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why are people making a big deal out of Scottie Pippen getting votes? He WAS the point guard for the Bulls during their 6 championship seasons and initiatedthe offense. So he definitely deserved votes.
ESPN TOP 10 point guards of all time
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by bigmike23,
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Nash is a FABULOUS shooter, he's probably a top 10 best guards in terms of shooting all-time, maybe 5.
There's only one guy on that list who I'd put over Nash as far as shooting (Stockton).
I'm glad to see some posters giving Stock some love.
There's only one guy on that list who I'd put over Nash as far as shooting (Stockton).
I'm glad to see some posters giving Stock some love.
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In an offense that 1-3 featured TWO shooting guards and ONE small forward (Pippen), how "WAS" he a point guard?
xtapolapacetl
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Despite being 6'8, Pip led the Bulls in assists all 6 of their championship seasons. He was a point guard in his game, if not in name. He isn'treferred to as a point guard, but a lot of time he is referred to as a "point forward". Even though he was a small forward on paper, he ran the Bullsoffense in their two three-peats.
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Originally Posted by Do Be Doo
Originally Posted by The Game is a Foot
Originally Posted by JD617
What's so funny? Seriously, putting the career wins and his internet stuff to the side, Marbury is one of the best point guards of all-time.
I only have a couple of beefs with this list...
1) Wasn't Big O a shooting guard??
2) If Big O makes the list, then how come Iverson doesn't?
3) Excluding the Big O, the order should have been Magic > John Stockton > Isiah Thomas> Walt Frazier> Jason Kidd = Gary Payton > Tiny Archibald > Bob Cousy
4) Point Guards that were all better than Steve Nash:
xtapolapacetl
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What's so funny? Seriously, putting the career wins and his internet stuff to the side, Marbury is one of the best point guards of all-time.
I only have a couple of beefs with this list...
1) Wasn't Big O a shooting guard??
2) If Big O makes the list, then how come Iverson doesn't?
3) Excluding the Big O, the order should have been Magic > John Stockton > Isiah Thomas> Walt Frazier> Jason Kidd = Gary Payton > Tiny Archibald > Bob Cousy
4) Point Guards that were all better than Steve Nash:
I think that's why he posted a pic of TP holding the Finals MVP trophy..
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Yeah Tony parker the point guard who can't defend, pass, or shoot is somehow better point guard than Steve Nash.
In all honesty I think Kevin Johnson, Chauncey Buillips, Tony Parker and Steve Nash are all one the same level in terms of production they both are totallydifferent types of point gauard suited for different types of offenses.
In all honesty I think Kevin Johnson, Chauncey Buillips, Tony Parker and Steve Nash are all one the same level in terms of production they both are totallydifferent types of point gauard suited for different types of offenses.
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TEAMS get to NBA Finals not a player and considering the amount of backlash the award voters for making stupid votes I'm not sure how valid that argumentis.
Like I said depends on the type of team I have which point guard is better
If I had a team where I had a strong infrastructure where I didn't need my point guard to control the offense, make a lot decisions or have any sort ofpassing vision the I would take Tony Parker.
If I had a team with a slow offense, without an elite offensive player and needed a floor general to run the offenses as efficiently to squeeze the most out ofa weak offense the I would take Chauncey.
But If I have an offense thats blazing fast with million without set plays but lots of decisions that have to made on the fly, there is no one better thanSteve Nash.
Like I said depends on the type of team I have which point guard is better
If I had a team where I had a strong infrastructure where I didn't need my point guard to control the offense, make a lot decisions or have any sort ofpassing vision the I would take Tony Parker.
If I had a team with a slow offense, without an elite offensive player and needed a floor general to run the offenses as efficiently to squeeze the most out ofa weak offense the I would take Chauncey.
But If I have an offense thats blazing fast with million without set plays but lots of decisions that have to made on the fly, there is no one better thanSteve Nash.
D
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To all you guys saying Stockton should be behind Magic I am surprised how quickly you forget the way GP destroyed him repeatedly in their regular season andpostseason match-ups. The other thing I have an issue with is this notion that he was a deadly shooter. Maybe he was great in the regular season and earlyplayoff rounds but when they needed him to be "deadly" the most in the Finals he was very pedestrian. Stockton and Malone both came up short in thoseFinals appearances against the Bulls the only guy that showed for the Jazz was Hornacek.
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The Nash hate has gotten a little ridiculous, he is better than Chauncey, KJ and tony Parker.
A lot of the hate is because he is white. Yea I said it.
A lot of the hate is because he is white. Yea I said it.
xtapolapacetl
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As are the comments that say Stockton is better than Isiah. Yea I said it.
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That's all a load of crap. And if we goin that route, then as I said, Derek Fisher > Steve Nash.
For a title contending team, I would want Derek Fisher rather then Steve Nash. Right?
I don't know if you remember this, but as sad as it sounds, it's true, when the Lakers hit rock bottom and were starting Smush Parker at PG, he played his best games against Steve Nash. And this was while Nash was the "MVP".......if Smush Parker is having his best games against you, and you are the MVP of the league, you should walk away from the game right now.
It's the equivalent of Luke Walton having his best games against LeBron is it not?
Nash never was, and never will be a better player then all the PG's I listed. His only burn is because he plays in such a ridiculous fast offense that allows him to put up meaningless numbers and then when it matters in the playoffs his teams always wimper out like a bunch of @#$%^$#. Always has been the case, always will be. The dude is overrated and to be listed in the top 10 PG's of all time is a JOKE. Of epic proportions.
A FLAT OUT JOKE.
He couldn't beat any of these guys in a game of one on one. He has ZERO postseason resume that matters, at least better then what TMac has accomplished, but not chip level. Every other PG we're talking about does, minus CP3, and that's coming eventually. Nash is a fraud and hides behind pumped up stats like a hitter at Coors field.
Couple questions.
I know you don't believe that Derek Fisher none sense?
Basketball is a one on one game? Last time I checked I thought there were 5 people?
Tony Parker sucks at defense, Kevin Johnson sucked at defense too, hey I wouldn't say Chauncey sucks but I he is a very overrated defensive player so howall these guys can suck at defense and get a pass but Steve gets harped on?
You and I both know you don't know anything about stats. There are many stats that adjust for pace, PER, Offensive Rating, Assist %, Rebound %, ect, ect,and guess what? For the most part Steve measures out equal if not greater than all of those guys.
Look at there career PER's
KJ: 20.7
TP: 18.5
CB: 19.0
SN: 20.0
Look at the amount of points they score per 100 possessions (removing the advantage of a faster paced offense)
KJ: 118
TP: 108
CB: 118
SN: 118
Look at there assist percentage (the percentage of there teams points they assisted on)
KJ: 38%
TP: 31.5%
CB: 29%
SN: 39%
Steve's statistically legit and this is me ignoring the effect he has on his teammates.
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Tp can't pass or shoot now? Maybe when he 1st came in he is just fine now
And some of you overrate the hell out of Nash
But then cp just makes it seem like he is a bench warming bum
if the suns called and said we would trade you Nash for fisher the trade would be done in a sec
And some of you overrate the hell out of Nash
But then cp just makes it seem like he is a bench warming bum
if the suns called and said we would trade you Nash for fisher the trade would be done in a sec
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No Lebron?!
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Couple questions.
I know you don't believe that Derek Fisher none sense?
Basketball is a one on one game? Last time I checked I thought there were 5 people?
Tony Parker sucks at defense, Kevin Johnson sucked at defense too, hey I wouldn't say Chauncey sucks but I he is a very overrated defensive player so how all these guys can suck at defense and get a pass but Steve gets harped on?
You and I both know you don't know anything about stats. There are many stats that adjust for pace, PER, Offensive Rating, Assist %, Rebound %, ect, ect, and guess what? For the most part Steve measures out equal if not greater than all of those guys.
Look at there career PER's
KJ: 20.7
TP: 18.5
CB: 19.0
SN: 20.0
Look at the amount of points they score per 100 possessions (removing the advantage of a faster paced offense)
KJ: 118
TP: 108
CB: 118
SN: 118
Look at there assist percentage (the percentage of there teams points they assisted on)
KJ: 38%
TP: 31.5%
CB: 29%
SN: 39%
Steve's statistically legit and this is me ignoring the effect he has on his teammates.
Bump
Oh I agree, not CP of course, but a lot of lesser informed basketball fans are influenced by that.
God damn you Mike.
Osh, I know the game isn't one on one, I used as a point of them matched up against each other. But since the game is 5 on 5, and all the other guys ilisted managed to go the finals, (and multiple times I might add except KJ) should that not be held against dear old Steve? I think it should.
And this whole Nash makes guys better is BS. Tell me, when Billups passes to Wallace down low, what stat shows any benefit for Billups? We all know thatWallace can't do anything offensively. So let's look at it this way. If I switched Billups onto the Suns run and gun squad, as they still elite? Dothey make a finals? Do his stats increase? Bet they do.
Does Nash stats increase playing in Detroit? Bet they don't. Do they make a finals? Bet they don't.
I never said Nash was a bench warmer. I said he was overrated, maybe thee most overrated player in the league, which I could make a good case because mostoverrated players out there don't carry two fake MVP awads with them.
And NO. No, I would not trade Fisher for Nash. No, I would not. Not ever. I value championship clutchness, something Nash is severly lacking. Someone whowill hit clutch shots, in moment where most players are scared little girls. D Fish is not one of those, and you can NOT put a price on a guy like that. Ishe more talented? No. Is he a better player per say? No. Who would I rather have the ball to lead my offense in the final possesion of a playoff game? Itain't Steve Nash.
I'd be ok with Billups in the clutch. I'd be ok with Tony Parker in the clutch. CP3, you bet. Even KJ seein as how he played in a golden era ofPG's and more then held his own. So Nash is behind ALL of these players. Top 15 AT BEST. Top 10 is a joke, a flat out joke.
Osh, I know the game isn't one on one, I used as a point of them matched up against each other. But since the game is 5 on 5, and all the other guys ilisted managed to go the finals, (and multiple times I might add except KJ) should that not be held against dear old Steve? I think it should.
And this whole Nash makes guys better is BS. Tell me, when Billups passes to Wallace down low, what stat shows any benefit for Billups? We all know thatWallace can't do anything offensively. So let's look at it this way. If I switched Billups onto the Suns run and gun squad, as they still elite? Dothey make a finals? Do his stats increase? Bet they do.
Does Nash stats increase playing in Detroit? Bet they don't. Do they make a finals? Bet they don't.
I never said Nash was a bench warmer. I said he was overrated, maybe thee most overrated player in the league, which I could make a good case because mostoverrated players out there don't carry two fake MVP awads with them.
And NO. No, I would not trade Fisher for Nash. No, I would not. Not ever. I value championship clutchness, something Nash is severly lacking. Someone whowill hit clutch shots, in moment where most players are scared little girls. D Fish is not one of those, and you can NOT put a price on a guy like that. Ishe more talented? No. Is he a better player per say? No. Who would I rather have the ball to lead my offense in the final possesion of a playoff game? Itain't Steve Nash.
I'd be ok with Billups in the clutch. I'd be ok with Tony Parker in the clutch. CP3, you bet. Even KJ seein as how he played in a golden era ofPG's and more then held his own. So Nash is behind ALL of these players. Top 15 AT BEST. Top 10 is a joke, a flat out joke.
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See I was somewhat with you until there ....... which team was it that the Bulls had to finally overcome to go to the Finals ...... that was constantlywhopping them in the playoffs ... that had the Jordan Rules .......... that basically helped shaped the Bulls into the championship team they later became ?
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all those stats are tempo free
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Eh, IMO, In the end in a one point game the winner essentially boils down to luck. Clutch is this arbitrary Disney sports movie word that doesn't exist...
And this whole Nash makes guys better is BS. Tell me, when Billups passes to Wallace down low, what stat shows any benefit for Billups? We all know that Wallace can't do anything offensively. So let's look at it this way. If I switched Billups onto the Suns run and gun squad, as they still elite? Do they make a finals? Do his stats increase? Bet they do.
His conventional stats will but his pace adjust stats will be the same, FYI Bullips stats actually dropped when he went to the fast paced nuggets,indicating he is a more efficient player in a half court system.
The slower the offense the more effective Chauncey is, he led the league in points per 100 possessions when Detroit had the 29th slowest offense in the leagueNash is the opposite the faster the offense and the more control he has over it the more efficient he becomes.
Any great players mere presence can make there teammates "better" or just give easier shots to make, for example, a *$!*%$ point guard gets Wallacethe ball at the top of the key where he has no chance in hell of scoring, but Chauncey becuase of his penetration is able to draw the defense to him and throwa lob pass too Big Ben improving big bens chances of scoring? \\
So how does the reflect in the numbers?
[h3][size=-1]
[/size] [size=-1][size=+2]Chauncey Billups (Nuggets)
[/size][/size][/h3][size=-1]Many stats are shown on a 'per 48minute' basis
[/size][table][tr][td][size=-1]Stat[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]ON Court[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]OFF Court[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1]Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]114.4[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]106.0[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+8.4[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1]Effective FG%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]51.6%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]50.2%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+1.5%[/size][/td] [/tr][/table]
8 point improvement when Chauncey is controlling the ball, nice.nowlets compare that too MVP Nash.
[size=-1][size=+2]Steve Nash (1st MVP)[/size][/size]
Many stats are shown on a 'per 48 minute' basis
[table][tr][td][size=-1]Stat[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]ON Court[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]OFF Court[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1]Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]121.7[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]104.1[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+17.6[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1]Effective FG%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]55.5%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]49.4%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+6.2%[/size][/td] [/tr][/table]
The Suns gain 17 POINTS on offense when Nash gets on the court.
There field goal percentage rises 6% too.
Now how about CLUTCH PLAY? These are there stats with 4th quarter or overtime with less than 4 minutes to play with less than a 5 point lead.
Nash(sdsMVP 1)
[table][tr][td][size=-1]Min[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net Pts[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Off[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Def[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net48[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]W[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]L[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Win%[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1] 82%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+51[/size][/td] [td][size=-1] 122.1[/size][/td] [td][size=-1] 99.2[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]22.9[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]25[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]8[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]75.8%[/size][/td] [/tr][/table]
[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]Chauncey (05-06)[/color]
[table][tr][td][size=-1]Min[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net Pts[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Off[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Def[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Net48[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]W[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]L[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]Win%[/size][/td] [/tr][tr][td][size=-1] 94%[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]+72[/size][/td] [td][size=-1] 108.4[/size][/td] [td][size=-1] 85.7[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]22.6[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]24[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]13[/size][/td] [td][size=-1]64.9%[/size][/td] [/tr][/table]xx
As you would expect Nash's offense is better and Chauncey defense is better but Nash has a higher winning percentage in close games.
Oh for the love of God don't try and tell me that Nash (and his teams) are more clutch now then Billups. You can't be serious.
And before I totally lose it, guess what, i happen to think that Billups is overrated as a big gamer. He's hit some big shots. He's won some games,but lately he has been livin on rep and disappearing in the biggest of the big games. (see all those conference finals the Pistons and now Nuggets have lostin.) I'm not totally dumb.
How bout this, where is the stat from when Billups and the Pistons rolled into Phoenix and kicked the crap outta the Suns with Billups scoring 34 and Nashscoring ZERO during Nash's MVP season? What MVP has EVER in the history of the game, been done like that in a game on their own floor by a player THEYwere defending, being defended against? Throw that stat at me.
Billups may not be as clutch as announcers like to say, but he's been to SEVEN conference finals in a row. SEVEN. Nash don't have 7 in his career. Billups is the better player, everyone knows it but Nash slurpers who make up crazy stats to show how much he means to already talented basketball players.
And before I totally lose it, guess what, i happen to think that Billups is overrated as a big gamer. He's hit some big shots. He's won some games,but lately he has been livin on rep and disappearing in the biggest of the big games. (see all those conference finals the Pistons and now Nuggets have lostin.) I'm not totally dumb.
How bout this, where is the stat from when Billups and the Pistons rolled into Phoenix and kicked the crap outta the Suns with Billups scoring 34 and Nashscoring ZERO during Nash's MVP season? What MVP has EVER in the history of the game, been done like that in a game on their own floor by a player THEYwere defending, being defended against? Throw that stat at me.
Billups may not be as clutch as announcers like to say, but he's been to SEVEN conference finals in a row. SEVEN. Nash don't have 7 in his career. Billups is the better player, everyone knows it but Nash slurpers who make up crazy stats to show how much he means to already talented basketball players.
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As I said I don't believe in "clutch" these this I'm not trying to tell you anything these are simply what the numbers say, food for thoughtas it were.
Also you are commpletley ignoring the fact that the Phoenix suns played in the western confrence as opposed to the JV league they lost twice to the eventualchampions (Spurs) and lost the other time to the real champions Dallas Mavericks.
Also Steve Nash is 14-11 in all head to head match ups with Chauncey.
Also you are commpletley ignoring the fact that the Phoenix suns played in the western confrence as opposed to the JV league they lost twice to the eventualchampions (Spurs) and lost the other time to the real champions Dallas Mavericks.
Also Steve Nash is 14-11 in all head to head match ups with Chauncey.
