Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[seymore cake]

My point is that people who others have made cases for as the GOAT are referring to him as the GOAT, one of which played with & won chips with Kareem didn't hesitate a second to say MJ. You hear more great players/basketball minds who've watched the game before us saying that Mike's the best thats ever done it than you hear say otherwise.

Hell I can only remember 2 players being the voice of opposition to this label and they were Kareem & Wilt... Russell didn't care & Oscar wouldn't answer the question if I recall correctly.

 

[CP1708]

HankMoody wrote:

---

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.
Let me make this clear, I know that Mike is #1.  I am not saying otherwise, but I saw Hank's request yesterday and didn't have time, I figured I would offer up at least an attempt at some perspective. 

Magic

Same as Mike, his second year in the league was ruined due to injury.  (Sort of strange for both)
Won a title in college
5 titles, 9 trips to the NBA finals in 12 seasons.  (his comeback was nothing, same as MJ as a Wiz)
Career ended prematurely at the age of 31, he still had 3-4 years to play high level.
3 Finals MVP's
3 NBA MVP's
2 All Star MVP's
Finished top 3 in MVP voting 9 years in a row.
Mike was the bigger scorer, but if you took Magic's assists plus points, as well as Mike's, the distance closes dramatically.  Mike still with the edge of course, about 5K points or so total.  But not the 14K total points you see under their stat lines.
Magic AVERAGED 19.5, 11 assists, 7 rebounds, on 52%, and 85%FT's as well as 2 stls a game and never once played 40 minutes a game for a year.  In fact, the man never hit 39 minutes a game.  He literally had 10 minutes off a night for his career.  Imagine his numbers with an extra minute or two a game in his early to mid 20's. 

In the Playoffs, Magic led teams won 32 series, and lost 7.  2 of those 7, Magic was hurt/injured.  (he played, or gave it a go, but he wasn't "healthy" so to speak) 

Final totals look like 17,800 pts, 10,100 assists, 6500 rebounds.  Had he made it to 34, he gets to 21K, 12K, and 8K.........

 

His playoff numbers were 3700, 2300, and 1450.  2-3 years of second round runs at worst, he tops 4K, 2500, and 1600.  STUPID numbers right there. 

The Greatest PG of all time lined up at Center on the road and dropped the best playoff game we might have ever seen.  (Though none of us saw it live)  He might be the only player I know of that honestly could have played every spot on the floor in games for long stretches.  He couldn't play Center every night, but he coulda given you minutes there.  The game back then wasn't as specialized as it is today.  If they ran "small" lineups, he certainly could have played C if he needed too. 

I might be forgetting a few things, but that's the best I can think of right now, as I said, Mike is #1, I wouldn't dispute that, but he asked, I gave an offer.  Just for information sakes. 
  

 

[CP1708]

HankMoody wrote:

---

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.
Let me make this clear, I know that Mike is #1.  I am not saying otherwise, but I saw Hank's request yesterday and didn't have time, I figured I would offer up at least an attempt at some perspective. 

Magic

Same as Mike, his second year in the league was ruined due to injury.  (Sort of strange for both)
Won a title in college
5 titles, 9 trips to the NBA finals in 12 seasons.  (his comeback was nothing, same as MJ as a Wiz)
Career ended prematurely at the age of 31, he still had 3-4 years to play high level.
3 Finals MVP's
3 NBA MVP's
2 All Star MVP's
Finished top 3 in MVP voting 9 years in a row.
Mike was the bigger scorer, but if you took Magic's assists plus points, as well as Mike's, the distance closes dramatically.  Mike still with the edge of course, about 5K points or so total.  But not the 14K total points you see under their stat lines.
Magic AVERAGED 19.5, 11 assists, 7 rebounds, on 52%, and 85%FT's as well as 2 stls a game and never once played 40 minutes a game for a year.  In fact, the man never hit 39 minutes a game.  He literally had 10 minutes off a night for his career.  Imagine his numbers with an extra minute or two a game in his early to mid 20's. 

In the Playoffs, Magic led teams won 32 series, and lost 7.  2 of those 7, Magic was hurt/injured.  (he played, or gave it a go, but he wasn't "healthy" so to speak) 

Final totals look like 17,800 pts, 10,100 assists, 6500 rebounds.  Had he made it to 34, he gets to 21K, 12K, and 8K.........

 

His playoff numbers were 3700, 2300, and 1450.  2-3 years of second round runs at worst, he tops 4K, 2500, and 1600.  STUPID numbers right there. 

The Greatest PG of all time lined up at Center on the road and dropped the best playoff game we might have ever seen.  (Though none of us saw it live)  He might be the only player I know of that honestly could have played every spot on the floor in games for long stretches.  He couldn't play Center every night, but he coulda given you minutes there.  The game back then wasn't as specialized as it is today.  If they ran "small" lineups, he certainly could have played C if he needed too. 

I might be forgetting a few things, but that's the best I can think of right now, as I said, Mike is #1, I wouldn't dispute that, but he asked, I gave an offer.  Just for information sakes. 
  

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

My point is that people who others have made cases for as the GOAT are referring to him as the GOAT, one of which played with & won chips with Kareem didn't hesitate a second to say MJ. You hear more great players/basketball minds who've watched the game before us saying that Mike's the best thats ever done it than you hear say otherwise.

Hell I can only remember 2 players being the voice of opposition to this label and they were Kareem & Wilt... Russell didn't care & Oscar wouldn't answer the question if I recall correctly.

And again, how is Magic and Bird's opinion not biased considered they played against the dude. Jordan is of their era. Slightly. So wouldn't it be in their best interest to consider him the greatest since he halted them both a few extra chances of winning, towards the end of their careers. How can Magic speak on who is the ALL TIME best when he didn't pla against the greats of yesteryear?

My angle isn't that I don't think Jordan is great, but when we just keep throwing out Jordan is the best of all time as if it is the undisputed truth, I have an issue with that. It is a generationally biased statement.

 

[grittyman20]

CP maybe the guy will read your post, because I made an argument for Kareem that obviously went over his head

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

My point is that people who others have made cases for as the GOAT are referring to him as the GOAT, one of which played with & won chips with Kareem didn't hesitate a second to say MJ. You hear more great players/basketball minds who've watched the game before us saying that Mike's the best thats ever done it than you hear say otherwise.

Hell I can only remember 2 players being the voice of opposition to this label and they were Kareem & Wilt... Russell didn't care & Oscar wouldn't answer the question if I recall correctly.

And again, how is Magic and Bird's opinion not biased considered they played against the dude. Jordan is of their era. Slightly. So wouldn't it be in their best interest to consider him the greatest since he halted them both a few extra chances of winning, towards the end of their careers. How can Magic speak on who is the ALL TIME best when he didn't pla against the greats of yesteryear?

My angle isn't that I don't think Jordan is great, but when we just keep throwing out Jordan is the best of all time as if it is the undisputed truth, I have an issue with that. It is a generationally biased statement.

 

[grittyman20]

CP maybe the guy will read your post, because I made an argument for Kareem that obviously went over his head

 

[CP1708]

I thought the Kareem one was a good one too, but he is one that got a lot done with longevity.  And I can see that case.  Also alot of the centers at the time were done and gone.  I'd have to look into his career a little more to really come up with a feel for him.  But Magic's 9 finals in 12 years talks to me, loudly. 

 

 

[CP1708]

I thought the Kareem one was a good one too, but he is one that got a lot done with longevity.  And I can see that case.  Also alot of the centers at the time were done and gone.  I'd have to look into his career a little more to really come up with a feel for him.  But Magic's 9 finals in 12 years talks to me, loudly. 

 

 

[seymore cake]

Originally Posted by CP1708

HankMoody wrote:

---

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.

Let me make this clear, I know that Mike is #1.  I am not saying otherwise, but I saw Hank's request yesterday and didn't have time, I figured I would offer up at least an attempt at some perspective. 

Magic

Same as Mike, his second year in the league was ruined due to injury.  (Sort of strange for both)
Won a title in college
5 titles, 9 trips to the NBA finals in 12 seasons.  (his comeback was nothing, same as MJ as a Wiz)
Career ended prematurely at the age of 31, he still had 3-4 years to play high level.
3 Finals MVP's
3 NBA MVP's
2 All Star MVP's
Finished top 3 in MVP voting 9 years in a row.
Mike was the bigger scorer, but if you took Magic's assists plus points, as well as Mike's, the distance closes dramatically.  Mike still with the edge of course, about 5K points or so total.  But not the 14K total points you see under their stat lines.
Magic AVERAGED 19.5, 11 assists, 7 rebounds, on 52%, and 85%FT's as well as 2 stls a game and never once played 40 minutes a game for a year.  In fact, the man never hit 39 minutes a game.  He literally had 10 minutes off a night for his career.  Imagine his numbers with an extra minute or two a game in his early to mid 20's. 

In the Playoffs, Magic led teams won 32 series, and lost 7.  2 of those 7, Magic was hurt/injured.  (he played, or gave it a go, but he wasn't "healthy" so to speak) 

Final totals look like 17,800 pts, 10,100 assists, 6500 rebounds.  Had he made it to 34, he gets to 21K, 12K, and 8K.........

 

His playoff numbers were 3700, 2300, and 1450.  2-3 years of second round runs at worst, he tops 4K, 2500, and 1600.  STUPID numbers right there. 

The Greatest PG of all time lined up at Center on the road and dropped the best playoff game we might have ever seen.  (Though none of us saw it live)  He might be the only player I know of that honestly could have played every spot on the floor in games for long stretches.  He couldn't play Center every night, but he coulda given you minutes there.  The game back then wasn't as specialized as it is today.  If they ran "small" lineups, he certainly could have played C if he needed too. 

I might be forgetting a few things, but that's the best I can think of right now, as I said, Mike is #1, I wouldn't dispute that, but he asked, I gave an offer.  Just for information sakes. 
  


   Magic is that dude and if I had to pick anyone not named Jeffery it would be him without a Blink of an Eye.

@DC that doesn't make sense at all... Why would it be in his best interest to lay claim to Mike when he can lay clame to himself considering that he is top 5 of all time & the greatest PG that's ever lived. Or to Kareem who's his teammate with whom he won 5 titles with.  Or Larry Bird who's his best friend and is the best SF of all time and also a top 5 player of all time with who he'd been rivals with since college.  He has no agenda with calling MJ the GOAT any of those other 3 (including himself although self preservations is natures 1st law) and you may have been on to something.

 

[grittyman20]

Kobe might be in the discussion for greatest Laker of all time, based on his longevity over Magic. I can't penalize anyone for taking care of their bodies in order to further their playing career

 

[seymore cake]

Originally Posted by CP1708

HankMoody wrote:

---

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.

Let me make this clear, I know that Mike is #1.  I am not saying otherwise, but I saw Hank's request yesterday and didn't have time, I figured I would offer up at least an attempt at some perspective. 

Magic

Same as Mike, his second year in the league was ruined due to injury.  (Sort of strange for both)
Won a title in college
5 titles, 9 trips to the NBA finals in 12 seasons.  (his comeback was nothing, same as MJ as a Wiz)
Career ended prematurely at the age of 31, he still had 3-4 years to play high level.
3 Finals MVP's
3 NBA MVP's
2 All Star MVP's
Finished top 3 in MVP voting 9 years in a row.
Mike was the bigger scorer, but if you took Magic's assists plus points, as well as Mike's, the distance closes dramatically.  Mike still with the edge of course, about 5K points or so total.  But not the 14K total points you see under their stat lines.
Magic AVERAGED 19.5, 11 assists, 7 rebounds, on 52%, and 85%FT's as well as 2 stls a game and never once played 40 minutes a game for a year.  In fact, the man never hit 39 minutes a game.  He literally had 10 minutes off a night for his career.  Imagine his numbers with an extra minute or two a game in his early to mid 20's. 

In the Playoffs, Magic led teams won 32 series, and lost 7.  2 of those 7, Magic was hurt/injured.  (he played, or gave it a go, but he wasn't "healthy" so to speak) 

Final totals look like 17,800 pts, 10,100 assists, 6500 rebounds.  Had he made it to 34, he gets to 21K, 12K, and 8K.........

 

His playoff numbers were 3700, 2300, and 1450.  2-3 years of second round runs at worst, he tops 4K, 2500, and 1600.  STUPID numbers right there. 

The Greatest PG of all time lined up at Center on the road and dropped the best playoff game we might have ever seen.  (Though none of us saw it live)  He might be the only player I know of that honestly could have played every spot on the floor in games for long stretches.  He couldn't play Center every night, but he coulda given you minutes there.  The game back then wasn't as specialized as it is today.  If they ran "small" lineups, he certainly could have played C if he needed too. 

I might be forgetting a few things, but that's the best I can think of right now, as I said, Mike is #1, I wouldn't dispute that, but he asked, I gave an offer.  Just for information sakes. 
  


   Magic is that dude and if I had to pick anyone not named Jeffery it would be him without a Blink of an Eye.

@DC that doesn't make sense at all... Why would it be in his best interest to lay claim to Mike when he can lay clame to himself considering that he is top 5 of all time & the greatest PG that's ever lived. Or to Kareem who's his teammate with whom he won 5 titles with.  Or Larry Bird who's his best friend and is the best SF of all time and also a top 5 player of all time with who he'd been rivals with since college.  He has no agenda with calling MJ the GOAT any of those other 3 (including himself although self preservations is natures 1st law) and you may have been on to something.

 

[grittyman20]

Kobe might be in the discussion for greatest Laker of all time, based on his longevity over Magic. I can't penalize anyone for taking care of their bodies in order to further their playing career

 

[vcxv]

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

Dude has accolades that may be comparable to other all time historic greats, but none of them had the exposure
to the ENTIRE WORLD that MJ with Nike backing him up. MJ essentially revolutionized the sneaker market for
athletes and the introduction of the Air Jordan line had all the kids in the world going nuts wanting to "Be Like Mike".
Couple that with cameos with Spike, Michael Jackson, and the whole 9 yards essentially insinuated and placed MJ
on the mantle as THAT DUDE.

Mike was more than a superstar in the NBA, dude was made into an icon, a commodity, an idol that penetrated well beyond just the world of basketball.

These aspects of Mike's career is what I think aids in leaving the residual perception, which still strongly stands to this day given that his name still remains dominant and relevant in the business/sporting world via the success of Jordan Brand that ultimately keeps MJ fresh in people's minds that adds to the perception of his greatness. Just my two cents.

I still think he's GOAT FWIW but I don't shut down/bash prospecting other greats that could surpass or be up there with MJ like some do.

 

[vcxv]

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

Dude has accolades that may be comparable to other all time historic greats, but none of them had the exposure
to the ENTIRE WORLD that MJ with Nike backing him up. MJ essentially revolutionized the sneaker market for
athletes and the introduction of the Air Jordan line had all the kids in the world going nuts wanting to "Be Like Mike".
Couple that with cameos with Spike, Michael Jackson, and the whole 9 yards essentially insinuated and placed MJ
on the mantle as THAT DUDE.

Mike was more than a superstar in the NBA, dude was made into an icon, a commodity, an idol that penetrated well beyond just the world of basketball.

These aspects of Mike's career is what I think aids in leaving the residual perception, which still strongly stands to this day given that his name still remains dominant and relevant in the business/sporting world via the success of Jordan Brand that ultimately keeps MJ fresh in people's minds that adds to the perception of his greatness. Just my two cents.

I still think he's GOAT FWIW but I don't shut down/bash prospecting other greats that could surpass or be up there with MJ like some do.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

It makes PERFECT sense to anoint someone that beat you on your way out the best. Because you can make the claim that you lost to the best.

Why would Magic admit that Bird was better than him when Bird was his #1 direct rival? He would never do that, I would hope not.

Kareem? I don't know his story. Kareem doesn't seem to have many friends in high places, maybe he did something to Magic, not sure.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

It makes PERFECT sense to anoint someone that beat you on your way out the best. Because you can make the claim that you lost to the best.

Why would Magic admit that Bird was better than him when Bird was his #1 direct rival? He would never do that, I would hope not.

Kareem? I don't know his story. Kareem doesn't seem to have many friends in high places, maybe he did something to Magic, not sure.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by VCXV

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by VCXV

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers


i've considered guys like magic considering how he was a pure point guard who won and made everyone around him better, and wilt to an extent to but jordans resume speaks for itself.

Russell and Kareem?

People can't help who they play against. I am not sure it is right to compare the athleticsm of our era and say, "If there were athletes back then like there are today, WIlt wouldn't have done X, Y, Z." How unfair is that? So because someone came before means they have to be penalized for it since the sport was still in its infancy stages?

You look at what everyone did vs. the competition of their time.

My issue with Wilt is this... He had 1 person as competition and he NEVER dominated him... By all accounts Russell sonned him regularly...

Define "sonned." Wilt averaged 29 points and 29 rebounds in 142 games against Russell. Dropped 50 on him seven times, including a 62 point game. And yes, Russell was obviously on the winning side the majority of the time, but he had a better coach, much better teammates, and a team that had stayed together for a long time and was a really cohesive unit, according to all accounts.

Edit:: Russell averaged 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds in those contests. And they were guarding each other straight up basically every minute. Seems like Wilt was the guy doing the dominating.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers


i've considered guys like magic considering how he was a pure point guard who won and made everyone around him better, and wilt to an extent to but jordans resume speaks for itself.

Russell and Kareem?

People can't help who they play against. I am not sure it is right to compare the athleticsm of our era and say, "If there were athletes back then like there are today, WIlt wouldn't have done X, Y, Z." How unfair is that? So because someone came before means they have to be penalized for it since the sport was still in its infancy stages?

You look at what everyone did vs. the competition of their time.

My issue with Wilt is this... He had 1 person as competition and he NEVER dominated him... By all accounts Russell sonned him regularly...

Define "sonned." Wilt averaged 29 points and 29 rebounds in 142 games against Russell. Dropped 50 on him seven times, including a 62 point game. And yes, Russell was obviously on the winning side the majority of the time, but he had a better coach, much better teammates, and a team that had stayed together for a long time and was a really cohesive unit, according to all accounts.

Edit:: Russell averaged 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds in those contests. And they were guarding each other straight up basically every minute. Seems like Wilt was the guy doing the dominating.

 

[hankmoody]

Can't use the if argument because MJ took almost two years off in the prime of his career ( he just averaged 40+ in the 93 finals). So that argument shouldn't be used... another two years after averaging 30 in 98.

Kareem argument was read... don't think he ever had sustained dominance as MJ. So that's a knock against him. Plus, he didn't win the finals MVP every time... these are knocks. What are the knocks against MJ? He seems to have done it all to me and the stats and accomplishments back that up.

Obviously the argument is not indisputable. Of course it's not a fact. But, the best argument for the greatest player can be made with Jordan's career. That's why I give it to him.

 

[vcxv]

Originally Posted by VCXV

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

DCAllAmerican wrote:

---

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.
This.

 

[hankmoody]

Can't use the if argument because MJ took almost two years off in the prime of his career ( he just averaged 40+ in the 93 finals). So that argument shouldn't be used... another two years after averaging 30 in 98.

Kareem argument was read... don't think he ever had sustained dominance as MJ. So that's a knock against him. Plus, he didn't win the finals MVP every time... these are knocks. What are the knocks against MJ? He seems to have done it all to me and the stats and accomplishments back that up.

Obviously the argument is not indisputable. Of course it's not a fact. But, the best argument for the greatest player can be made with Jordan's career. That's why I give it to him.

 

[vcxv]

Originally Posted by VCXV

Didn't read through the entire thread but from a business perspective, don't any of you think its plausible that
the advancement of media, advertisement, and a whole lot of Nike contributed heavily to immortalizing MJ's legendary image?

DCAllAmerican wrote:

---

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.
This.