- Feb 7, 2008
- 67,699
- 37,747
2011 NBA MVP Thread
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by CP1708,
- Start date
- Feb 7, 2008
- 67,699
- 37,747
- Nov 11, 2007
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- 26,983
Forget the fact that his 3pt percentage is actually respectable and a threat and he's made more this year than he did in his previous 2 combined.
He made 32 total threes in his first 2 years, so it wasn't that hard.
Also, his 3-point shooting is coming back down to Earth after his improbably decent start.
- Nov 11, 2007
- 18,286
- 26,983
Forget the fact that his 3pt percentage is actually respectable and a threat and he's made more this year than he did in his previous 2 combined.
He made 32 total threes in his first 2 years, so it wasn't that hard.
Also, his 3-point shooting is coming back down to Earth after his improbably decent start.
- Nov 18, 2010
- 4,201
- 141
Well said, Osh. And I see no one has adequately addressed the assertion that the primary reason the Bulls have excelled this year is because of their TOP ranked defense AND rebounding, two categories in which Derrick does not contribute relative to his team.
Also, the obvious fact remains that statistically, he has not performed well enough relative to other top candidates. Now of course someone is going to say stats don't tell the whole story. Well what are stats, exactly? It's a strong indicator of performance, isn't it? So how much weight do we assign to how well a player actually played, in a discussion about individual player achievement? Makes sense to give it the most consideration, no? So if every conclusive stat says he hasn't played at a relatively high enough level compared to others, what does that say? And don't give me that 25, 8, and 4 stuff. Those are just arbitrary bench marks; if he averaged 7.9 assists would he be having less of a season? No.
And for those referencing Nash winning in support of Rose, that makes no sense. Y'all are saying that mistakes should set the precedent? Foolishness.
Also, the obvious fact remains that statistically, he has not performed well enough relative to other top candidates. Now of course someone is going to say stats don't tell the whole story. Well what are stats, exactly? It's a strong indicator of performance, isn't it? So how much weight do we assign to how well a player actually played, in a discussion about individual player achievement? Makes sense to give it the most consideration, no? So if every conclusive stat says he hasn't played at a relatively high enough level compared to others, what does that say? And don't give me that 25, 8, and 4 stuff. Those are just arbitrary bench marks; if he averaged 7.9 assists would he be having less of a season? No.
And for those referencing Nash winning in support of Rose, that makes no sense. Y'all are saying that mistakes should set the precedent? Foolishness.
- Nov 18, 2010
- 4,201
- 141
Well said, Osh. And I see no one has adequately addressed the assertion that the primary reason the Bulls have excelled this year is because of their TOP ranked defense AND rebounding, two categories in which Derrick does not contribute relative to his team.
Also, the obvious fact remains that statistically, he has not performed well enough relative to other top candidates. Now of course someone is going to say stats don't tell the whole story. Well what are stats, exactly? It's a strong indicator of performance, isn't it? So how much weight do we assign to how well a player actually played, in a discussion about individual player achievement? Makes sense to give it the most consideration, no? So if every conclusive stat says he hasn't played at a relatively high enough level compared to others, what does that say? And don't give me that 25, 8, and 4 stuff. Those are just arbitrary bench marks; if he averaged 7.9 assists would he be having less of a season? No.
And for those referencing Nash winning in support of Rose, that makes no sense. Y'all are saying that mistakes should set the precedent? Foolishness.
Also, the obvious fact remains that statistically, he has not performed well enough relative to other top candidates. Now of course someone is going to say stats don't tell the whole story. Well what are stats, exactly? It's a strong indicator of performance, isn't it? So how much weight do we assign to how well a player actually played, in a discussion about individual player achievement? Makes sense to give it the most consideration, no? So if every conclusive stat says he hasn't played at a relatively high enough level compared to others, what does that say? And don't give me that 25, 8, and 4 stuff. Those are just arbitrary bench marks; if he averaged 7.9 assists would he be having less of a season? No.
And for those referencing Nash winning in support of Rose, that makes no sense. Y'all are saying that mistakes should set the precedent? Foolishness.
- Feb 21, 2005
- 11,980
- 18
Hedo turkoglu is truly awful, like horrific. I wish I had zo's twitter rants bout dude when he was in phoneix, straight comedy.
And dwight has a bunch of mediocre E point shooters around him is basically the argument for him having a cast. While Rose has had another all-star with him at all times. I wish the NBA just has a best player award cause people take the mos valuable part way too literal.
And dwight has a bunch of mediocre E point shooters around him is basically the argument for him having a cast. While Rose has had another all-star with him at all times. I wish the NBA just has a best player award cause people take the mos valuable part way too literal.
- Feb 21, 2005
- 11,980
- 18
Hedo turkoglu is truly awful, like horrific. I wish I had zo's twitter rants bout dude when he was in phoneix, straight comedy.
And dwight has a bunch of mediocre E point shooters around him is basically the argument for him having a cast. While Rose has had another all-star with him at all times. I wish the NBA just has a best player award cause people take the mos valuable part way too literal.
And dwight has a bunch of mediocre E point shooters around him is basically the argument for him having a cast. While Rose has had another all-star with him at all times. I wish the NBA just has a best player award cause people take the mos valuable part way too literal.
- Sep 22, 2009
- 5,261
- 11
Funny that around all-star time when we were saying Deng and Boozer should have been on the team, ya'll weren't having it.
Now that it's MVP team they've got your respect
Doesn't matter though, it's the kid's award now whether you agree or not
Now that it's MVP team they've got your respect
Doesn't matter though, it's the kid's award now whether you agree or not
- Sep 22, 2009
- 5,261
- 11
Funny that around all-star time when we were saying Deng and Boozer should have been on the team, ya'll weren't having it.
Now that it's MVP team they've got your respect
Doesn't matter though, it's the kid's award now whether you agree or not
Now that it's MVP team they've got your respect
Doesn't matter though, it's the kid's award now whether you agree or not
- Jun 24, 2005
- 17,400
- 3,840
Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
[h1]Should Kyle Lowry be part of the MVP discussion in 2011?
[/h1]Spoiler [+]
Okay, this is just silly. Derrick Rose is clearly one of the best players in the game. Afterall, Rose
In contrast, Lowry
- was the first player taken in the 2008 NBA draft
- was voted as a starter in the 2011 All-Star game
- scores 24.8 points per game, a mark that ranks 6[sup]th[/sup] in the NBA
- leads the Chicago Bulls – the team currently on top of the Eastern Conference standings – in Wins Produced
- stars in television commercials
Obviously Lowry can’t be compared to Rose.
- was the 24[sup]th[/sup] player taken in the 2006 NBA draft
- prior to this season, has only started 21 games in the NBA (and may have seen an All-Star game but certainly has never been asked to play)
- scores only 13.2 points per game, a mark that ranks 70[sup]th[/sup] in the NBA
Then again….
Let’s go back to that Wins Produced story. As noted, Rose leads the Chicago Bulls in Wins Produced. After 69 games, Rose has produced 9.8 wins. And his WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] is 0.184. So Rose is above average (average WP48 is 0.100).
Now let’s look at Lowry. After 71 games, Lowry has produced 8.1 wins. This mark leads the Houston Rockets. And his WP48 of 0.172 is actually quite comparable to what we see from Rose. In other words, if Lowry and Rose switched places, the fate of each team would be quite similar (and before you say the Bulls need Rose to take all those shots, take a look at what I wrote a few weeks ago at The Huffington Post).
Obviously Lowry doesn’t score as much as Rose. So what makes Lowry so productive?
Wins in the NBA are driven by a team’s ability to gain and keep possession of the ball (i.e. rebounds and turnovers) and how well the team can turn possession of the ball into points (i.e. shooting efficiency and the ability to get to the free thow line). When we look at Lowry’s stats – reported below — we see that his career numbers (these are the career numbers before the 2010-11 season) indicate Lowry was below average with respect to shooting efficiency from the field. But his ability to get to the free throw line and grab rebounds allowed Lowry to be above average.
This season, Lowry has been a more efficient scorer. He is also getting more assists while cutting down his turnovers. As a consequence, Lowry is now offering nearly as much are Rose.
And just like Rose – as the following indicates — Lowry is the most productive player on his team.
The Rockets’ record is 37-34 after 71 games, a mark that ranks last in the Southwest division and leaves this team currently on the outside of the top eight spots in the conference. When we look at efficiency differential (offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency), though, we see a mark of 1.7. This is consistent with a team that would win between 39 and 40 of their first 71 games; or about 45 wins across an entire season. And those marks would actually rank 8[sup]th[/sup] in the Western Conference. So the Rockets are not a “bad
- Jun 24, 2005
- 17,400
- 3,840
Originally Posted by nicedudewithnicedreams
[h1]Should Kyle Lowry be part of the MVP discussion in 2011?
[/h1]Spoiler [+]
Okay, this is just silly. Derrick Rose is clearly one of the best players in the game. Afterall, Rose
In contrast, Lowry
- was the first player taken in the 2008 NBA draft
- was voted as a starter in the 2011 All-Star game
- scores 24.8 points per game, a mark that ranks 6[sup]th[/sup] in the NBA
- leads the Chicago Bulls – the team currently on top of the Eastern Conference standings – in Wins Produced
- stars in television commercials
Obviously Lowry can’t be compared to Rose.
- was the 24[sup]th[/sup] player taken in the 2006 NBA draft
- prior to this season, has only started 21 games in the NBA (and may have seen an All-Star game but certainly has never been asked to play)
- scores only 13.2 points per game, a mark that ranks 70[sup]th[/sup] in the NBA
Then again….
Let’s go back to that Wins Produced story. As noted, Rose leads the Chicago Bulls in Wins Produced. After 69 games, Rose has produced 9.8 wins. And his WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] is 0.184. So Rose is above average (average WP48 is 0.100).
Now let’s look at Lowry. After 71 games, Lowry has produced 8.1 wins. This mark leads the Houston Rockets. And his WP48 of 0.172 is actually quite comparable to what we see from Rose. In other words, if Lowry and Rose switched places, the fate of each team would be quite similar (and before you say the Bulls need Rose to take all those shots, take a look at what I wrote a few weeks ago at The Huffington Post).
Obviously Lowry doesn’t score as much as Rose. So what makes Lowry so productive?
Wins in the NBA are driven by a team’s ability to gain and keep possession of the ball (i.e. rebounds and turnovers) and how well the team can turn possession of the ball into points (i.e. shooting efficiency and the ability to get to the free thow line). When we look at Lowry’s stats – reported below — we see that his career numbers (these are the career numbers before the 2010-11 season) indicate Lowry was below average with respect to shooting efficiency from the field. But his ability to get to the free throw line and grab rebounds allowed Lowry to be above average.
This season, Lowry has been a more efficient scorer. He is also getting more assists while cutting down his turnovers. As a consequence, Lowry is now offering nearly as much are Rose.
And just like Rose – as the following indicates — Lowry is the most productive player on his team.
The Rockets’ record is 37-34 after 71 games, a mark that ranks last in the Southwest division and leaves this team currently on the outside of the top eight spots in the conference. When we look at efficiency differential (offensive efficiency minus defensive efficiency), though, we see a mark of 1.7. This is consistent with a team that would win between 39 and 40 of their first 71 games; or about 45 wins across an entire season. And those marks would actually rank 8[sup]th[/sup] in the Western Conference. So the Rockets are not a “bad
- Aug 2, 2006
- 38,110
- 35,919
Also I forgot to ad, Dirk is +41 in crunch time, +41 is crazy, 50% shooting is like 7% higher than anyone else, if it's a clutchness argument Dirk wins every single time.
- Aug 2, 2006
- 38,110
- 35,919
Also I forgot to ad, Dirk is +41 in crunch time, +41 is crazy, 50% shooting is like 7% higher than anyone else, if it's a clutchness argument Dirk wins every single time.
- Dec 19, 2007
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Originally Posted by JPZx
http://oi54.tinypic.com/24qkcqu.jpg src="http://oi54.tinypic.com/24qkcqu.jpg">
- Dec 19, 2007
- 8,766
- 12
Originally Posted by JPZx
http://oi54.tinypic.com/24qkcqu.jpg src="http://oi54.tinypic.com/24qkcqu.jpg">
- Feb 6, 2011
- 8,332
- 216
- Feb 6, 2011
- 8,332
- 216
- Feb 9, 2009
- 9,626
- 787
I didn't have a problem with Nash winning MVP in 2006 and I don't have a problem with Rose winning it this year. Best player on the best team, I can live with that. Just the precedent the voters have set.
- Feb 9, 2009
- 9,626
- 787
I didn't have a problem with Nash winning MVP in 2006 and I don't have a problem with Rose winning it this year. Best player on the best team, I can live with that. Just the precedent the voters have set.
- Jun 29, 2004
- 597
- 10
The only MVP award that matters is the Finals MVP...
..and Kobe is taking that after we three-peat.
/Thread.
..and Kobe is taking that after we three-peat.
/Thread.
- Jun 29, 2004
- 597
- 10
The only MVP award that matters is the Finals MVP...
..and Kobe is taking that after we three-peat.
/Thread.
..and Kobe is taking that after we three-peat.
/Thread.
- Dec 20, 2007
- 517
- 10
Well luckily he's had at least one of them the entire season and he has 7 other quality nba players on his team.
Forget the fact that he's basically put this team on his back offensively this season especially in the clutch
Good for him, so have other players. Rose is shootoing 38% in crunch and averages 43 points per 48 minutes in crunch time and is +9, Dirk Nowitski is shooting 51% averages 45 points a game. Lebron also shoots 42%, averages 48 points a game, and is +15. Soooo....
Forget the fact that his 3pt percentage is actually respectable and a threat and he's made more this year than he did in his previous 2 combined.
So what, give him the MIP, what on earth does this have to do with the MVP, also average 3P% is 35% so why should I care that he want from being a terrible to below average 3 point shooter.
Forget the fact that his peers, those who play/coach against him the stars of the game have came out and said he's the leagues MVP.
Because we all know that players and coaches are the best talent evaluators.
Its just a narrative...
a poorly constructed narrative too.
- Dec 20, 2007
- 517
- 10
Well luckily he's had at least one of them the entire season and he has 7 other quality nba players on his team.
Forget the fact that he's basically put this team on his back offensively this season especially in the clutch
Good for him, so have other players. Rose is shootoing 38% in crunch and averages 43 points per 48 minutes in crunch time and is +9, Dirk Nowitski is shooting 51% averages 45 points a game. Lebron also shoots 42%, averages 48 points a game, and is +15. Soooo....
Forget the fact that his 3pt percentage is actually respectable and a threat and he's made more this year than he did in his previous 2 combined.
So what, give him the MIP, what on earth does this have to do with the MVP, also average 3P% is 35% so why should I care that he want from being a terrible to below average 3 point shooter.
Forget the fact that his peers, those who play/coach against him the stars of the game have came out and said he's the leagues MVP.
Because we all know that players and coaches are the best talent evaluators.
Its just a narrative...
a poorly constructed narrative too.
- Dec 2, 2009
- 6,393
- 85
It's rose and its not even close.
