Is Bruce Jenner Trolling?

[fontaine]

Great dating advice. Ask every girl you're seeing if she use to be a man. I'm sure that will go over really well.

Right....

Yeah, you scared.


Props to Meth for sonning DC.

Not really sure if meff is sonning DC right now...

Both great points, but DC is being more realistic

 

[elecrelaxation]

 

You keep drawing this false equivalency to race.

One is natural. One wasn't even possible until recently.

One included major surgery to change your identity, one didn't.

One means you're hiding a huge part of your past identity and a major life decision you made.

One means you have to regular maintain your hormone levels or you begin to revert back to having traits of your birth sex.

One means you can't have children.

The only reason you're even making this comparison is because of how sensitive the topic of race is, but in terms of actual merit, you might as well be comparing it to a profession or literally anything else, that's about how much they have in common.

You're just refusing to acknowledge the similarities because you insist on using the word "unnatural" in much the same way as as 17th century bigot.

"Race mixing wasn't possible until only recently.  If God wanted the races to mix, he wouldn't have separated them by continent."  

"Passing for White means hiding a huge part of your identity."  

Similarly, "if you're sterile and you fail to disclose this immediately, you're being deceptive by refusing to inform your prospective partner that you're an unnatural freak of nature."  

There are cisgender men who take testosterone supplements and cisgender women who take estrogen supplements.  Should they wear identity cards that say "unnatural?"   Should people who've had cosmetic or reconstructive surgery? 

You know you're on shaky ground if you've established the prejudice before the rationalization.  You're scrambling to come up with legitimate sounding reasons to explain "ick" and "eew."  

I'm using unnatural in the same way that the dictionary describes the word unnatural. I think it's shaky ground when you resort to calling someone a bigot. I haven't scrambled for anything. Everything I've stated is issues that most people would have problems with or would at least find necessary to discuss. That discussion can't happen if a trans person is unwilling to share that they're trans out of fear of rejection.

Maybe I'd agree with you if this was a perfect transition. Like you've snapped your fingers and everything is changed for all functions and purposes (although it still means you're intentionally hiding a large portion of your life from someone). But, that's not the case. Genetically you're still a man. Functionally you're not a woman. For the most part, all you've essentially done is change what's on the surface. People have the right to know as a straight man that they're essentially dating a man wearing a mask. That might sound insensitive, but it's the truth. In 1800 this wasn't possible at all. In 2015, this is still a heavily flawed science that still falls far short of it's goal. It's unknown territory. People have the right to know.

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

How about this:

When someone meets a woman, dates her for a month or two, kisses her, smashes, and then she reveals to that she was born a dude, thus deceiving you, make a thread.

Until then, hide under your security blankets

 

[jape]

How about this:

When someone meets a woman, dates her for a month or two, kisses her, smashes, and then she reveals to that she was born a dude, thus deceiving you, make a thread.

Until then, hide under your security blankets

How about you just not read this thread. There has been a lot of healthy debate these last couple of pages.

 

[frankmatthews]

If you are straight and you want to have a family and pass your seed down does NOT mean you are fearful of getting involved with someone who can not offer you that.

It should be a law that infertile women have to disclose that information

If I express at some point that I want a family and she knows she is infertile, telling me asap would be the mature, responsible thing to do. Keeping it to herself because that's her right and she shouldn't have tell anyone if she doesn't want to would be the selfish, immature thing to do. If you need to put a law on the books to require your potential wife to be a good person then it probably wasn't gonna work out anyway.

On the subject of transgender relationships, the fact that you were wearing a dress and had **** when i got your number should be synonymous with expressing what my wants/intentions are.

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

How about you just not read this thread. There has been a lot of healthy debate these last couple of pages.

Yes, the point about the trans agenda being furthered by the occult worship of the androgynous demonic deity Baphomet was intellectually riveting.

Also the statement about rapists disguising themselves as transgenders in order to sneak into our bathrooms and assault unsuspecting victims certainly stands as one of the pinnacles of intellectual discourse

 

[Methodical Management]

Im all for people doing what they want to do unless they harm others. Deceiving straight dudes into sex is damn near rape.

If a Ms. Doubtfire looking dudette was out here tricking lesbians and bi women into sex he would be considered a serial rapist.

But if he tricks a man its ok?

Deception is different than being who you are.  

There's a reason why I said you should be the one to bear the burden if you're scared that there's even a tiny chance that you might hold hands with a transgender person. If you're the one who's afraid, then why shouldn't  you be the one to ask the question?  

I don't believe it's fair to assume that a transgender person is "deceiving" someone or "being something they're not" just by living their lives. 

The core of this is the assumption that a transgender person is trying to be something that they're not - and that's an attempt to present their identity as illegitimate.  

Case in point:  

Did you go into the Amber Rose thread and chastise those who find breast and butt implants disgusting? After all, these women are just trying to be comfortable in their own skin. They always felt they should have big breasts and big butts so it's completely natural and acceptable for them to inject chemicals into their body to bring their physical appearance more in line with how they feel? Correct? If I told you Kim K and Amber Rose have psychological issues and deep mental and emotional instability that makes them equate their worth or significance or happiness with how they appear physically to others, would I be a bigot? If I told you that hating who you are and what you were born with, physically, to the point of self-mutilation is unhealthy behavior, that placing such importance on how you are perceived visually by others is unhealthy and likely not going to be remedied by surgeries, would I be insecure? I guess I'm just siliconephobic?

1)  You wouldn't say that a woman who "lured a man into sleeping with her using prosthetic buttocks" was practicing a form of deception on par with rape.  That's an argument that's been made in this thread.

2)  You wouldn't say that a woman who can't satisfy your "natural procreative drive" should disclose her sterility INSTANTLY.  (A particularly facetious argument given that the majority of relationships these days are non-procreative, and are intentionally non-procreative through use of "unnatural" contraceptives.  

What you're engaged in is a logical contortion to try and invent a way to ridicule and invalidate a transgender person's sexuality.  

There is nothing natural about gender.  It is a human construct.  Males of other species don't have the same behavioral affectations as males are expected to demonstrate in our society, nor are the biological differences as emphasized (or mythologized).  In some human societies, there are more than two genders.  There are more than two archetypes.  

So, let's first recognize that there's an attempt here to "naturalize" a cultural abstraction.  The division of labor among other species has more to do with the nature of that species offspring than with the "nature of the sexes."  Human division of labor is what it is largely because our offspring cannot cling the way other primates can.  

All this cultural baggage about gender identity has little to nothing to do with biology.  

Sexuality exists on a continuum.  It is resistant to typology.  We've been raised with the false supposition of a sex-inscribed male/female dichotomy that, from birth, circumscribes much of who we are and what we can be.  

Future generations will not be so encumbered, and that's scary to people in the same way that interracial marriage was scary.  It challenged what they considered to be the "natural order of things."  

In reality, though, people are people.

The fracturing or queering of a typology makes it impractical to police its boundaries.  For example:  "you can't do this job if you're _______."  "You can't have these feelings if you're ______."   There are places on this Earth where people literally carry racial identity cards. That's how ridiculous hanging on to that system of inequality has become. 

The thought of losing that handle on sex and gender, losing that ability (which was illusory to begin with) to delineate and define on that basis, is threatening.  

And so we as a society will once again have to deal with all the tired tropes about what's "natural," and all the frenzied, paranoid fantasies about what will become of the future in a world where the false certainty of inherited identity has no merit, all to protect a form of unearned privilege.  

"If a woman can run for president, then why can't a two year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac from another planet?  WHAT THEN!?! OIMOGMGOMOGMOGMGOMGOGMOGMOGM  And then I'M the bigot because I'm two-year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac-ophobic, right!?   False outrage I say!  FALSE OUTRAGE!"   

It's almost hilarious how far backwards some of you will bend over to justify prejudice.  

Both great points, but DC is being more realistic

Accomodationism was once characterized as "more realistic."  "Stay in your lane, seeking true equality is dangerous.  Settle for "better." 

If you have a prejudice, that should be considered YOUR problem - not everyone else's.  THAT is the point I've been making, but people are SO terrified of accidentally liking a transgender person that they're freaking out.  

 

[tomdiginson]

How about you just not read this thread. There has been a lot of healthy debate these last couple of pages.

This. Dude comes into the thread and every single page post nonsense and try to derail the thread.

 

[heliumclinton]

If you are straight and you want to have a family and pass your seed down does NOT mean you are fearful of getting involved with someone who can not offer you that.

It should be a law that infertile women have to disclose that information

I know you're being sarcastic but most adults disclose that information in their relationship. One that doesn't wont be able to hide it for long if their partner wants to have a kid.

Yeah .. same with transgendered

 

[jape]

Yes, the point about the trans agenda being furthered by the occult worship of the androgynous demonic deity Baphomet was intellectually riveting.

Also the statement about rapists disguising themselves as transgenders in order to sneak into our bathrooms and assault unsuspecting victims certainly stands as one of the pinnacles of intellectual discourse

That's all you picked up from the last couple of pages..? Exit thread. Your problems are solved. Your welcome.

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

 
"If a woman can run for president, then why can't a two year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac from another planet?  WHAT THEN!?! OIMOGMGOMOGMOGMGOMGOGMOGMOGM  And then I'M the bigot because I'm two-year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac-ophobic, right!?   False outrage I say!  FALSE OUTRAGE!"   

It's almost hilarious how far backwards some of you will bend over to justify prejudice. 

This is literally the backbone of their entire argument

"What's to stop *insert ridiculous scenario* from happening?!

 

[mr marcus]

If you are straight and you want to have a family and pass your seed down does NOT mean you are fearful of getting involved with someone who can not offer you that.

It should be a law that infertile women have to disclose that information

I know you're being sarcastic but most adults disclose that information in their relationship. One that doesn't wont be able to hide it for long if their partner wants to have a kid.

Yeah .. same with transgendered

Nah they get exposed immediately before intercourse takes place. Then that's when dudes start flipping like the numerous stories out here

 

[RustyShackleford]

If you are straight and you want to have a family and pass your seed down does NOT mean you are fearful of getting involved with someone who can not offer you that.

It should be a law that infertile women have to disclose that information

I know you're being sarcastic but most adults disclose that information in their relationship. One that doesn't wont be able to hide it for long if their partner wants to have a kid.

Yeah .. same with transgendered

Nah they get exposed immediately before intercourse takes place. Then that's when dudes start flipping like the numerous stories out here

And I've heard numerous stories of transgender people telling potential mates from the jump.

You shouldn't use the "there are stories" to make blanket judgments.

C'mon brah, you better than that. That's the foundation of the "what bout black on black crime" nonsense

 

[mr marcus]

I'm speaking specifically on that scenario. Wasn't accusing all TS of that and it all started over someone bringing up crime against TS. I mentioned the only crimes that I've seen frequently against them that were classified as "hate" was those type.

Think he posted another link with 7 unsolved TS crimes but you cant automatically link unsolved to hate crimes. There's unsolved crimes of all natures and you can't assume it was behind hate without evidence.

The other link he posted was of a TS boyfriend being the killer. Again that isn't a hate crime but this was pages back.

My post was still on that and not whatever else was being talked about currently.

 

[htg designs]

Bruce a lame. Michael Jackson did the same thing without the coming out party. Dude changed gender and race. Step ya game up son.

 

[zapatohead408]

Bruce a lame dime. Michael Jackson did the same thing without the coming out party. Dude changed gender and race. Step ya game up son.

fixed.

wut

 

[celticspride34]

Bruce a lame. Michael Jackson did the same thing without the coming out party. Dude changed gender and race. Step ya game up son.

Yeah... And he chose to touch little boys and pay them off.. Instead of using to keep his name public in a positive light...

 

[valleyside]

Bruce is brave for coming out like that. He about to get paid. And we all gonna watch the dam show. Feeding into it like animals. Life is crazy

 

[fontaine]

Yeah... And he chose to touch little boys and pay them off.. Instead of using to keep his name public in a positive light...

So disrespectful

 

[lamekilla]

Mike ain't touch them kids y'all boys chill

 

[zapatohead408]

Mike ain't touch them kids y'all boys chill

wasn't there basically proof of this but it never got out, because it was Michael Jackson?

 

[celticspride34]

Yeah... And he chose to touch little boys and pay them off.. Instead of using to keep his name public in a positive light...

So disrespectful

**** MJ... I'm happy his pedo *** is dead... I feel bad for farrah Fawcett...

 

[frankmatthews]

1)  You wouldn't say that a woman who "lured a man into sleeping with her using prosthetic buttocks" was practicing a form of deception on par with rape.  That's an argument that's been made in this thread.

2)  You wouldn't say that a woman who can't satisfy your "natural procreative drive" should disclose her sterility INSTANTLY.  (A particularly facetious argument given that the majority of relationships these days are non-procreative, and are intentionally non-procreative through use of "unnatural" contraceptives.  

1.) It wasn't MY argument so its irrelevant in your response to me. But since you brought it up I would absolutely say a woman who lured a man into sex using a prosthetic buttocks was practicing a form of deception. "On par with rape" doesn't compute. Deception is not rape, rape is not an act of deception. Its physical assault. You know it is deception with 100% certainty. As if denying it's similarity to rape is to deny the fact it is deception. C'mon meth, you are better. And again, I have not made any arguments based on the off chance a transgender deception takes place, please lets try to stay focused.

2.) As I explained to another poster, I would not expect them to disclose that instantly, but if they became aware of the fact that I did want a family with children it would be selfish and immature of them not to disclose that simply because they have a right not to. She would be placing her wants and needs in regards to the relationship over her partners, which is not a solid foundation for a lasting relationship. An honest and open talk should be had asap especially if she is aware of the discrepancy. In terms of a transgender relationship, the fact that an individual was wearing a dress and had breast implants when I initially asked her out should be enough for them to reasonably assume I want a relationship with a woman, therefore an honest and open talk should take place asap. Again none of this is about disclosure for me, you are responding to other posters in your comments to me. This is about people like you trying to force others to accept behavior which I personally find unhealthy and harmful. I am not one to police peoples bedrooms, I could honestly care less, but i don't need to be equated to a 19th century slavemaster because I find something wrong with inserting your penis into the rectal cavity/inverted penis of another man simply to get high off neurochemicals.

What you're engaged in is a logical contortion to try and invent a way to ridicule and invalidate a transgender person's sexuality.  

There is nothing natural about gender.  It is a human construct.  Males of other species don't have the same behavioral affectations as males are expected to demonstrate in our society, nor are the biological differences as emphasized (or mythologized).  In some human societies, there are more than two genders.  There are more than two archetypes.  

So, let's first recognize that there's an attempt here to "naturalize" a cultural abstraction.  The division of labor among other species has more to do with the nature of that species offspring than with the "nature of the sexes."  Human division of labor is what it is largely because our offspring cannot cling the way other primates can.  

All this cultural baggage about gender identity has little to nothing to do with biology.  

A logical contortion eh? I could say the same about you. You are trying to attribute the qualities of ridicule and invalidation to my arguments and thusly my personality in an attempt to discredit the logic. I hold no ill will and while I may have a negative opinion on certain behaviors, in no way do I feel the need to ridicule of invalidate anyone.

Anyways, you say I am attempting to naturalize a cultural abstraction but that is exactly what you are doing when claiming a transgendered person is just "being who they are". Why, on one hand, does gender have no basis in biology and entirely of human construct, but on the other hand it signifies who you "really" are. What basis do you have for stating that a choice among two opposing social constructs determines who you really are? What factors are at play when an individual undergoes gender reassignment surgery if not genetic or chemical? These "feelings" of being in the wrong body or being born the wrong sex are then a conscious decision, an adoption of specific behavioral patterns and visual representations for the sake of satiating your own psycho-social affliction. If there is no biological basis for gender then nothing is compelling these feelings other than their own conditioned mental state. It is my opinion that that state of mind is an unhealthy one and leads to harmful behavior on both a micro and macro level.

Sexuality exists on a continuum.  It is resistant to typology.  We've been raised with the false supposition of a sex-inscribed male/female dichotomy that, from birth, circumscribes much of who we are and what we can be.  
Future generations will not be so encumbered, and that's scary to people in the same way that interracial marriage was scary.  It challenged what they considered to be the "natural order of things."  

Explain to me how the supposition is false? How can a social dichotomy be false? Social evolution created the behavior which we can now, in hindsight, view as achetypes, for a reason, for social utility. Yet I don't see how evolution toward that end can be considered patently false, and in the same breath hold up some pansexual, gender neutral utopia as truth. That is your personal assumption at best. You would morph a "flawed" dichotomy into a trichotomy/quadchotomy based on, statistically speaking, anomalous, genetically recessive permutations of said "false" dichotomy? Thats truth? Thats progress?

It is also your personal assumption that society as a whole is encumbered by the male-female dichotomy. The cure for sexism and misogyny is not customized gender and homosexuality.

The fracturing or queering of a typology makes it impractical to police its boundaries.  For example:  "you can't do this job if you're _______."  "You can't have these feelings if you're ______."   There are places on this Earth where people literally carry racial identity cards. That's how ridiculous hanging on to that system of inequality has become. 

The thought of losing that handle on sex and gender, losing that ability (which was illusory to begin with) to delineate and define on that basis, is threatening.  

Because my objections are simply a facade for my egomanical urge to police and oppress right? Because hanging on to the concept of male-female, reproductive family units is the same as requiring gender identity cards, right? Can I disagree without being a tyrant? You need to stop this. YOU are contorting logic at this point. How many strawmans were in just those few sentences. I count 5.

And so we as a society will once again have to deal with all the tired tropes about what's "natural," and all the frenzied, paranoid fantasies about what will become of the future in a world where the false certainty of inherited identity has no merit, all to protect a form of unearned privilege.  

Penis goes in vagina, sperm fertilizes egg, humans continue to exist. Look at your parts, now look at your ladys parts, see how they naturally developed to work in conjunction? Natural. Period. Now, perhaps homosexuality, transgenderism, ect is natural as well, idk. Whats your argument? Because we have already established it has no basis in biology. So am curious just how it may be that it is a natural characteristic of humans that should be nurtured and propagated.

"If a woman can run for president, then why can't a two year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac from another planet?  WHAT THEN!?! OIMOGMGOMOGMOGMGOMGOGMOGMOGM  And then I'M the bigot because I'm two-year old demon-spawn homicidal maniac-ophobic, right!?   False outrage I say!  FALSE OUTRAGE!"   

It's almost hilarious how far backwards some of you will bend over to justify prejudice.  

You made a pretty big leap with this one, so much so that I am not even sure what parallels you are trying to draw. Your approach is, and always has been, to manufacture an immoral basis for the opinions of those who disagree with you so you can parlay your own personal biases and beliefs down the moral high road. You've been pretty consistent with that in your response to me. Hoping you had something to substantiate your claims that we will all be so much better off in world without inherited gender identity, as you put it.

 

[julesbeats]

I don't think malcolm x would ever chill with Bruce Jenner at Starbucks meth lol

 

[cashbanks]

The world is a strange, strange place.

As a father things like this concern me greatly, I'll leave it at that since apparently anything other than unwavering support makes you a bigot, but I personally do not look forward to a world where my sons will need to see a birth certificates upon meeting a "female".