according to this month's Car and Driver, da Chevy Camaro ZL1 >>>>> BMW M6

[ninjahood]

Yea of course, in rather have my car look good / feel good, big deal you can get somewhere 2 seconds faster than me

at how much gas you'll spend getting there

I love when gas is an argument when talking about cars in this price range. Got dudes being cheap about gas when talking about a $100k+ BMW

. If getting good MPG is high on your list what would you even be doing looking at cars like this.

My discussion/remark wasn't only towards BMW, in saying in general.

VW / Audi makes some

looking cars for a fraction of the price and goes only so slightly slower.

Euro > American

like what?

most euro cars cost MORE and offer less and go WAY slower.

what audi are you getting for 60K that comes standard with what let's say da GT500 and da ZL1 offerings?

 

[champcruthik]

Will never be as passionate about American "muscle" as some. I would personally roll with the M6 over the Camaro, nine out of ten times. It's kind of the way I feel about the Nissan GT-R. Best bang for your buck in terms of speed and performance, but I'm just not a major fan.

Speaking of BMW, still stuck on my preference for the E46 M3 over the newer E92 design.

 

[Bert.]

it is, very ugly. a ZL1 is a little bit better but not my cup of tea. im comparing the two cars mentioned.

Gotcha. I liked the Camaro in Transformers   but I've seen so many that the shock factor has worn off and it isn't that nice. The overall shape just looks off. Gimme a charger/chally over the camaro any day

dodge

 

[af1 1982]

I love that American cars still carry the stigma of "they handle like trash". Pull your head out of your *** and realize these aren't the same cars America was making back in the 60s. These muscle cars nowadays go fast in a straight line and around a corner. Look at numbers the ZL1 put down on the Nurburging compared to other European exotics. Cars double and triple its price range it beat around the ring at a fraction of the price.

Like I told Ninja before, you're using the wrong car for your argument. Use this instead:

I totally understand where your coming from. I just hate that Ford still kept the crap 4.6L for all those years. Yes it's a V8 but it's a poor excuse for one. 4.6L making only 315 hp

, pure junk.

I def feel you. It was also a disgrace that they took the 5.0 away from the GT. That's robbing a classic of it's heritage. But they have gotten their **** straight with this new motor. I need to look into it more. The fuel economy is outstanding. Do you have any idea how they get such great fuel economy 

american car manufacturers leave "room for improvement" hence why you think a car which so much displacement doesn't go even more faster or is MORE powerful.

they figure if da consumer wants to squeeze more power out of da engine that they room for you to do so, VS having a engine that has NO upside when it leaves da factory

because da cherry has been squeezed of all its juices.

there's a video on Hennessy performance that talks about that when describing da 700HP packages for LSX GM vehicles.

That is very true. But I'm talking about straight from the factory. A lot of people don't want to have to add mods unless they are taking it to the track. I feel like if you're gonna buy a V8, it should be squeezed of its juices (NH, no pun). That "room for improvement" is a disservice to their customers. Give them what they pay for

Shoot, I'm planning on slapping a STILLEN supercharger if I get the Z to bump it up to ~500HP. Any more than that and it's just dangerous imo if it's gonna double as a couple times a week driver

 

[sniper]

"The BMW is the better car by nearly every measure. Its structure feels far stiffer than the Camaro’s shell, immediately imparting a superior sense of driver control. Top up, the M6 provides a more serene experience, with great noise insulation and nary a ruffle from the fabric. The leather-wrapped everything inside the BMW feels at least four times richer than the ZL1’s interior trimmings."

C/D trolling again...

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Never in my life will I choose a Camaro over a BMW.

LOL


what looks better since you guys are into aesthetics?

if you think the BMW 6 series, M6 included looks good or better than your clearly on something or just a hater

You serious?

Like I said in another thread, Transformers was 5-years ago. The 'Camaro' ship has sailed with very little adjustments to their continuing line other than a new front fascia and hood-scoops. Even then, you have a 60K+ price-point with far more better options than a Camaro. (Same goes for the M6 at 115K+.) For such a bargain vehicle though, they weren't/aren't selling like 'hotcakes'. Considering the ZL1 had a production halt last year, the amount of back-orders was piss-poor further proving it's not about performance or best "bang for your buck". Call it what you want. Elitist, that domestic stigma, culture manipulation, etc. Regardless, at the end of the day, you still have a souped-up vehicle with very little appeal catering to only a small demographic...

Same reason why I'm satisfied with my entry-level 3-series. I can buy a cheaper vehicle and load it up with factory and/or aftermarket options outperforming my current turbo-setup. Will I, personally, be satisfied with it? Probably not. Hypothetically speaking, I'd rather have that 'slow' Maserati/Ferrari/Lamborghini in my driveway than that 1000-HP Chevy/Ford/etc...

Edit: And yes, 60s/70s American Muscle > Today's toys...

 

[milestailsprowe]

Gotta love that Camaro. It does everything right for the right price

 

[ninjahood]

"The BMW is the better car by nearly every measure. Its structure feels far stiffer than the Camaro’s shell, immediately imparting a superior sense of driver control. Top up, the M6 provides a more serene experience, with great noise insulation and nary a ruffle from the fabric. The leather-wrapped everything inside the BMW feels at least four times richer than the ZL1’s interior trimmings."

C/D trolling again...

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Never in my life will I choose a Camaro over a BMW.

LOL


what looks better since you guys are into aesthetics?

if you think the BMW 6 series, M6 included looks good or better than your clearly on something or just a hater

You serious?

Like I said in another thread, Transformers was 5-years ago. The 'Camaro' ship has sailed with very little adjustments to their continuing line other than a new front fascia and hood-scoops. Even then, you have a 60K+ price-point with far more better options than a Camaro. (Sames goes for the M6 at 115K+.) For such a bargain vehicle though, they weren't/aren't selling like 'hotcakes'. Considering the ZL1 had a production halt last year, the amount of back-orders was piss-poor further proving it's not about performance or best "bang for your buck". Call it what you want. Elitist, that domestic stigma, culture manipulation, etc. Regardless, at the end of the day, you still have a souped-up vehicle with very little appeal catering to only a small demographic...

Same reason why I'm satisfied with my entry-level 3-series. I can buy a cheaper vehicle and load it up with factory and/or aftermarket options outperforming my current turbo-setup. Will I, personally, be satisfied with it? Probably not. Hypothetically speaking, I'd rather have that 'slow' Maserati/Ferrari/Lamborghini in my driveway than that 1000-HP Chevy/Ford/etc...

Edit: And yes, 60s/70s American Muscle > Today's toys...

its just not true though.

[h1]Camaro, Challenger, Shelby: Old vs New Cars[/h1]
Hot-Rod Time Machine: Just How Good Were the Good Ol' Days?

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/...by_old_vs_new_cars/viewall.html#ixzz27LyXoRxq

modern muscle trumps da classics in every conceivable way.

 

[af1 1982]

its just not true though.

[h1]Camaro, Challenger, Shelby: Old vs New Cars[/h1]
Hot-Rod Time Machine: Just How Good Were the Good Ol' Days?

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/...by_old_vs_new_cars/viewall.html#ixzz27LyXoRxq

modern muscle trumps da classics in every conceivable way.

Of course they do. But you gotta take the time period into context. The technology we have now didn't exist back then.

And the muscle cars of the 60s/70s aren't so beloved because they were super fast. It's because they screamed youth and rebellion. When I think of a muscle car from that era, I think about driving around in Texas during a hot summer night with the windows down bumping the latest Zeppelin or Aerosmith record (ie Dazed and Confused). Or just riding around with the radio off and just listening to the engine with that carburetor. That is what cars are supposed to sound like, that is music too so many peoples ears.Muscle cars, rock and roll, drugs and alcohol. No other time period compares

When I think of today's muscle cars, I just think of old men driving them as their weekender. They lost that sense of youth and excitement. 

 

[mmg]

Today's youth and excitement is lowered euro cars gliding thru the night

 

[sniper]

^Haha! Cool. You gave me a link comparing length, weight and performance. Of course it does in terms of available performance. This is 2012. We should be advanced. I'm referring to the nostalgic aspect of it and the output of 'classics' in their respective era. That's like comparing today's rubber tires to the first wooden wheel. What's your point other than stating the obvious?

I'll go out on a limb to say your current domestics won't have the same appeal as their predecessors 40/50-years from now....

 

[marinadelrey]

ninja just likes to revolt. guess thats what happens when you aint got a pops in ya life

 

[ninjahood]

ninja just likes to revolt. guess thats what happens when you aint got a pops in ya life

da irony is MY POPS is da one that taught me "ALWAYS ask questions, NEVER take anything by face value, ALWAYS look for da better deal,

NEVER feel like you gotta go with da flow if your heart wit rockin wit it"

 

[ninjahood]

^Haha! Cool. You gave me a link comparing length, weight and performance. Of course it does in terms of available performance. This is 2012. We should be advanced. I'm referring to the nostalgic aspect of it and the output of 'classics' in their respective era. That's like comparing today's rubber tires to the first wooden wheel. What's your point other than stating the obvious?

I'll go out on a limb to say your current domestics won't have the same appeal as their predecessors 40/50-years from now....

if there's one thing that never goes outta style, its performance, so i'd take that bet in a heart beat.

 

[zapatohead408]

I seen a ZL1 the other day and was in awe. Such an amazing car. Someday I will have one.

The ZL1 is just a beast.

 

[PRIME]

:x soft tops

 

[sniper]

ninja just likes to revolt. guess thats what happens when you aint got a pops in ya life

da irony is MY POPS is da one that taught me "ALWAYS ask questions, NEVER take anything by face value, ALWAYS look for da better deal,

NEVER feel like you gotta go with da flow if your heart wit rockin wit it"

Did your dad teach you to negate key points that completely dismiss your arguments as well? Keep picking and choosing what to debate though. It looks nice...

^Haha! Cool. You gave me a link comparing length, weight and performance. Of course it does in terms of available performance. This is 2012. We should be advanced. I'm referring to the nostalgic aspect of it and the output of 'classics' in their respective era. That's like comparing today's rubber tires to the first wooden wheel. What's your point other than stating the obvious?

I'll go out on a limb to say your current domestics won't have the same appeal as their predecessors 40/50-years from now....

if there's one thing that never goes outta style, its performance, so i'd take that bet in a heart beat.

I'll gladly take you up on that as your current day performance statistics will be a mere afterthought in the following years to come. You're comparing performance to classics and a saturated body-style that you more or less are bias on. Like I said, the ZL1 caters to a very small demographic. Outside of performance, there's not much appeal anymore. To you and others, it may be a dream car as it's not an ugly vehicle (2010 World Car Design of the Year), but it certainly doesn't have that "it" factor that previous American muscle had. The lack of renowned or substantial awards speaks for itself. Have yet to see an engine award or anything relevant to deem it anything other than a fast, budget vehicle...

 

[ninjahood]

ninja just likes to revolt. guess thats what happens when you aint got a pops in ya life

da irony is MY POPS is da one that taught me "ALWAYS ask questions, NEVER take anything by face value, ALWAYS look for da better deal,

NEVER feel like you gotta go with da flow if your heart wit rockin wit it"

Did your dad teach you to negate key points that completely dismiss your arguments as well? Keep picking and choosing what to debate though. It looks nice...

^Haha! Cool. You gave me a link comparing length, weight and performance. Of course it does in terms of available performance. This is 2012. We should be advanced. I'm referring to the nostalgic aspect of it and the output of 'classics' in their respective era. That's like comparing today's rubber tires to the first wooden wheel. What's your point other than stating the obvious?

I'll go out on a limb to say your current domestics won't have the same appeal as their predecessors 40/50-years from now....

if there's one thing that never goes outta style, its performance, so i'd take that bet in a heart beat.

I'll gladly take you up on that as your current day performance statistics will be a mere afterthought in the following years to come. You're comparing performance to classics and a saturated body-style that you more or less are bias on. Like I said, the ZL1 caters to a very small demographic. Outside of performance, there's not much appeal anymore. To you and others, it may be a dream car as it's not an ugly vehicle (2010 World Car Design of the Year), but it certainly doesn't have that "it" factor that previous American muscle had. The lack of renowned or substantial awards speaks for itself. Have yet to see an engine award or anything relevant to deem it anything other than a fast, budget vehicle...

its a PUSHROD v8 engine...which da core of that tech is stoneage in car culture, da LS9 is da finest crate engine chevy has ever made and i dont think its won an award either...

does that negate its superior performance or budget appeal? no.

and FYI da whole 2012 fleet of camaro ZL1's sold out, they're had to start pumpin out da 13's model early to meet demand, and they aren't a limited car by any means..so you

got that "aint much appeal" assumption dead wrong.

high performance variants of any vehicle become collector cars, dont matter HOW saturated da body style is.

 

[csmith08]

goin with the camaro

 

[myjaysgetrocked]

Some of you just don't understand.....

BTW, gimmie the M6....

 

[jrdnsrnss]

Did your dad teach you to negate key points that completely dismiss your arguments as well? Keep picking and choosing what to debate though. It looks nice...
I'll gladly take you up on that as your current day performance statistics will be a mere afterthought in the following years to come. You're comparing performance to classics and a saturated body-style that you more or less are bias on. Like I said, the ZL1 caters to a very small demographic. Outside of performance, there's not much appeal anymore. To you and others, it may be a dream car as it's not an ugly vehicle (2010 World Car Design of the Year), but it certainly doesn't have that "it" factor that previous American muscle had. The lack of renowned or substantial awards speaks for itself. Have yet to see an engine award or anything relevant to deem it anything other than a fast, budget vehicle...

So because of the ZL1's lack of engine awards it makes it a crappy motor? Help me understand your logic here. Any high end car with lots of power will only appeal to a small demographic. You make it seem that the ZL1 is the only car that has a small market. I don't think too many people are looking to drop $115k on a convertible M6 so it appeals to an even smaller demographic than the ZL1. Any sports car upwards of $50k will only appeal to a small market. American sports cars i would say appeal to a bigger group of people due to their low price tags. People looking for performance can get a 650 horsepower Shelby for $60k.

 

[mangudai954]

From a performance standpoint both of these cars are beasts but I'd still rather cop a CTS-V. I love that thing.

 

[sniper]

ninja just likes to revolt. guess thats what happens when you aint got a pops in ya life

da irony is MY POPS is da one that taught me "ALWAYS ask questions, NEVER take anything by face value, ALWAYS look for da better deal,


NEVER feel like you gotta go with da flow if your heart wit rockin wit it"

Did your dad teach you to negate key points that completely dismiss your arguments as well? Keep picking and choosing what to debate though. It looks nice...

^Haha! Cool. You gave me a link comparing length, weight and performance. Of course it does in terms of available performance. This is 2012. We should be advanced. I'm referring to the nostalgic aspect of it and the output of 'classics' in their respective era. That's like comparing today's rubber tires to the first wooden wheel. What's your point other than stating the obvious?

I'll go out on a limb to say your current domestics won't have the same appeal as their predecessors 40/50-years from now....

if there's one thing that never goes outta style, its performance, so i'd take that bet in a heart beat.

I'll gladly take you up on that as your current day performance statistics will be a mere afterthought in the following years to come. You're comparing performance to classics and a saturated body-style that you more or less are bias on. Like I said, the ZL1 caters to a very small demographic. Outside of performance, there's not much appeal anymore. To you and others, it may be a dream car as it's not an ugly vehicle (2010 World Car Design of the Year), but it certainly doesn't have that "it" factor that previous American muscle had. The lack of renowned or substantial awards speaks for itself. Have yet to see an engine award or anything relevant to deem it anything other than a fast, budget vehicle...

its a PUSHROD v8 engine...which da core of that tech is stoneage in car culture, da LS9 is da finest crate engine chevy has ever made and i dont think its won an award either...

does that negate its superior performance or budget appeal? no.

and FYI da whole 2012 fleet of camaro ZL1's sold out, they're had to start pumpin out da 13's model early to meet demand, and they aren't a limited car by any means..so you

got that "aint much appeal" assumption dead wrong.

high performance variants of any vehicle become collector cars, dont matter HOW saturated da body style is.

Haha! Again, you're negating the nostalgia and era. Regardless, the engine you should be referencing is the LSA. (Not the LS9.) Also, it's not the finest. It's the most powerful. (Unless you think this is the peak of what their engineering team has to offer, then you'd have a case.) I can go on a tangent on what I think is the best Chevrolet engine, but that would fall on deaf ears. Regardless, you're comparing today's statistics over iconic, all-around vehicles. Arguably, there really is no comparison other than sharing the same name...

It hasn't won an award because there are far more better engines available. It just so happens that those vehicles come at a premium. So if you want an award for Budget Appeal, have at it. It's not like there are other automobiles out there that provide equal or better performance at a lesser price that are still outsold in their respective categories, right? Haha!

FYI, they didn't sell their whole 'fleet'. As mentioned, there was a long production halt on the vehicle and so with the little production they had, they were able to sell most of their units. Even then, my local Chevrolet dealership price-reduced a few of them. (i.e. Orders that were made, but then later retracted/cancelled.)

Also, your view of what collector's cars are or should be varies much more differently than mine and again, I'll still take you up on that bet...

Did your dad teach you to negate key points that completely dismiss your arguments as well? Keep picking and choosing what to debate though. It looks nice...
I'll gladly take you up on that as your current day performance statistics will be a mere afterthought in the following years to come. You're comparing performance to classics and a saturated body-style that you more or less are bias on. Like I said, the ZL1 caters to a very small demographic. Outside of performance, there's not much appeal anymore. To you and others, it may be a dream car as it's not an ugly vehicle (2010 World Car Design of the Year), but it certainly doesn't have that "it" factor that previous American muscle had. The lack of renowned or substantial awards speaks for itself. Have yet to see an engine award or anything relevant to deem it anything other than a fast, budget vehicle...

So because of the ZL1's lack of engine awards it makes it a crappy motor? Help me understand your logic here. Any high end car with lots of power will only appeal to a small demographic. You make it seem that the ZL1 is the only car that has a small market. I don't think too many people are looking to drop $115k on a convertible M6 so it appeals to an even smaller demographic than the ZL1. Any sports car upwards of $50k will only appeal to a small market. American sports cars i would say appeal to a bigger group of people due to their low price tags. People looking for performance can get a 650 horsepower Shelby for $60k.

Not a "crappy" motor, but more so a product of current time & technology. Essentially, updated tech and performance should be a given. It's nothing revolutionary as all makes & models are either in an overhaul or are taking steps in the right direction regarding their respective categories. Engine awards are comprised of many stipulations and the LSA falls under none of them. If Chevrolet/GM had an awards ceremony within their own company, I'd see your point. By no means should a vehicle be solely based on engine awards, but the LSA simply trumps a lot of other Chevrolet's/GM's previous products because they were in the red to begin with. For such a pristine engine, why isn't it much more touted as such? Is it under the radar or is it, as previously mentioned, a saturated body-style with an upgraded engine? Not hard to use Google and come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, this 'underrated' engine is still in a Camaro. I can go ham on a Miata, but it'll still be a Miata. Regardless, I make it seem that the ZL1 has a small market because it does. (And this is referencing the market that can actually afford the car. Not just talk about it.) American sports cars appeal to a bigger market here because of their low price tags, but then are trumped by cheaper or competitively priced imports because they offer much more and cater to each individual for other various reasons. Are more domestics selling now than compared to 5-years ago? Yes. Are they going to overcome their competitors? Unlikely. Also, the M6 appeals to a rather large market as BMW is a much more global brand. I actually had the privilege to go to their M Sales Awards event back in March because it was being held in Miami and they actually had record sales both globally and within the U.S...

Gotta' love people debating cars they'll more or less never own...

 

[swishasweets]

I have always hated how people post a good rebuttal but then end it with a snarky comment...

To Sniper...

Why are you arguing with people you'll probably never meet? Isn't that the same as arguing about something you will never own?

 

[sniper]

I have always hated how people post a good rebuttal but then end it with a snarky comment...

To Sniper...

Why are you arguing with people you'll probably never meet? Isn't that the same as arguing about something you will never own?

A snide remark in context, but it still doesn't make it any less true. It's not a knock on wealth, but rather on opinion as I'd say it's not a far stretch to say the amount of people backing the ZL1 in this thread most likely won't attain it for whatever reason(s)...

As for arguing with people I'll probably never meet, this is an online forum. (A virtual medium for exchanging views and ideas.) I have no problem with people debating things they'll most likely never actually be involved in, but I certainly can have my stance on the matter. I'm in no way a 'heavy-hitter' as a lot of other NTers are, but in my current situation, I can afford a ZL1. Do I want one? Not at all. Do I have realistic aspirations in owning a vehicle to the likes of an M6? Yes. That's why when most people are either sleeping or looking at porn when it's 4:30AM, I have my other laptop open and am working to make my business more profitable & efficient...