Official White Privilege Thread

[airedweezy]

what difference does it make, im in america?

Read my input to the Assuming person who quoted me

 

[hand2handking]

I wanted to see where he is from and see how much racism he has faced and to maybe see his points of view because living in California I can honestly say I have only delt with like two racist insidents.

 

[airedweezy]

Never mind fam

There really is no talking to you

I tried to understand why you feel the way you do. Maybe I thought you faced some hardcore racism that's why but never mind continue being you

 

[hand2handking]

so how does that change what im saying?

if i had noose scar around my neck would you be convinced?

or what if the most racism i ever experienced was not getting a cab? 

does it change any of what i said in here?

 

[airedweezy]

so how does that change what im saying?

if i had noose scar around my neck would you be convinced?

or what if the most racism i ever experienced was not getting a cab? 

does it change any of what i said in here?

I've gone on to say that as extreme as you sound I can somewhat understand you. But I have friends who feel as strong as you who have faced racism and who haven't. I was just wondering if your views where painted by going through it or watching others.


But dam I didn't think you'd get all worked up. if you want other to jump on board don't be so aggressive man. I'll just stay out of these thread seems like if you don't share the same views you are looked down on and attacked irony

 

[hand2handking]

i havent attacked you at all what are you talking about? you asked me before if i was mad and i said yes

but i havent personally accused/attacked you of anything

 

[gwap]

I'm curious to know where hand2hand is from too.

His views of the dynamics of racism lead me to believe that he has gone much more racism than the average person I know, or he just hasn't spent much time around non-racist whites.

I'm from oakland cali, living in LA currently.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

His specific way of thinking could very well have been taught to him growing up. Or it could be a culmination of things he has seen through different outlets.

His location won't necessarily explain his thinking.

 

[gwap]

 
ok first of all ur really trying to tell me that neighborhoods where there are no blacks is because "blacks from the south didnt move there"?

White people are a vast majority of the population. Not every single city/town can have a decent sized black population.  Some places put in place policies to limit black people. Some places just don't have black people cause black just didn't move there from the south.  

and then you say a lack of education, so in other words people are just naturally inclined to hate black people unless they are taught not to? 

Not every racist understands racism and White privilege. You know What type of White person is most racist? The ones who think black people have privilege.  There's No way to explain this phenomenon other than ignorance of the actual dynamics of the racial divide. The institution of racism is purposely created. The actual widespread practice of racism is just a mixture of social dogma and ignorance of the dynamics of race relations.

then you say to think anything else is conspiracy? like really think about what your saying.  over 400 years of putting us down, but you seem to think its not through people actively working to keep it going 

The institution of racism is purposely created. 

so white people dont pass down racism? they dont teach it to their children?

The actual widespread practice of racism is just a  mixture of social dogma and ignorance of the dynamics of race relations.  

im not going to entertain anything else you wrote about what i would think, because quite simply im not going to tell you what i think you would say if you were black.

I am black

lol... you responded without even reading my full post...

i'm just copying and pasting my previous words to answer each of your points...

Dogma:   a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system

I don't know if you feel like debating or just ranting... you are asking questions that are already answered and arguing points that I've already explained.

 

[gwap]

His specific way of thinking could very well have been taught to him growing up. Or it could be a culmination of things he has seen through different outlets.

His location won't necessarily explain his thinking.

I'm not saying his locations explains his entire being... but it could give insight into his mindset....

I know for sure my birthplace helped define the attributes of alot of people's personality... look at marshawn lynch born and bred in the town

 

[hand2handking]

 

but ur talking out of both sides of ur mouth

if you're calling it "social dogma" or whatever the bottom line is that you recognize that its not mere ignorance

so it cant be just a conspiracy

 

[hand2handking]

what is my specific way of thinking?

because im not "playing nice",  by not being willing to buy any bs excuses and rationale?

 

[deleted]

Thread's kinda going off the rails again...

 

[RIP sleazyy]

what is my specific way of thinking?

because im not "playing nice",  by not being willing to buy any bs excuses and rationale?

Just the way you think in general being your specific mindset. Don't take it as a jab.

No one is asking you to take BS but sometimes you seem to approach these conversations already set on not even trying to listen to anything that doesn't coincide with how you feel and think. It sucks because you make great points at times.

 

[hand2handking]

^^

 [h1]Colorblind and Laissez Racism[/h1]
Posted on  July 27, 2006  by  Rachel S.

If you haven’t had the chance to read anything from professor Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, I highly reccomend his books–this post) discussing some of Bonilla Silva’s views on “race talk” in the colorblind era. I think Dr. Bonilla-Silva added a few more elements in the final draft of the book than he had in the earlier article that Granny cites.

Here are a few quotes from the theory section of my dissertation discussing Bonilla-Silva’s views on colorblind racism. For those who are interested in social theory, I combined a symbolic interactionist (Goffman’s and Blumer) perspective with contemporary racism theory as the foundation for the study research.

Several stylistic and ideological characteristics distinguish the “new racism” from its predecessor. Bobo, et. al. (1997) argue that laissez faire racism involves three key elements– persistent negative stereotyping of African Americans, opposition to policies to improve the conditions of African Americans, and a tendency to blame African Americans for the persistent gap in socio-economic standing. Bonilla-Silva (2001) adds other characteristics, which are particularly helpful at identifying the “style” of contemporary racism—1) increasingly covert racial discourses and practices, 2) avoidance of racial terminology and claims by whites that they experience “reverse discrimination,” 3) a racial agenda in the discussion of political matters that avoids direct racial references, 4) invisibility of the mechanisms of racial inequality, and 5) the rearticulation of some of the elements of Jim Crow racism (pg. 90). One of the most important elements of contemporary racism is the emergence of the “colorblind ideology.” The colorblind ideology asserts that color is not important and should not be the basis for social judgments. The key problem with colorblind ideology is that it is an abstract principle that does not hold true in practice, particularly in the practice of marriage and intimacy (Bonilla Silva 2001). This new racist ideology is often referred to as colorblind or laissez faire racism.

Here is another quote on the specific issues that Granny raises.

Bonilla Silva’s (2003) concept of race talk is particularly useful because he talks about the rhetorical strategies that that Whites use to avoid be labeled as racist. These strategies are very clear examples of the face work used maintain the illusion of antiracism. For example, Bonilla Silva talks about the—“I’m not racist but…” and “Some of my best friends are….” statements that Whites use in discussing racism. These statements are almost immediately followed but negative assessments of racial minority groups. Bonilla Silva identifies several other semantic maneuvers that are common.

1) The “I’m not Black so I wouldn’t know” strategy, in which White respondents claim to not know or understand racism and its effects. 2) The “yes and not, but” strategy, in which Whites claim initially to not have favorable position but then go on to express their actual views. 3) The “anything but race strategy,” in which Whites argue that nonracial factors explain racial outcomes. 4) The “they are the racist ones strategy,” in which Whites try to shift away from their own racism by projecting their views on to Blacks. 5) The dimunitives strategy, which includes statements such as life is “a little  harder for interracial couples. 6) The rhetorical incoherence strategy, in which Whites are clearly uncomfortable and make contradictory and incomprehensible statements. These strategies all help Whites save face and avoid the label of “racist” in front of their peers. This is particularly important since front stage discussions of racial issues are less and less candid, and avoiding the impression of racism is important for the maintenance of a positive self image under the system of contemporary racial ideology.

An additional frame not discussed in the above quotes, is what Bonilla-Silva calls the naturalization framework. When people naturalize racism, they see the current racial order as normal or natural. They may use comments such as “it’s just natural to want to be around your own kind.”

 
Rac•ism, n. 1. the idea that one's own race is superior. 2. a policy or practice based on such an idea. 3. discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

Institutionalized racism, n. Racism that has become part of the normal behavior of people within an organization.

What? A bit harsh, perhaps? No, not really.

There are several obstacles that stand in the way of recognizing and acknowledging racism. The first is what is often meant by racism, and how that definition has (wrongly) overlooked the meaning. Another is blindness to the racism that is around us. And, finally, how something can be racist without intending that it be so (which makes it no less racist).

Racism means ...

A problem with raising the "R" word is our severe reaction to it. Racism is seen as "remote and extreme", and mention of it provokes strong reactions on all sides. One study found that not only was racism one of "the major barriers to improving communications," but use of the word racism "seemed to disable dialogue between the American Indian and non-Indian participants."

The thought that we are - or are associated with something that is - racist is appalling and offensive to most people. This results, in part, from our narrow interpretations of the issue.

"racism is seen as an absolute - either you're infected, or you're not"
"racism equals disliking others because of their race"
"racism is not considered racism unless it wears a hood and burns a cross"

Extreme definitions have a purpose: it lets us off the hook. As author David Shipler points out, mainstream white Americans "are quite generous in giving themselves the benefit of the doubt. They tend to define racism narrowly enough that it does not tarnish them."

We are being too generous - to ourselves. Racism isn't always so clean cut. There are shades of gray, including "soft"8 or what sociologist Lawrence Bobo calls "laissez-faire" racism. Underlying laissez-faire racism is the belief that discrimination "is largely a thing of the past" even while negative beliefs and stereotypes about blacks, Native Americans and other minorities "remain not merely commonplace, but deeply rooted" in our society.

Racism isn't gone - it is alive and well. Can you see it?

"Most racism in my experience was very subtle, which is just as bad as blatant racism because it feels wrong but you can't put your finger on it."

Blind spots

It has been argued that those with European roots think differently about race than do others. Those who "don't identify strongly with any ethnic group ... tend to take race for granted or view it as somehow irrelevant," according to Yale professor Harlon Dalton, who concludes "the inability or unwillingness of many white people to think of themselves in racial terms ... produces huge blind spots."

"When is the last time you questioned your beliefs and attitudes? Perhaps it is time."

Al Bernstein said "beauty is in the heart of the beholder." What about racism? If you haven't been the recipient (or target) of it, you may underestimate or be unaware of racism, and the damage it does.

We meant no harm

How can something - or someone - be racist without actively trying? Even if not intended as such, harm can be done by stereotypical language and imagery. Author Cornel Pewewardy: "to further understand why this is racist, consider how euphemisms and code words for ethnic persons and groups are used: scalp, massacre, *******, squaw, noble savage, papoose, Pocahontas, Cherokee princess." As a result of such language, "Indigenous peoples are dehumanized by society at large." 

In another example, Blacks and Asian - Americans speaking standard English "are often praised unduly for how well we speak." The underlying assumption is all too clear.

Racism "threatens one with being negatively stereotyped, with being judged or treated stereotypically, or with the prospect of conforming to the stereotype."

Views and Pain: Examples of Racism

We live within a society where a certain degree of racism persists. It may be subtle, misunderstood, or openly tolerated, but it exists nonetheless ... and those most qualified to recognize it are those suffering because of it. We should accept that we cannot fully appreciate racism without feeling subjected to it. Read what has been said ...

"laissez-faire racism: a system wherein we accept however much inequality and segregation by race that a putatively free-market and race-neutral state can allow."

"Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. - Dennis Leary

"The music field was the first to break down racial barriers, because in order to play together, you have to love the people you are playing with, and if you have any racial inhibitions, you wouldn't be able to do that." - Oscar Peterson, 1994.

"The look" is "a look whites often give blacks who don't fit the composite notion of a Negro." A young black female television executive, who "gets the look whenever she flies first class," says "flight attendants usually direct me to the right, toward the back of the plane," and ask to see her ticket when she says her seat is in first class.

One mixed-race young (24 yo) man commented on the dirty looks his sister - with much darker skin - receives. "To them, she was just an Indian ... all they knew were labels and stereotypes, not her."

"At a diversity workshop for some two hundred blacks, whites, Latinos, and Asians, the facilitator asked all those who never had to worry about a check or a credit card being refused because of their race or ethnicity to stand. Only we whites rose to our feet, and we were left standing for a long time looking at one another, and into the eyes of those still seated."

From a sixteen-year-old girl: "I think there's still racism everywhere. It's not as outwardly noticeable as it once was; there are not as many crosses burning in people's yards. But it's still there -- a lot of it is institutionalized."

"This tradition [of ethnic symbols in sports], I insist, is a mix of racism with sports enthusiasm under the guise of team spirit."

"Racism cannot thrive when a community says we will not tolerate these attitudes and actions."

"This is the ideal: to search your attitudes, identify your stereotypes, and correct for them as you go about your daily duties. In the end, managing prejudice becomes a very personal task."

"How many minority people have to tell you they are offended before you are going to say this is racism?"

"Most people have no intention of supporting a racist practice, but intentionally or not, they do perpetuate a romantic stereotype."

You may not mean it. You may not see it. You may not care to look at it. 

 

[gwap]

 
but ur talking out of both sides of ur mouth

if you're calling it "social dogma" or whatever the bottom line is that you recognize that its not mere ignorance

so it cant be just a conspiracy

being racist because of social dogma =/= being racist because you are educated and actually understand the true complexity of race relations and purposely choose to subjugate a minority

dogma is usually perpetuated by ignorance

You are giving white people too much credit by thinking they all have a full understanding of the dynamics of racism.

Hell, not even all black people have a full understanding of the dynamics of racism, which is why you see young black men falling victim to the system. 

In the same way that the average citizen in nazi germany didn't really understand the full dynamics of genocide/racial supremacy/nazi politics even if the SS and high ranking members of government did.

You severely overestamate the average racist's intelligence

 

 This is particularly important since front stage discussions of racial issues are less and less candid, and avoiding the impression of racism is important for the maintenance of a positive self image under the system of contemporary racial ideology.

An additional frame not discussed in the above quotes, is what Bonilla-Silva calls the naturalization framework. When people naturalize racism, they see the current racial order as normal or natural. They may use comments such as “it’s just natural to want to be around your own kind.”

Your post further proves my point.

 

[cedric ceballos]

yeah since you know why I asked that question but to clarify it to you since you must know it all and I asked for your input


I wanted to see where he is from and see how much racism he has faced and to maybe see his points of view because living in California I can honestly say I have only delt with like two racist insidents.

I would love to call you what you are but do to the rules I will not and I won't waste the time in the pm.


So do me a favor and go make your assumptions to someone who cares what you think

Unless your post is being sarcastic as well and totally went over my head I was just joking with my post and your getting overly worked up here, but hey, people asked him where he lives or is from to try and understand his way of thinking, he can't answer that simple question for whatever reason.

 

[hand2handking]

so you compare the majority of american population to nazi germany to get ur point across 

and this is supposed to convince me that they are just blithely ignorant?

did u forget there was a thing called ww2 that made those german citizens very aware of what was going on?

and then you use naturalization as if its a point to your credit 

like do you not see how that same naturalization, the very essence of it, is what white people teach to their children?

its an active process

so if a child grows up thinking that way, im not going to say "oh well thats just how they were brought up"

when the very reason for that upbringing being directed that way is because of the importance of naturalization in white supremacy

 

[deleted]

Just for clarification, do you believe that every person with racist views is consciously villainous?

 

[gwap]

 
so you compare the majority of american population to nazi germany to get ur point across 

and this is supposed to convince me that they are just blithely ignorant?

did u forget there was a thing called ww2 that made those german citizens very aware of what was going on?

and then you use naturalization as if its a point to your credit 

like do you not see how that same naturalization, the very essence of it, is what white people teach to their children?

its an active process

so if a child grows up thinking that way, im not going to say "oh well thats just how they were brought up"

when the very reason for that upbringing being directed that way is because of the importance of naturalization in white supremacy

You keep reiterating the same thing... I already pointed out dogma..... that explains the passing of racist views.

Does that mean that they actually UNDERSTAND their views in the complete context of the dynamics of race relations? no

You seem to think each racist in america is actually knowledgeable on the historical implication and actual dynamics of racism and how it actually affects minority communities.

I compare this to the nazi germany citizens who didn't really understand the actual implications even thought they supported the actions... the ideas on supremacy pass on through dogma... the subjugation and racist views... 

You highlight a random sentence said by dennis leary.... I highlighted the actual analysis of racism by professor Eduardo Bonilla-Silva that you posted..... then you dismiss the statements that you posted just because I pointed out that it supports my position?

For racists to see the order as "natural" shows lack of understanding that it is not natural.... thus they are ignorant of the actual dynamics. The very idea that they naturalize it shows how ignorant they are. An intelligent racist would see it as unnatural, but would propagate it as a means to an end.

Please don't respond with "racism is passed down" again because i already addressed the dogma of racism 

i already addressed the dogma of racism 

i already addressed the dogma of racism 

i already addressed the dogma of racism 

i already addressed the dogma of racism 

I'm arguing the intelligence and knoweledge of the average racist

 

[hand2handking]

the intelligence and knowledge of the average racist is based on the social dogmas that have been created for them

so they are as intelligent and knowledgeable as they have been taught to be

understanding racial dynamics is not something i would expect a racist to do

there are racists all throughout society, white people would have you believe that its only "in the south" or some duck dynasty types dudes that are racist

when it actuality, its people like this 

racists are lawyers, doctors etc so i dont think that they are fundamentally not intelligent enough to recognize and perpetuate what is to their benefit

essentially saying that they dont understand because they dont know any better is just letting them off the hook

 

[deleted]

No one is saying that ignorance is an excuse for racism though.

 

[gwap]

 
the intelligence and knowledge of the average racist is based on the social dogmas that have been created for them

so they are as intelligent and knowledgeable as they have been taught to be

understanding racial dynamics is not something i would expect a racist to do

there are racists all throughout society, white people would have you believe that its only "in the south" or some duck dynasty types dudes that are racist

racists are lawyers, doctors etc so i dont think that they are fundamentally not intelligent enough to recognize and perpetuate what is to their benefit

essentially saying that they dont understand because they dont know any better is just letting them off the hook

so they are as intelligent and knowledgeable as they have been taught to be

Who teaches racists the full context of race relations and how the government/american society is actually at fault for many problems in the communties they are prejudiced against? Racists don't educate their children on these issue... so according to your own statement, they are ignorant due to not being taught.

understanding racial dynamics is not something i would expect a racist to do

Yup. so they are ignorant of the actual context of their own racism.

there are racists all throughout society, white people would have you believe that its only "in the south" or some duck dynasty types dudes that are racist

I have no idea what you are talking about now... who in here has said racists are only in the south? who are you addressing?

racists are lawyers, doctors etc so i dont think that they are fundamentally not intelligent enough to recognize and perpetuate what is to their benefit

Being educated on the study of a specific science doesnt guaruntee you any insight into the dynamics of race relations. Dogma is a strong component to racist belief.

essentially saying that they dont understand because they dont know any better is just letting them off the hook

off the hook?  What are you talking about? Is there a trial going on for racists? Are we trying to convict people for racism and then give out justice? Racists are as guilty/innocent as any other destructive group in the history of mankind. Knoweledgeable people indoctrinate... ignorant people follow... this is a common recipe in any situation. From government, to gangs, to ISIS and Al Qaeda... 

"letting them off the hook" means nothing to me... I'm trying to create a common understanding of the issue at hand to better see the future implications and possible long term resolution... You are internalizing this debate instead of addressing the information objectively.

 

[hand2handking]

No one is saying that ignorance is an excuse for racism though.

 
understanding racial dynamics is not something i would expect a racist to do

Yup. so they are ignorant of the actual context of their own racism.

 

[gwap]