Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens...do they get put in the HOF?

IF you don't think HGH and anabolic steroids have more effect than greenies your kidding yourself
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Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by dmxfury

Are we really comparing the effects of 'greenies' vs steriods and HGH type substances? Maybe some can paint the broad stroke of 'chewing is cheating' but the degree of the effects are pretty obvious to me
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Disagree with this completely.

1. The benefits of taking HGH for baseball are dubious at best, in fact most scientists would tell you that if you bough HGH hoping to become bigger, stronger and hit the ball farther you wasted you money.


2. In baseball, a sport where the main crux involves repeating complex bio mechanical motions like (swinging a bat, repeating delivery) mental fatigue is just as damaging if not more so than physical fatigue, in fact If I had the choice between simply taking a pill that would insure that I was mentally locked and better able to execute my swing better, focus better at the plate.  vs taking a substance that, if I kill myself in the gym for months at the end of it I may be able to hit the ball farther?...give me the pill.
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   Or would you rather take something that aided in your recovery from physical fatigue? 
 
So it's pretty much let's give everyone else a pass but crucify this era because MLB as a whole was idiotic enough not to test. Plus, they already revived their sport and made all the money they could off of them. Now it's not just cheating anymore, we're going to separate it by degrees of cheating? I think it's starting to creep on just splitting hairs. Or just because the folks in the HOF who did "cheat" are a lot easier to like and were kinder to fans and the media. Another reason the HOF is just another sham in MLB.
 
Osh Kosh, there is a reason power numbers exploded in the last era like never before. The heightened effect of steroids were obvious when compared to past forms of cheating. Just a simple eye test is all that's needed.


I still say these guys should get in the Hall, the asterisk is there whether official or not in the minds of fans
 
common misconception, they didn't "explode" power numbers have been going up forever.

In football, i would take steroids but in a sport like baseball  id much rather be "all the way turnt up" mentally.
 
Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by dmxfury

Are we really comparing the effects of 'greenies' vs steriods and HGH type substances? Maybe some can paint the broad stroke of 'chewing is cheating' but the degree of the effects are pretty obvious to me
Click to expand...

Disagree with this completely.

1. The benefits of taking HGH for baseball are dubious at best, in fact most scientists would tell you that if you bough HGH hoping to become bigger, stronger and hit the ball farther you wasted you money.


2. In baseball, a sport where the main crux involves repeating complex bio mechanical motions like (swinging a bat, repeating delivery) mental fatigue is just as damaging if not more so than physical fatigue, in fact If I had the choice between simply taking a pill that would insure that I was mentally locked and better able to execute my swing better, focus better at the plate.  vs taking a substance that, if I kill myself in the gym for months at the end of it I may be able to hit the ball farther?...give me the pill.
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You never cease to baffle me with the !*+! that you say
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josh hamilton is on roids. so is everyone else.. its too common sense.. there are variant drugs....

larry takes it too..

i think andy petitte is taking some too. these guys are freaks.
 
Disagree with this completely.

1. The benefits of taking HGH for baseball are dubious at best, in fact most scientists would tell you that if you bough HGH hoping to become bigger, stronger and hit the ball farther you wasted you money.


2. In baseball, a sport where the main crux involves repeating complex bio mechanical motions like (swinging a bat, repeating delivery) mental fatigue is just as damaging if not more so than physical fatigue, in fact If I had the choice between simply taking a pill that would insure that I was mentally locked and better able to execute my swing better, focus better at the plate.  vs taking a substance that, if I kill myself in the gym for months at the end of it I may be able to hit the ball farther?...give me the pill.

Come on.....you aren't seriously valuing the effects of green pills popped in the 60's over today's calendar-controlled and monitored PED's are you?
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Originally Posted by FIRST B0RN

Where'd Osh go?
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I think you're both wrong.

People way way way overrate the use of steroids and underrate the effects of amphetamines, you can look at the Mitchell report and see that half those players still sucked with or without steroids.
 
Dude...Barry Bonds became the best hitter ever at 36 years old.  Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs.  Look at the guys who hit 40+, guys who hit 25+, man its not arguable.  I'ma Mets fan, I love Mike Piazza but the guy used to literally one hand home runs to opposite fields.  If your a scrub did steroids help you become scrubby? Prolly not.  But if your already one of the best hitters ever like Bonds? It means you can just try to hit muscle it every time and the chance of it going out expands significantly.  I mean AT&T isn't even an easy park to hit home runs and the guy was sending them to the water like it was light.  Be real dude, Bonds is a HOF no question but Anabolic steroids and greenies don't compare.  Now there is a couple guys every year who hit 40, while during that era 40 home runs wouldn't even put you in the top 5.  I mean Greg Vaughn hit 50 that year and was an afterthought.
Sometimes I confused how you come up with your arguments man.
 
Absolutely they do. PED =/= production. You still have to put in the work to get the results
 
What Osh is saying is that during the season a large majority of players are not going on massive lifting programs and PED cycling to get the full effects. They just as easily can live the hotel life and pop the greenies before games for that pick me up. And that obviously has validity especiallly with baseball players.
 
I don't see how everyone can villify (sp?) this era of guys but fail to not even broach the subject of the cheaters who are already in the hall.  You start holding guys out because of that, then (IMO) you need to start digging into those already in there.  Or if you're gonna put some kind of asterisk next to steroid era names, then asterisks need to be doled out for EVERYONE in the hall.  They've made it a vendetta against these players because MLB made major mistakes.  Now don't take this as me saying that was these guys did was right at all.  I'll just always hold the stance that there has been cheating in every era.

Hank Greenberg
Gaylord Perry
Mickey Mantle
Ty Cobb
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays

The list goes on and on.  These dumb #%+ HOF voters have a character clause in their voting criteria but guys like Ruth and Teddy Williams got in with no trouble.
 
I will not go as far as Osh and say that amphetamines have a substantially bigger effect than steroids do.....but people in this thread are SEVERLY undervaluing the benefits of taking them.

Regardless, what Osh is saying holds a TON of truth, and people laughing at him have shown me that their knowledge of baseball is lacking.
 
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I fail to believe that amphetamines really can help you in the way a drug that transforms you into an action figure can.

Cheating is cheating I agree with you guys, but to say there isn't levels of cheating is just as ridiculous. That's like saying all crimes should be viewed in the same light cause your breaking the law.

Two muscled out monssters literally crushed the home run record in the same year.  Dudes went up to the plate trying to hit it out one every play.  Strength>>>Focus, these guys get paid tens of millions of dollars to focus, %@!+ ain't that hard.  Transforming your body and giving you exaggerated strength is undeniably more beneficial.
 
Sosa is never getting in.

Still, his stat lines are still just great reading material
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1998 -- 66 HR, 158 RBI, 134 R, .308 BA, .647 SLG
1999 -- 62 HR, 141 RBI, 114 R, .288 BA, .635 SLG
2000 -- 50 HR, 138 RBI, 106 R, .320 BA, .634 SLG
2001 -- 64 HR, 160 RBI, 146 R, .328 BA, .737 SLG
 
Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Sometimes I confused how you come up with your arguments man.
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Sometimes? I'm always confused with how he comes up with his arguements. Osh is like the Skip Bayless of S & T.
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Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1


Cheating is cheating I agree with you guys, but to say there isn't levels of cheating is just as ridiculous. That's like saying all crimes should be viewed in the same light cause your breaking the law

  
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Crimes are crimes, this is just baseball
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 but I get your point.  I won't say I disagree but I'll say that the level of cheating before the steroid era is severly overlooked because they were (for the most part) done by guys who are loved or who weren't +#%** to the media/fans.
 
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