your whole post there are a few people (not Ron Paul) who could handle this, but to compare Obama to Bush or what McCain would do is really misinformed and completely ridiculous.

Like the post says . . . we won't agree on the issue of government theft . . . buuut I have to address your points

1. "don't pay taxes" . . . come now . . . like it's optional . . .

2. This about is more than the just his tax plan. This is about his stimulus packages, unproductive govt make work jobs, bailouts and all the other components of Mr. Obama's print and spend bailout bonanza. Remember, every dollar he spends on someone, he has to take from another person.

3. Reaganomics and trickle down econ was the biggest redistrib. of wealth? Really? Care to provide details? Figures? Sources?

4. "We" did not prosper on anyone's dime. Just because one person is a dollar richer, it doesnt mean the rest of society is a dollar poorer. That dollar of wealth was created, not taken from others.Government on the other hand cannot create wealth - it can only taken from A and give to B.
So Obama's stimulus packages and bailouts is redistributing the wealth? Hmm, that's an interesting take.
4. "We" did not prosper on anyone's dime. Just because one person is a dollar richer, it doesnt mean the rest of society is a dollar poorer. That dollar of wealth was created, not taken from others.Government on the other hand cannot create wealth - it can only taken from A and give to B.
I don't see what this has to do with Obama. By the way, the stimulus package and bailout isn't taking money from one person and giving it to another. It's taking money from all and putting it in the economy.

I still fail to see how he's "redistrubting the wealth." I think all the Karl Marx and communism status you've seen on facebook is making you a little bit biased.


What is the economy? Who is the economy? and what does it mean to "put money into [an] economy?"
 
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ron paul.
 
When a politician decides he is going to take money and "put it into the economy" he assumes the mantle of economic planner - trying to spoonfeedcredit and spending "into an economy" that is suffering from the effects of 2 decades of excess of both. Gov'ts have no money - they have to takethe funds from you and me and spend it on a make work, unproductive, non wealth generating job. This comes at the expense of multiple jobs that will never seethe light of day in the real, wealth producing, sustainable economy. The net effect is a negative. To make matters worse, govt jobs need not justify theirexistence - they merely take money from our pockets to fund themselves. Private enterprise, in contrast, has to justify every single job. Every job in theprivate market - aside from industries propped up by government subsidies (auto, farming, airline) has to justify its existence - otherwise it will not exist.Even stock brokers who add almost 0 added value, had to convince us that they were worth the money they got paid. Unlike politicians, they lack the coercivepower to simpley take our money.

Let me ask you this: what does "putting it into the economy" mean? what are the expected effects? is it going to "jumpstart the economy"like it's a car? what are the metrics involved - how much money is enough? what happens when every road is repaved and every bridge has been tightened -what happens to the economy then?
 
Rexanglorum, I for the most part agree but to say "Obamanomics" decreases incentive to be rich is a little weird. Couldn't think of a better termto use. But Reaganomics calling it trickle-down and a failure is not a weak argument because it failed under Reagan and it failed under Bush. I am not againstfree market or tax cuts but to depend on the rich to create economic prosperity by giving them more taxes is proven to be false on the most part. If everyonegets tax cuts it would be easiest to give everyone the same amount of money back such as $500 in terms of like the stimulus but that be the actual tax policy.And I even believe that is a bad idea because so much tax revenue is lost in across the board tax cuts it would do more hurt than help. So why should it bethat the most well off pay a little more than those who are less well off standing on 1 leg? There is nothing wrong with it and those who complain about iteither don't know what it is like to struggle financially or just are so greedy that they can't be separated with a tiny percentage point of money,that doesn't change them from rich to poor. If it did that I would be against it.

Onto state, come on are you really that brainwashed on your thinking. Green jobs are absolutely necessary and the net gain is far more than zero. Not onlywould going green create many necessary jobs it makes us more energy efficient and look at that not only helps the environment it saves us money. You wouldhave jobs teaching, building, implementing and maintaining the energy shift. So the net positive is far greater than zero. Also any economic plan is impossibleto gauge the expected effects because the free market fluctuates. Also it is impossible to pave every road because roads need to be paved every few years (mainroads) it would take a few years to pave majority of roads in a town and you would start by paving the busiest road. Therefore by the time you finish look atthat the busy road needs to be paved again starting that cycle. Also new bridges in cities either need heavy overhaul or entirely new bridges that will take adecade to complete and buildings constantly need to be fixed and built. Infrastructure is a constant process.
 
Originally Posted by Essential1

Onto state, come on are you really that brainwashed on your thinking. Green jobs are absolutely necessary and the net gain is far more than zero. Not only would going green create many necessary jobs it makes us more energy efficient and look at that not only helps the environment it saves us money. You would have jobs teaching, building, implementing and maintaining the energy shift. So the net positive is far greater than zero.

If that were the case, the private markets would have invested in them a long time ago.

Second, what do politicians know about energy?? What qualifies them to decide what energy source is best? Remember the ethanol fiasco

Third, infrastructure would be a great investment if we had a surplus like China, but we dont. We are the greatest debtor nation in history, and we cannot afford this.

Finally, this is all contingent on the rest of the world continuing to finance Mr. Obama's plan.

Also any economic plan is impossible to gauge the expected effects because the free market fluctuates.

Not sure what you're getting at? Care to elaborate?

Also it is impossible to pave every road because roads need to be paved every few years (main roads) it would take a few years to pave majority of roads in a town and you would start by paving the busiest road. Therefore by the time you finish look at that the busy road needs to be paved again starting that cycle. Also new bridges in cities either need heavy overhaul or entirely new bridges that will take a decade to complete and buildings constantly need to be fixed and built. Infrastructure is a constant process.

First I was speaking metaphorically.
Second, the depreciation of assets is NOT a good thing. Have you heard of the Broken Window Fallacy?
 
Where were all these salty !%$ people when Bush "won", these the same people who gladly voted for bush trying to bash my vote, F outta here.

We just had the obvious WOST president ever, and these people have the nerve to act like Obama is gonna be worst, I didnt even waste my time reading that trashof a post.....
 
Originally Posted by Essential1

When people discuss tax cuts it is always yeah let's help the rich to help the poor. They deserve the most money back. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! Actually no you don't you make the most money so why do you deserve the most money back in taxes?? When we have done this you have proven that you don't help everyone else you walk away when you see people ask for a hand or even a tiny bit of help. I am not saying socialism where we all make set wages BUT we are not taking your wealth and redistributing your wealth under Obama. You pay 3% extra in taxes which lets say is $7,500 of $250,000 you can't afford that? If you can't on the let's say about $75,000 you already pay 1. you are living beyond your means. 2. get an accountant or someone else to do your taxes. Just because you are marginally wealthy doesn't mean you don't have to spend money wisely. I know what your saying would you want to pay taxes that high if you were making $250,000 the answer is yes as long as my money isn't just being wasted on something stupid and is actually being "trickled down" to people who need it. That is the true term of what trickle down is supposed to be it is supposed to benefit everyone not just a selected. By the way 95% of America makes less than 250K so majority benefits.

You say that Obama isn't looking out for America, if that's how you think maybe YOU should look out for America first.
all youre doing is rationalizing. the point isnt whether or not i am able to afford to pay more taxes. someone else shouldnt be allowed to makethat decision for me. i have no problem with those who may want to voluntarily give up more of their hard earned income. obama got plenty of votes, let thehalf of the country that voted for him and his policies make up that slack. put YOUR money where your mouth is, not mine.
 
um...... hes only been in office for a week, give the guy a chance, You guys tolerate Bush for 8 years with all his CRAP and Obama is getting criticized aftera week................oh yea if you are an opponent of this stimulus plan, stop acting like you have money please...........you really dont. Ive read most ofthe stimulus plan and honestly its meant to help middle class and lower middle class citizens and ppl want his head. smh
 
Originally Posted by gambit215

um...... hes only been in office for a week, give the guy a chance, You guys tolerate Bush for 8 years with all his CRAP and Obama is getting criticized after a week................oh yea if you are an opponent of this stimulus plan, stop acting like you have money please...........you really dont. Ive read most of the stimulus plan and honestly its meant to help middle class and lower middle class citizens and ppl want his head. smh
i dont know what you consider real money, but obama jeopardizes my tax bracket. 250K for a household is nowhere near rich, especially on thecoasts. secondly, i tolerated bush for eight years by voting for gore and kerry...
 
who cares the election is over ... there is absolutely nothing you can do about it now.
sure you can "open my eyes" but isn't it a little too late for that?
give the guy a chance, for everyone's sake they should be praying that his plans work.
 
Originally Posted by mr delorean

Originally Posted by gambit215

um...... hes only been in office for a week, give the guy a chance, You guys tolerate Bush for 8 years with all his CRAP and Obama is getting criticized after a week................oh yea if you are an opponent of this stimulus plan, stop acting like you have money please...........you really dont. Ive read most of the stimulus plan and honestly its meant to help middle class and lower middle class citizens and ppl want his head. smh
i dont know what you consider real money, but obama jeopardizes my tax bracket. 250K for a household is nowhere near rich, especially on the coasts. secondly, i tolerated bush for eight years by voting for gore and kerry...
Yea...its not rich but you definitely aren't hurting...and if you are...it's most likely because YOU made stupid decisions with yourmoney. It is your money though...so I digress. Bottom line is there are plenty of people who are hurting and obviously Obama's objective is to get thosepeople to where they aren't. So yes you may give up some luxuries....but his main objective is, rightfully so, the US as a whole....and people in your taxbracket make up a miniscule part of society. I can understand you being opposed to some of his proposals...because you want to keep your money. Butrealistically that exact mindset is why the "trickle down" effect won't work. I don't know if he's going to be great, ok, terrible...butpeople are calling for his head, and riding WAYYYY to early.
 
Originally Posted by JsindaA

and people in your tax bracket make up a miniscule part of society.
that miniscule part of society already pays the largest amount of taxes. the bottom 50%+ either dont pay taxes, or get a "refund" oncredits, money they never earned. how much more in handouts is really necessary?
 
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