delete

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by sosmoove

When I come into these threads, I haven't seen one OP actually ask a preacher or ANY leader of a church any of these questions. Are you scared to question them to their faces and would rather come to a sneaker sight to seek answers? If you want to debate and come up with these philosophical questions about religion and life, go ask a religious leader and come back and tell us what you asked and the answers you got. Why not? Who else would have more knowledge about these subjects?

One would expect people that subscribe to a certain religion to understand the beliefs that they are subscribing to. As if being a religious leader somehow allows you to understand god or the intentions of the authors anymore than anyone else.

 

[kramer]

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is praying continually for us. Suicide is just another sin. If you believe in Jesus, I believe you will go to Heaven even if you commit suicide.

 

[kramer]

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is praying continually for us. Suicide is just another sin. If you believe in Jesus, I believe you will go to Heaven even if you commit suicide.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by NobleKane

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by So Nyuh Shi Dae

It would seem that there are two possible explanations for why man is the way he is if god is responsible for man's creation. The first possibility is that god simply created man to be imperfect. When god created Adam and Eve, he knew they would disobey him. This suggests that god created so that they would disobey him. God knew an infinite amount of ways he could create Adam and Eve and chose to create them such that they disobeyed god and introduced sin into the world. The second possibility is that god is a faulty designer and failed at creating Adam and Eve as perfect beings. If god is a faulty designer then he can't be god. He doesn't have the attribute of omnipotence. So, the biblical god is either incompetent or sadistic.

Another insightful response

its only insightful when its attacking religion. RIGHT.

 you and other people trying to use suicide to attack religion is just as sad as extreme religious freaks are trying to say every homosexual is going to hell.

me, my brother, and two of my cousins have been through depression, suicide attempts, hearing voices, mental institutions, etc. and i am telling you right now MAN THE %!$+ UP. seeing so many friends die from the hands of another man or because of car accidents.....i knew what time it was and knew i wasnt gonna take life for granted like ignorant pricks like you do spending all your time on a SHOE message board bashing a god you say doesnt even exist...

nobody is making anybody kill themselves unless they want to. deal with it.

atheists kill me. Spend all this time tryna say there is no god and then wanna blame everything on god... cant have your cake and eat it too

for every guy blaming "god" for suicide theres another man saying god saved them from suicide..... whatever works for someone let it work for them. Quit trying to belittle religious people. Its really none of your business what the next man believes in or not.

For you to use the subject of suicide for your next soapbox against religion is flat out PATHETIC. 

After all these events transpired, my buddy was diagnosed with clinical schizophrenia.
  

then why are you blaming a god you dont even think exist for your friend's condition???
As an atheist, wondering where god was during all these terrible events doesn't mean I somehow believe in his existence. It's a rhetorical question meant to provoke thought amongst those who do believe in him. I already know the answer. The answer is he doesn't exist. He didn't cause my friend's condition. He sure as hell wasn't there to save him.
The reason I, and others, have poised these questions is to point out the flaws in the bible and in the belief in a god. There have been so many tragic things that have happened yet, if there really is a god like you guys claim that sees all and is everywhere at all times who happens to love us, WHY does he allow these things to happen? If someone goes through a hard time and gets through it and attributes it to god... WHY didn't god help someone else going through the same hardships? and like others have asked, what about people that were never cursed with the knowledge of god? What if someone grew up on an island or in some rainforest with zero knowledge of god? Do they still get blessed with eternal damnation? 

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by NobleKane

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by So Nyuh Shi Dae

It would seem that there are two possible explanations for why man is the way he is if god is responsible for man's creation. The first possibility is that god simply created man to be imperfect. When god created Adam and Eve, he knew they would disobey him. This suggests that god created so that they would disobey him. God knew an infinite amount of ways he could create Adam and Eve and chose to create them such that they disobeyed god and introduced sin into the world. The second possibility is that god is a faulty designer and failed at creating Adam and Eve as perfect beings. If god is a faulty designer then he can't be god. He doesn't have the attribute of omnipotence. So, the biblical god is either incompetent or sadistic.

Another insightful response

its only insightful when its attacking religion. RIGHT.

 you and other people trying to use suicide to attack religion is just as sad as extreme religious freaks are trying to say every homosexual is going to hell.

me, my brother, and two of my cousins have been through depression, suicide attempts, hearing voices, mental institutions, etc. and i am telling you right now MAN THE %!$+ UP. seeing so many friends die from the hands of another man or because of car accidents.....i knew what time it was and knew i wasnt gonna take life for granted like ignorant pricks like you do spending all your time on a SHOE message board bashing a god you say doesnt even exist...

nobody is making anybody kill themselves unless they want to. deal with it.

atheists kill me. Spend all this time tryna say there is no god and then wanna blame everything on god... cant have your cake and eat it too

for every guy blaming "god" for suicide theres another man saying god saved them from suicide..... whatever works for someone let it work for them. Quit trying to belittle religious people. Its really none of your business what the next man believes in or not.

For you to use the subject of suicide for your next soapbox against religion is flat out PATHETIC. 

After all these events transpired, my buddy was diagnosed with clinical schizophrenia.
  

then why are you blaming a god you dont even think exist for your friend's condition???
As an atheist, wondering where god was during all these terrible events doesn't mean I somehow believe in his existence. It's a rhetorical question meant to provoke thought amongst those who do believe in him. I already know the answer. The answer is he doesn't exist. He didn't cause my friend's condition. He sure as hell wasn't there to save him.
The reason I, and others, have poised these questions is to point out the flaws in the bible and in the belief in a god. There have been so many tragic things that have happened yet, if there really is a god like you guys claim that sees all and is everywhere at all times who happens to love us, WHY does he allow these things to happen? If someone goes through a hard time and gets through it and attributes it to god... WHY didn't god help someone else going through the same hardships? and like others have asked, what about people that were never cursed with the knowledge of god? What if someone grew up on an island or in some rainforest with zero knowledge of god? Do they still get blessed with eternal damnation? 

 

[bdubnyckid]

Originally Posted by Kramer

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is praying continually for us. Suicide is just another sin. If you believe in Jesus, I believe you will go to Heaven even if you commit suicide.

 

[bdubnyckid]

Originally Posted by Kramer

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is praying continually for us. Suicide is just another sin. If you believe in Jesus, I believe you will go to Heaven even if you commit suicide.

 

[JAYxSF415]

-

 

[JAYxSF415]

-

 

[scshift]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Um lol.........I never said suicide had anything to do with God. That would make me an absolute moron wouldn't it? I do however blame God for the awful things he did in the bible.-mass murder, rape, infanticide etc. You know creating people with flaws, and then punishing them for said flaws. Sounds like a *$$hole to me

I'm not going to front, we are all flawed. But no one said we were being punished for it. If by punished you mean things like disease, natural disasters, sure, you could say they are created by god. I strongly doubt this, I believe they are forces of this Earth and nature. A disease is another creation... I'm guessing it was used to keep humans in check. Like I stated in my previous post, what makes you think we as humans were supposed to be created as immortal, indestructible beings?

The way the world was created, no single species can dominate. Humans can come close, but our selfishness and greed prevents that. Along with predator animals and disease.

I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories, but here's my take on Adam and Eve. They were created in God's image, to be perfect human beings. With that, God gave them another amazing gift: the ability to think freely and act as they chose. Sure, he could have created them to be flawless and obedient. But then wouldn't that have been like creating a slave? They messed up and ate the apple, and as a result were punished. They weren't created to eat the apple, they were created then ate the apple by themselves, when God told them not to. So they disobeyed him and he punished them.

Can you name anyone else (in your life) who has been punished by God?

 

[scshift]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Um lol.........I never said suicide had anything to do with God. That would make me an absolute moron wouldn't it? I do however blame God for the awful things he did in the bible.-mass murder, rape, infanticide etc. You know creating people with flaws, and then punishing them for said flaws. Sounds like a *$$hole to me

I'm not going to front, we are all flawed. But no one said we were being punished for it. If by punished you mean things like disease, natural disasters, sure, you could say they are created by god. I strongly doubt this, I believe they are forces of this Earth and nature. A disease is another creation... I'm guessing it was used to keep humans in check. Like I stated in my previous post, what makes you think we as humans were supposed to be created as immortal, indestructible beings?

The way the world was created, no single species can dominate. Humans can come close, but our selfishness and greed prevents that. Along with predator animals and disease.

I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories, but here's my take on Adam and Eve. They were created in God's image, to be perfect human beings. With that, God gave them another amazing gift: the ability to think freely and act as they chose. Sure, he could have created them to be flawless and obedient. But then wouldn't that have been like creating a slave? They messed up and ate the apple, and as a result were punished. They weren't created to eat the apple, they were created then ate the apple by themselves, when God told them not to. So they disobeyed him and he punished them.

Can you name anyone else (in your life) who has been punished by God?

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by scshift

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Um lol.........I never said suicide had anything to do with God. That would make me an absolute moron wouldn't it? I do however blame God for the awful things he did in the bible.-mass murder, rape, infanticide etc. You know creating people with flaws, and then punishing them for said flaws. Sounds like a *$$hole to me

I'm not going to front, we are all flawed. But no one said we were being punished for it. If by punished you mean things like disease, natural disasters, sure, you could say they are created by god. I strongly doubt this, I believe they are forces of this Earth and nature. A disease is another creation... I'm guessing it was used to keep humans in check. Like I stated in my previous post, what makes you think we as humans were supposed to be created as immortal, indestructible beings?

The way the world was created, no single species can dominate. Humans can come close, but our selfishness and greed prevents that. Along with predator animals and disease.

I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories, but here's my take on Adam and Eve. They were created in God's image, to be perfect human beings. With that, God gave them another amazing gift: the ability to think freely and act as they chose. Sure, he could have created them to be flawless and obedient. But then wouldn't that have been like creating a slave? They messed up and ate the apple, and as a result were punished. They weren't created to eat the apple, they were created then ate the apple by themselves, when God told them not to. So they disobeyed him and he punished them.

Can you name anyone else (in your life) who has been punished by God?

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by scshift

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Um lol.........I never said suicide had anything to do with God. That would make me an absolute moron wouldn't it? I do however blame God for the awful things he did in the bible.-mass murder, rape, infanticide etc. You know creating people with flaws, and then punishing them for said flaws. Sounds like a *$$hole to me

I'm not going to front, we are all flawed. But no one said we were being punished for it. If by punished you mean things like disease, natural disasters, sure, you could say they are created by god. I strongly doubt this, I believe they are forces of this Earth and nature. A disease is another creation... I'm guessing it was used to keep humans in check. Like I stated in my previous post, what makes you think we as humans were supposed to be created as immortal, indestructible beings?

The way the world was created, no single species can dominate. Humans can come close, but our selfishness and greed prevents that. Along with predator animals and disease.

I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories, but here's my take on Adam and Eve. They were created in God's image, to be perfect human beings. With that, God gave them another amazing gift: the ability to think freely and act as they chose. Sure, he could have created them to be flawless and obedient. But then wouldn't that have been like creating a slave? They messed up and ate the apple, and as a result were punished. They weren't created to eat the apple, they were created then ate the apple by themselves, when God told them not to. So they disobeyed him and he punished them.

Can you name anyone else (in your life) who has been punished by God?

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

 

[scshift]

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

Hold up. Don't start saying "your" bible like you know about my religious beliefs.

Never have I said I was Christian. Just because I believe in God does not mean automatically I am verifying the Bible as fact. Why do you think I said "I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories"? Everything I said in this thread has been my own personal beliefs. Don't tie it to any religion you know of in this world because I am not affiliated with any one of them like that.

I believe the world was created, with all of it's good, and bad, on purpose. I guess that means that the diseases, disasters and all the bad things were created by God. But you have to stop thinking about this from a human's perspective and think from a creator's point of view. Yes, he had to have known that creating cancer would have killed many humans. So would have creating lions, tigers, sharks any anything dangerous to humans. We were created, any look how dangerous we are? When you think about it, it's not that those diseases were placed there to be evil or anything. I agree with you: why would a God decide to go out of his way to create something that was dangerous to his creation? No, it was there because it, like all of the other animals and plants and elements to exist in nature. What's bad to us isn't necessarily "evil" or bad to the world.

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

 

[scshift]

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

Hold up. Don't start saying "your" bible like you know about my religious beliefs.

Never have I said I was Christian. Just because I believe in God does not mean automatically I am verifying the Bible as fact. Why do you think I said "I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories"? Everything I said in this thread has been my own personal beliefs. Don't tie it to any religion you know of in this world because I am not affiliated with any one of them like that.

I believe the world was created, with all of it's good, and bad, on purpose. I guess that means that the diseases, disasters and all the bad things were created by God. But you have to stop thinking about this from a human's perspective and think from a creator's point of view. Yes, he had to have known that creating cancer would have killed many humans. So would have creating lions, tigers, sharks any anything dangerous to humans. We were created, any look how dangerous we are? When you think about it, it's not that those diseases were placed there to be evil or anything. I agree with you: why would a God decide to go out of his way to create something that was dangerous to his creation? No, it was there because it, like all of the other animals and plants and elements to exist in nature. What's bad to us isn't necessarily "evil" or bad to the world.

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by scshift

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

I'm just responding for the sake of conversation. I bolded the key point that you made. God must have created them to sin and, therefore, to punish them. God, being infinite in knowledge and power, knows every possibility to every scenario. He knew that if he created Adam and Eve the way he did, it would result in the sin that he supposedly hates. Additionally, the serpent was Satan, a fallen angel that god created. Again, when god created Satan (or Lucifer), he knew that sin would result. If god hates sin so much, I don't understand why he constantly set himself up to be around sin. If he loves us so much, why did he subject us to sin? We are all guilty of sin because of Adam and Eve. That doesn't sound very fair.

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by scshift

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

I'm just responding for the sake of conversation. I bolded the key point that you made. God must have created them to sin and, therefore, to punish them. God, being infinite in knowledge and power, knows every possibility to every scenario. He knew that if he created Adam and Eve the way he did, it would result in the sin that he supposedly hates. Additionally, the serpent was Satan, a fallen angel that god created. Again, when god created Satan (or Lucifer), he knew that sin would result. If god hates sin so much, I don't understand why he constantly set himself up to be around sin. If he loves us so much, why did he subject us to sin? We are all guilty of sin because of Adam and Eve. That doesn't sound very fair.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by scshift

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

Hold up. Don't start saying "your" bible like you know about my religious beliefs.

Never have I said I was Christian. Just because I believe in God does not mean automatically I am verifying the Bible as fact. Why do you think I said "I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories"? Everything I said in this thread has been my own personal beliefs. Don't tie it to any religion you know of in this world because I am not affiliated with any one of them like that.

I believe the world was created, with all of it's good, and bad, on purpose. I guess that means that the diseases, disasters and all the bad things were created by God. But you have to stop thinking about this from a human's perspective and think from a creator's point of view. Yes, he had to have known that creating cancer would have killed many humans. So would have creating lions, tigers, sharks any anything dangerous to humans. We were created, any look how dangerous we are? When you think about it, it's not that those diseases were placed there to be evil or anything. I agree with you: why would a God decide to go out of his way to create something that was dangerous to his creation? No, it was there because it, like all of the other animals and plants and elements to exist in nature. What's bad to us isn't necessarily "evil" or bad to the world.

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

You'd be absolutely right if you didn't believe in a god. I am in complete agreement with you that those things AREN'T evil or bad. Natural disasters, diseases, predators, etc. are natural. It's only when you introduce an omnipresent, omniscient, and all-powerful god that there's a problem. If we're to believe that WE as humans are somehow more significant than ants or blades of grass and that there's a god out there looking out for us, then there's a problem. That's when one has to question WHY these things are happening.

Atheists believe that these things just happen. That there's a rational reason why all those things happen. Japan wasn't struck by a devastating earthquake and tsunami because of their past crimes against the US like some televangelists might have you believe. Gays aren't stricken with HIV and AIDS because of their "sin". People don't commit suicide because they can't "man up". If you believe in a god, especially one that knows all, sees all, and is all powerful, why does he not put an end to the misery that is plaguing his people? Can he not? or does he choose not to? Either one means that this god is terrible and not worth believing in.

I was a Christian for over half of my life. I know the bible reasonably well. I can explain the serpent. God created everything including the angels. Lucifer was one of these angels. He plotted an uprising against god and was cast out of heaven along with all the other angels that followed him. They went to a place called hell. For some reason, god still gave Lucifer, now Satan, power. Satan takes the form of a serpent and tricks Eve into eating the fruit, thus damning mankind forever. The snake also has to crawl on its belly from that point on (whats up with that? I thought it was satan? Why do snakes get screwed over?) 

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by scshift

Originally Posted by Boys Noize

According to your bible, God created everything in this universe; the good and the bad. Yes, that includes diseases and natural disasters. So no, you can't just attribute all the good things that happen in life to god as being a blessing from him and then dismiss all the bad as some kind of worldly force somehow unassociated with god.
And about the Adam and Eve tale, if god created man in his image with free will, a human construct, don't you think he would have thought of what free will entailed? He is all knowing right? If that's true then he MUST have known that free will would have enabled Adam and Eve to disobey him. If he knew that was a possibility but DIDN'T want us to do that why did he leave that to chance? and decide to punish mankind off the chance he allowed?

Again, if you DO believe in the creation story and that god DID give us free will then you must also believe that your god is either flawed or sadistic in nature.

Hold up. Don't start saying "your" bible like you know about my religious beliefs.

Never have I said I was Christian. Just because I believe in God does not mean automatically I am verifying the Bible as fact. Why do you think I said "I don't believe too much into all of the Bible stories"? Everything I said in this thread has been my own personal beliefs. Don't tie it to any religion you know of in this world because I am not affiliated with any one of them like that.

I believe the world was created, with all of it's good, and bad, on purpose. I guess that means that the diseases, disasters and all the bad things were created by God. But you have to stop thinking about this from a human's perspective and think from a creator's point of view. Yes, he had to have known that creating cancer would have killed many humans. So would have creating lions, tigers, sharks any anything dangerous to humans. We were created, any look how dangerous we are? When you think about it, it's not that those diseases were placed there to be evil or anything. I agree with you: why would a God decide to go out of his way to create something that was dangerous to his creation? No, it was there because it, like all of the other animals and plants and elements to exist in nature. What's bad to us isn't necessarily "evil" or bad to the world.

I'll admit: I did not think about the all-knowing part and how that pertained to Adam and Eve. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes, the fruit was there to test them, and yes, he created them knowing they would eat the fruit. So I guess you could say he created them to punish them. Who created the serpent? That is where this all gets blurry and even I have no answer. Who created the serpent, who created the devil? I have no clue, and I won't try and offer some BS reason as to who did.

But regardless, the serpent tempted Adam and Eve. I don't know if God created the serpent. Maybe the serpent was the devil in disguise. But their punishment, was it really a punishment? The two of them became the forerunners of the human species... I was responding to AntonLaVey because he said that he punished people for their flaws. And I wasn't too sure what he meant. I thought he meant diseases and murder and disasters were the punishment. No, those are a result of humans/nature, which is a result of God. Indirectly, yeah you could say it was his fault. But if I gave you a stack of cash and you went and bought a gun to shoot someone with it, is it my fault?

You'd be absolutely right if you didn't believe in a god. I am in complete agreement with you that those things AREN'T evil or bad. Natural disasters, diseases, predators, etc. are natural. It's only when you introduce an omnipresent, omniscient, and all-powerful god that there's a problem. If we're to believe that WE as humans are somehow more significant than ants or blades of grass and that there's a god out there looking out for us, then there's a problem. That's when one has to question WHY these things are happening.

Atheists believe that these things just happen. That there's a rational reason why all those things happen. Japan wasn't struck by a devastating earthquake and tsunami because of their past crimes against the US like some televangelists might have you believe. Gays aren't stricken with HIV and AIDS because of their "sin". People don't commit suicide because they can't "man up". If you believe in a god, especially one that knows all, sees all, and is all powerful, why does he not put an end to the misery that is plaguing his people? Can he not? or does he choose not to? Either one means that this god is terrible and not worth believing in.

I was a Christian for over half of my life. I know the bible reasonably well. I can explain the serpent. God created everything including the angels. Lucifer was one of these angels. He plotted an uprising against god and was cast out of heaven along with all the other angels that followed him. They went to a place called hell. For some reason, god still gave Lucifer, now Satan, power. Satan takes the form of a serpent and tricks Eve into eating the fruit, thus damning mankind forever. The snake also has to crawl on its belly from that point on (whats up with that? I thought it was satan? Why do snakes get screwed over?) 

 

[ohdannyboy]

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

 

[ohdannyboy]

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

Wait, so god ISN'T omniscient?

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

Wait, so god ISN'T omniscient?

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

If we're talking about the biblical god, then god knows exactly what we will do before we even exist.

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by ohdannyboy

Originally Posted by spacerace

Quick questions.
Why did God create the devil?

How does man have free will even though God knows what we will do before we do it?

The devil is a fallen angel...
God doesn't know what you will do. The bible has no mention of predestination.

If we're talking about the biblical god, then god knows exactly what we will do before we even exist.