Classified U.S. Military video depicting slaying of Iraqis

[jgalan713]

If i'm not mistake a RPG can shoot down a helicopter?

This is biased because it paints the US as blood thirsty idiots.
what about all those suicide bomber who don't even have regard for their own people.
I met this army guy not to long ago who was bragging about how many people he killed and it digusted me.
but idk what hes witnessed, hes fellow soldier getting his brains blown out right next to him and have to wipe his brains off himself.
something like that would scar me for life..it would change my outlook on everything.
We are at WAR in a hostile country, you should expect the worst from any person there.

 

[kickhead23]

Im loving where this thread has gone and is going.. I will for the most part stay out of it because my opinions will not be liked on the subject apparently. However, dude clearly has an Ak walking down the street at 3:38..

 

[fenixconnexion.]

i didnt read thru all the pages but i just watched the shortened video and those dudes had AK's and what not. that's a threat... isnt it?

 

[dirtylicious]

I google'd it...the range of an RPG is 500 Meters (~550 yards or 1640 feet)
the distance that Apache looks well out of reach.

what about all those suicide bomber who don't even have regard for their own people.
irrelevant... we're talking about US Military actions here....what purpose does bringing that in serve other than deflect?

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by jgalan713

If i'm not mistake a RPG can shoot down a helicopter?

This is biased because it paints the US as blood thirsty idiots.
what about all those suicide bomber who don't even have regard for their own people.
I met this army guy not to long ago who was bragging about how many people he killed and it digusted me.
but idk what hes witnessed, hes fellow soldier getting his brains blown out right next to him and have to wipe his brains off himself.
something like that would scar me for life..it would change my outlook on everything.
We are at WAR in a hostile country, you should expect the worst from any person there.

Of course it's biased.  That is my entire point of biased propaganda to warp perception. I know tons of military folks.  One of my boys is a Navy Chaplain and when he came back from his 16 month deployment, he got a job with the corrections dept just so he can carry a piece on him 24/7.  He says he doesn't feel safe without carrying a firearm.  War changes people so yes expect nothing from the worst coming out of people put into position there. 

The military leaders that are retired lose??? The people who gave that order SHOULD be retired because they gave the order to fire on unarmed men and children without knowing the full depth of the situation. You know who wins in that respect? HUMANITY.

talking about HUMANITY behind a computer screen. 

Where is the humanity in this?

http://www.latimes.com/ne...010apr07,0,4334646.story
[h1]At least 42 killed as bombs rip through Shiite areas of Baghdad[/h1]

April 6, 2010 | 7:41 a.m.

That's what our troops are facing and videos like this is reality.  Split second decisions are made and mistakes happen on the battlefield.  So yes it's a L if the scapegoat in all this is to force CO's to retire.  Those military leaders probably have made decisions that have save countless lives but they will solely be judge on this one instance all because of the public backlash of this video.  Pathetic!

Bottom line Wikileaks just poured more fuel to the fire.

 

[dirtylicious]

Originally Posted by KickHead23

Im loving where this thread has gone and is going.. I will for the most part stay out of it because my opinions will not be liked on the subject apparently. However, dude clearly has an Ak walking down the street at 3:38..

http://www.armytimes.com/..._firefight_video_040510/

According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to finda group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be AK47s slungover their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

Amilitary investigation later concluded that what was thought to be anRPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the cameralooked like an AK47.

I dunno...as the crew of that Apache.....If you're THAT far away that you can't tell the difference between a Camera and an AK47  -- is there that much NEED for YOU to engage?

 

[renzo289]

i can understand the initial attack, granted its war, its kill or be killed...but how can ANY of you justify the shooting of the first responders in the van? no weapons, no hostility, they were just helping the only survivor! and u can hear the pilots practically begging to unload on em...then the whole "he shouldnt have brought his kids to a battle" quote did it for me...there's a difference between war and murder...this was CLEARLY murder...

 

[sundoobie]

The reaction to this video is misguided and overblown. Let me quote for you a key passage from David Finkel's book where he went into this incident in detail:

"All morning long, this part of Al-Amin had been the most hostile. While (Capt.) Tyler Andreson had been under a shade tree in west Al-Amin, and (Lt. Col.) Kauzlarich had dealt with occasional gunfire in the center part, east Al-Amin had been filled with gunfire and some explosions. There had been reports of sniper fire, rooftop chases, and rocket-propelled grenades being fired at Bravo Company, and as the fighting continued, it attracted the attention of Namir Noor-Eldeen, a twenty-two-year-old photographer for the Reuters news agency who lived in Baghdad, and Saeed Chmagh, forty, his driver and assisstant.

Some journalists covering the war did so by embedding with the U.S. military. Others worked independantly. Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were among those who worked independantly, which meant that the military didn't know they were in Al-Amin. The 2-16 didn't know, and neither did the crews of the Apaches, which were flying high above Al-Amin in a slow, counter-clockwise circle. From that height, the crews could see all of east Al-Amin, but the optics in the lead Apache were now focused tightly on Noor-Eldeen, who had a camera strung over his right shoulder and was centered in the crosshairs of the Apache's thrty-millemeter automatic cannon."


Let's add some more context to this video. It was taken in the July of 2007, during the heaviest fighting in the Iraq war at the height of the surge, in one of the most violent sections of the most violent city in Iraq; Baghdad. These Apache pilots weren't running around looking for innocents to kill because they wanted Iraqi blood; they were responding to reports of violence and insurgents in that area and stumbled upon a group of men with what looked like weapons. It is important to note that there actually were men amongst the group who were openly carrying AK-47s and RPGs; and I would challenge anyone sitting in comfort in front of their computer screen to be able to definitively state that they could tell that the journalist was carrying a camera instead of a weapon.

Now put yourself in a hot, loud seat in the gunners position on an Apache, circling above a hostile city that has had reports of groups of men launching attacks with AK-47s and RPGs all morning. They identified a threat, identified the men as possessing weapons, reported their findings to their superiors, requested permission to fire, and then engaged when they were given that permission. On any other given day during these soldiers deployment, the exact same actions led to the deaths of legitimate insurgents and terrorists.

Guess what Andrew? This is what happens when you support a war. War is not and will never be clean and sterile, or even make sense. Upstanding Apache pilots explicitly follow their R.O.E. and yet the story still ends in unspeakable tragedy. David Finkel's book deals with this incident in a far more mature and reasoned way than you and most of the media establishment seem to be capable of. He doesn't shy away from the ambiguity and crushing insanity of the random violence in Iraq that tears at the claims of  moral righteousness by both sides. Instead of getting incensed because we just discovered what war actually looks like, we should continue to channel our rage at the politicians who so were so cavalier with tossing our troops into these situations. Politicians who, conveniently, never had to serve in the combat and be exposed to these things.

 

[ag 47]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by daemacho

When the bullets started raining down. God bless America 

Wow.

Wow seriously?

And people wonder why the WORLD hates America.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Instead of getting incensed because we just discovered what war actually looks like, we should continue to channel our rage at the politicians who so were so cavalier with tossing our troops into these situations. Politicians who, conveniently, never had to serve in the combat and be exposed to these things.


Nice try. You could make the exact same claim about the Abu Gharib scandal and claim that those soldiers who committed those crimes weren't guilty but the politicians were for sending them there. They deserve their share of the blame, but sorry, the soldiers don't have a license to do whatever they want over there just so you can blame the politicians when they pull off something as outrageous as this.

But your politicians comment just made me realize how similar these murderer soldiers in the video were acting to the politicians and their rationale for entering the war, which was full of lies: Both were bogus "preemptive" actions and lame excuses just to kill some people.

Originally Posted by Chester the Cheetah

Originally Posted by daemacho

When the bullets started raining down. God bless America 

This dude must be the secret lovechild of Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter.

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Instead of getting incensed because we just discovered what war actually looks like, we should continue to channel our rage at the politicians who so were so cavalier with tossing our troops into these situations. Politicians who, conveniently, never had to serve in the combat and be exposed to these things.

Nice try. You could make the exact same claim about the Abu Gharib scandal and claim that those soldiers who committed those crimes weren't guilty but the politicians were for sending them there. They deserve their share of the blame, but sorry, the soldiers don't have a license to do whatever they want over there just so you can blame the politicians when they pull off something as outrageous as this.

But your politicians comment just made me realize how similar these murderer soldiers in the video were acting to the politicians and their rationale for entering the war, which was full of lies: Both were bogus "preemptive" actions and lame excuses just to kill some people.

Yes that is the whole point in this, isn't it?  Lets waste US Treasury and American lives just so our Nation can go kill some people. Simple as that.

And tell us after watching this video what are you going to do about it? 

Here's the website to contact your Congressional State Representative.  Do you care enough to send your Congressmen a letter?  I bet not.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Typical arm chair quarterbacks sitting behind computer screens who have no clue what the hell is going on.  Oh look a video is posted.  How disgusting.  How inhumane.  NEXT.  Hey Real World/Road Rules challenge is on tonight right?

 

[iansmk]

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

Originally Posted by KickHead23

Im loving where this thread has gone and is going.. I will for the most part stay out of it because my opinions will not be liked on the subject apparently. However, dude clearly has an Ak walking down the street at 3:38..

http://www.armytimes.com/..._firefight_video_040510/

According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to finda group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be AK47s slungover their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

Amilitary investigation later concluded that what was thought to be anRPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the cameralooked like an AK47.

I dunno...as the crew of that Apache.....If you're THAT far away that you can't tell the difference between a Camera and an AK47  -- is there that much NEED for YOU to engage?

the reverse situation is that they decided "HMMM, WELL THEY CLEARLY HAVE AK47s, BUT IM NOT POSITIVE THAT THEY ARE ALL INSURGENTS, AND IM NOT POSITIVE THATS AN RPG". so we send in ground troops and they get shot at, because we wanted to minimize collateral casualties? you act like they are fighting any more 'fair' than we are. when they are strapping bombs to people, fighting out of mosques, executing their own people, beheading captured soldiers/journalists etc...  you can argue about policies and why we are there, but the fact of the matter is we ARE there. were in this mess. we have to maintain an effective military presence while trying to minimize casualties on both sides, but bottom line is at the end of the day our focus is on minimizing US casualties, AS THEY SHOULD BE. Also to put this video more into context it was 2007, where an average of 21 Iraqis were dieing per day from suicide bomb/vehicle bomb attacks. 2007 was the height of the war when it comes to attacks and casualties.
this is WAR at the end of the day, as horrible as it looks when you see civilian casualties, is NOTHING compared to previous wars.  WW2 we would carpet bomb the %*+@ out of japan, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strate...r_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan

These strategic bombings killed more people than even the atomic bombs did. 

or how about Viet Nam? there has been an estimated 4 million people effected by dioxin poisons as an effect of our defoliation tactics of the jungle. (we would spray the jungle down to kill the plants and triple jungle canopy) and casualties for the vietnamese (overall north and south) estimate up to about 2 million from combat (not long term dioxin effects)

war SUCKS, but we are in one.  you can criticize our government for why were over there(which is 100% fine, we shouldn't be there), but our current military prowess allows us to handle things more with a surgical glove, and provide a level of protection for our ground forces. there will be casualties, but they pale in comparison to previous wars. im sorry but if your in a warzone and your standing next to people with AK47s then you might get blown up along with them. 

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by SunDOOBIE

The military leaders that are retired lose??? The people who gave that order SHOULD be retired because they gave the order to fire on unarmed men and children without knowing the full depth of the situation. You know who wins in that respect? HUMANITY.

talking about HUMANITY behind a computer screen. 

Where is the humanity in this?

http://www.latimes.com/ne...010apr07,0,4334646.story
[h1]At least 42 killed as bombs rip through Shiite areas of Baghdad[/h1]

April 6, 2010 | 7:41 a.m.

That's what our troops are facing and videos like this is reality.  Split second decisions are made and mistakes happen on the battlefield.  So yes it's a L if the scapegoat in all this is to force CO's to retire.  Those military leaders probably have made decisions that have save countless lives but they will solely be judge on this one instance all because of the public backlash of this video.  Pathetic!

Bottom line Wikileaks just poured more fuel to the fire.


I must have missed the joke because nothing was funny about that. You're just reaching to put a

smiley because you have nothing else of importance to say.

This was obviously not a split second decision seeing as the video went on for more than a half hour. If they were rushing in to a home and were being fired at it would be understandable if a civilian got hit, but would not be any less sad. This was indiscriminate fire on a group assumed to be insurgents who turned out to be civilians. And then the murder of more civilians trying to help a wounded man, not trying to pick up weapons as is clearly stated in the video.

While the commanding officers may have saved lives in the past, it is no doubt that they've also taken other innocent ones, so I say good riddance.

Yes that is the whole point in this, isn't it?  Lets waste US Treasury and American lives just so our Nation can go kill some people. Simple as that.

And tell us after watching this video what are you going to do about it? 

Here's the website to contact your Congressional State Representative.  Do you care enough to send your Congressmen a letter?  I bet not.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Typical arm chair quarterbacks sitting behind computer screens who have no clue what the hell is going on.  Oh look a video is posted.  How disgusting.  How inhumane.  NEXT.  Hey Real World/Road Rules challenge is on tonight right?

More reaching because you have nothing of relevance to say. Thanks for the link though, I will be sending in some form of a letter.


Also, many people feel that the casualties of this war "pale in comparison" to those in the past. Do you know why you think this? It's because all you hear about are the dead American soldiers. We aren't even keeping count of dead Iraqi civilians. Even if we were, we wouldn't report these numbers because they're enormous. You cannot compare this to World War II, that was worldwide, this is a military occupation of a nation. There is a huge difference.

Also to put this video more into context it was 2007, where an average of 21 Iraqis were dieing per day from suicide bomb/vehicle bomb attacks. 2007 was the height of the war when it comes to attacks and casualties.
Good to know, but did you know that before we invaded this type of thing NEVER EVEN HAPPENED in Iraq? We created this mess. We are responsible for every dead Iraqi, whether it be at the hands of our military or the insurgents our campaign allowed to run wild through the country.

 

[brokeballah]

Y'all should watch this movie called GREEN ZONE... It's out in theaters now starring matt damon and it totally depicts how f c k d up the US is.

 

[undermedicated]

They didn't shoot them for no reason, just cause the rpg cant reach them that means they should let them go? Since when did we start waiting for someone to shoot first during war?

I don't agree with the U.S being in the middle east but those are soldiers do you really think they teach them to just be blood thirsty for no reason. A lot of people have gotten in trouble for shooting civilians.

 

[sundoobie]

im sorry but if your in a warzone and your standing next to people with AK47s then you might get blown up along with them.
Exactly.  And just by looking at that video... there is a reason why the streets were empty.  Civilians usually clear of from the streets during a firefight.  That's why in that video the only visible people were these group of men. 

This ANTI-AMERICAN website Wikileaks doesn't tell you the situation prior to this video. They didn't bother to show on the video that this was in fact a coordinated raid by US/Iraqi battalions.  Didn't bother to alert the viewers that members of the press in Iraq are required to notify coalition forces of there whereabouts especially during a joint mission in the area. Didn't bother to tell the viewers that US forces were under attack and requested aerial reinforcements. 

Nope just show em raw footage of Cowboy Americans killing Iraqis.  Let's fuel the hatred. 

This was indiscriminate fire on a group assumed to be insurgents who turned out to be civilians. And then the murder of more civilians trying to help a wounded man, not trying to pick up weapons as is clearly stated in the video.
And you know all this HOW? Over a 30 minute video?  Are you kidding me? WOW

 

[kickhead23]

Was that link to get me to see where it said those were cameras and not Ak's because they are FOR SURE AK's

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by SunDOOBIE

This was indiscriminate fire on a group assumed to be insurgents who turned out to be civilians. And then the murder of more civilians trying to help a wounded man, not trying to pick up weapons as is clearly stated in the video.

And you know all this HOW? Over a 30 minute video?  Are you kidding me? WOW

Stop ignoring facts. 


[h1]Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

   [/h1]

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by KickHead23

Was that link to get me to see where it said those were cameras and not Ak's because they are FOR SURE AK's

They were carrying weapons.  Streets were emptied.  A battle was going on.

Here's the official report released by the Pentagon.

http://www2.centcom.mil/s...15-6%20Investigation.pdf

Stop ignoring facts.
Exactly.  Read the above report.  AK-47s were found.  RPGs were found. See page 13,  g. 0631:53 Z

And from that same article you posted...

The Pentagon report, reflecting the depth of paranoia about where Wikileaks is obtaining its material, speculates that the CIA may be responsible.

 

[riverxbear]

Its war nothing is Nice or pretty about it .

 

[mo matik]

I don't understand how many times I have to say it.

Everyone carries guns in Iraq. Just like everyone carries guns in Pakistan, in Afghanistan, and other less advanced parts of the Middle East.

It's a cultural thing. If you've ever been to these countries, you would know this. Seeing men walk around with AK-47s is routine.

The American military knows this. They have to. Indiscriminate attacks were and are taking place all over Iraq. People are killing each other, not just Americans vs. Iraqis.

The helicopters were called in because soldiers reported they were under attack.

Were these men shooting at anyone? Were they taking cover and offensive positions?

Shouldn't these factors be taken under consideration before blasting them away with 30mm calibur bullets?

 

[mo matik]

The official Pentagon report?  Really?  You just posted the report that was proven to be entirely bias for the sake of safeguarding the actions of the military?

People forget that Reuters has been trying to get this video for 3 whole years now. 

The official Pentagon investigation was initiated and was given to them, but the video was not.

Is this not enough to prove that there is a serious issue here?  I swear I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall.

 

[sundoobie]

^ During this operation Ilaaj in which the entire town closed their shops, schools, and markets and while a battle was going on between Insurgents and the Iraqi/US joint forces, a group of men carrying AK-47s and RPGs were just casually walking on the streets?  Everyone and their mothers in that city had enough common sense to know if you didn't want to die or be in a cross fire, you stayed inside. 

This is my last post because it's just getting ridiculous how naive some of you people are.  I have said enough. You all want to believe this Anti-American propaganda... its on YOU!

 

[baltimore]

Kill them insurgents!

 

[iansmk]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by SunDOOBIE

The military leaders that are retired lose??? The people who gave that order SHOULD be retired because they gave the order to fire on unarmed men and children without knowing the full depth of the situation. You know who wins in that respect? HUMANITY.

talking about HUMANITY behind a computer screen. 

Where is the humanity in this?

http://www.latimes.com/ne...010apr07,0,4334646.story
[h1]At least 42 killed as bombs rip through Shiite areas of Baghdad[/h1]

April 6, 2010 | 7:41 a.m.

That's what our troops are facing and videos like this is reality.  Split second decisions are made and mistakes happen on the battlefield.  So yes it's a L if the scapegoat in all this is to force CO's to retire.  Those military leaders probably have made decisions that have save countless lives but they will solely be judge on this one instance all because of the public backlash of this video.  Pathetic!

Bottom line Wikileaks just poured more fuel to the fire.


I must have missed the joke because nothing was funny about that. You're just reaching to put a

smiley because you have nothing else of importance to say.

This was obviously not a split second decision seeing as the video went on for more than a half hour. If they were rushing in to a home and were being fired at it would be understandable if a civilian got hit, but would not be any less sad. This was indiscriminate fire on a group assumed to be insurgents who turned out to be civilians. And then the murder of more civilians trying to help a wounded man, not trying to pick up weapons as is clearly stated in the video.

While the commanding officers may have saved lives in the past, it is no doubt that they've also taken other innocent ones, so I say good riddance.

Yes that is the whole point in this, isn't it?  Lets waste US Treasury and American lives just so our Nation can go kill some people. Simple as that.

And tell us after watching this video what are you going to do about it? 

Here's the website to contact your Congressional State Representative.  Do you care enough to send your Congressmen a letter?  I bet not.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Typical arm chair quarterbacks sitting behind computer screens who have no clue what the hell is going on.  Oh look a video is posted.  How disgusting.  How inhumane.  NEXT.  Hey Real World/Road Rules challenge is on tonight right?

More reaching because you have nothing of relevance to say. Thanks for the link though, I will be sending in some form of a letter.


Also, many people feel that the casualties of this war "pale in comparison" to those in the past. Do you know why you think this? It's because all you hear about are the dead American soldiers. We aren't even keeping count of dead Iraqi civilians. Even if we were, we wouldn't report these numbers because they're enormous. You cannot compare this to World War II, that was worldwide, this is a military occupation of a nation. There is a huge difference.

Also to put this video more into context it was 2007, where an average of 21 Iraqis were dieing per day from suicide bomb/vehicle bomb attacks. 2007 was the height of the war when it comes to attacks and casualties.
Good to know, but did you know that before we invaded this type of thing NEVER EVEN HAPPENED in Iraq? We created this mess. We are responsible for every dead Iraqi, whether it be at the hands of our military or the insurgents our campaign allowed to run wild through the country.




"you can argue about policies and why we are there, but the fact of the matter is we ARE there. were in this mess."




[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]everything you have said is under the presumption that we can just hit a button and stop the war. we cant do that(look at what happened after the Gulf War to the Kurds, the montagnards and south Viet Namese after the vietnam war). we are there. having said that (twice), our military is to engage insurgents. they saw people with AK47s and what they took to be other weapons. the apache's objective is to clear ground threats for our ground forces to move in.  there were casualties. it happens. but in this instance we weren't in the wrong and the Apache Gunship from afar is a huge improvement to how we would handle a similar situation in prior wars.  [/font]
[h1]Documented Iraqi civilian deaths from violence to date: 95,786 – 104,492[/h1]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]i like the generalizations you use. "YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT IRAQI DEATHS". there it is, right there. if you wanna hear more about it you can go here[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and i didnt compare it to WW2 overall, i was comparing it to our bombing campaign with Japan... which i clearly stated... and linked to.............. 

[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]

Carpet bombing was used extensively against Japanese civilian population centers, such as Tokyo.[sup][5][/sup][sup][6][/sup] On March 9 and 10 1945, B-29 Superfortresses were directed to bomb the most heavily populated civilian sectors of Tokyo. In just 2 days of bombing, over 100,000 men, women, and children burned to death from a heavy bombardment of incendiary bombs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing

in 2 days we killed more civilians than the entire iraqi war. and thats only Tokyo, we did that to several other japanese cities as well.  Nowadays we have the technology to be A LOT more precise, but then we have misinformed people, like yourself, that are going to cry about civilians standing next to guys with ak47s.  i wont be replying to anymore misinformed nonsense.  the war sucks, i dont disagree there. but to get your panties in a twist over this video is ridiculous.