lunar foam... DISCUSS

[joejoebob2099]

everyone knows that zoom air is better than lunar foam (performance wise). the slight addition of weight of zoom air is WELL WORTH the cushioning performanceadvantages over lunar foam. even nike must know this.

so why do shoes like the kobe 4, and soon to come hyperlite and hyperize still use zoom in the heel + lunar foam in the forefoot, whereas the crappy lower tiershoes like the coming solider iii use zoom in heel + zoom in the forefoot?

my theory is... money

nike is a business. the goal of a business is to profit.

simply put, lunar foam does not last nearly as long as zoom. resulting in the consumers having to purchase shoes more frequently to reap the performancebenefits of the shoes over time.
also, manufacturing wise... what's harder to make? a precisely made polyurethane bag that encases a multitude of fibers that is pressurized and held intension, or a chunk of foam?

more frequent purchases + lower manufacturing cost = more profit for nike.

 

[binye]

It's so funny that you mention this because i was wearing my kobe iv's last night to the gym and it's a dramatic difference when you're on theelliptical machine... the zoom is SO MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE than that low-grade lunar foam crap.

It's like the heel is cloud-comparable pleasure with each and every step - sheer bliss relaly... while the forefoot is just regular rubber-texture-feelingmaterial.

But my theory is that the lunar foam was meant to be tougher than the zoom (it being in the forefoot for a reason - when you're running, stopping, all thattension goes to the forefoot, so it's quite necessary). Now, i don't know exactly what lunar foam material consists of, but if it feels denser,shouldn't it be, overall... tougher in construction?

Is it proven that lunar doesn't possess the same extraordinary mileage as the zoom?

Since it's relatively new shoe cushioning technology, i'm gonna say that it's too soon to announce.

What do you guys think?

...

 

[joejoebob2099]

nike claims lunar foam is 30% lighter than regular phylon.

assuming they mean under equivalent volumes, this means its 30% less dense than phylon.

less dense materials will bottom out, and stop returning to their original thickness, faster than dense materials

 

[bkazk]

(don't forget about a growing number of shoes being made with synthetic leather instead of real leather...for the sake of "lightweight"performance...yeah right.)

 

[binye]

Originally Posted by joejoebob2099

nike claims lunar foam is 30% lighter than regular phylon.

assuming they mean under equivalent volumes, this means its 30% less dense than phylon.

less dense materials will bottom out, and stop returning to their original thickness, faster than dense materials

Ok... i feel you there. I did a little more research because i knew absolutely nothing about this "lunar" stuff just 10 minutes ago other thanit's foam.

Interesting read, goes into further detail regarding your technical spiel...

_________________________


Lunar Foam, a material that was originally created by NASA, has been incorporated into a new cushioning system by Nike. Lunar Foam offers the most impactprotection of any shoe on the market today. During initial testing, runners reported less fatigue and quicker recovery times after long runs. It also answersthe question of how to incorporate maximum cushioning without adding excessive weight to the shoe. Lunar Foam is 30% lighter than the next leading cushioningsystem, Phylon, which is also by Nike. All of this is even more amazing considering that the foam deteriorates when exposed to water and air. Nike'sbiggest problem was discovering how to encapsulate the material into the outsole of a shoe. After many tests and models, the design teams were able tocarve out an outsole that would be supportive but also harness the full benefits of Lunar Foam.

_________________________

Hopefully, the bolded portion will alleviate any misconceptions about this novel technology introduced to the world via nasa (ooohhh, so fancy!).

Honestly, i like the concept and they do serve their purpose (the whole "lighter" and "reducing impact" ordeal becomes resolved in thisequation).

The way they advertise it makes it seem like an ideal candidate for future cushioning technology.

Like i said, only time will reveal how this lunar foam stuff responds to wear-and-tear.

*does jumping jacks to prepare*

 

[ldea]

Nike wants to give people options. Some people don't like cushioning that's too responsive while others love it. Sure lunar probably costs less tomake, and lunarfoam shoes are overpriced, but if it was all about money, Nike would stick lunar into every shoe.

 

[joejoebob2099]

^^ interesting point...

they only compare lunar foam to phlyon "the next leading cushioning system"

technically, zoom air could be lighter than lunar foam, they just didnt state it, they only state its lighter than phylon. afterall, volume wise...the majorityof zoom air is probably AIR - which weighs next to nothing.



and, to quote KOBE BRYANT himself, from the kobe 4 s o l e co l l e c t o r issue:

I'm still a big fan of Zoom, but the

foam ain't bad either.



he says it "ain't bad", but it also ain't great.

 

[xlebroniv23]

I find it funny you call the Soldier 3 a "crappy lower tier" shoe when your calling Lunar crap and they have zoom?
Ask anyone if soldiers are crap and you'l get a no. Buts thats beside the point.
Lunar is not a bad cushioning I just think it shouldn't be used for basketball. It works fine when you are getting a new pair every game ex: Kobe and otherPro's but it's not designed to take miles a miles especially when it is used only in the heel or forefoot. I run every day and the LunarTrainers/Racers are the best running shoes I've ever had. In the case of these shoes the whole shoe is Lunar and it is really thick compared to that usedin the Kobes/HD's. Am I saying Lunar is better than Zoom no not at all but when implemented in the right shoes it works.

 

[deezyvsop]

Originally Posted by ldea

Nike wants to give people options. Some people don't like cushioning that's too responsive while others love it. Sure lunar probably costs less to make, and lunarfoam shoes are overpriced, but if it was all about money, Nike would stick lunar into every shoe.

Oh come on, it's all about the money. When we're talking numbers about who likes Zoom and Lunar, it's probably a big majority whowant full Zoom or all Zoom and no Lunar. I'm not saying it as fact obviously, but if we're saying conspiracy, it seems like Lunar breaks down quickly,much quicker than Zoom, which leads to people needing to buy more product. Consumers buying more product is exactly what any business wants.

They only "give people options" so people have the illusion of choice and variety. To reach a wider audience and expand their target market, forwhat? So consumers will buy more product. Think about the idea of Zoom insoles, or the removable Air pods in the Jordan XXI and XX2. There's a reasonthey don't sell Zoom insoles by themselves. I'll take a stab at it, probably because overall shoe sales will go down. It's a dangerous idea,because why buy a new pair of shoes when the cushioning gives, when you can just buy new cushioning replacements?

 

[joejoebob2099]

xlebroniv23, sorry i didnt mean crappy.. i just meant non-"statement level" product


but anyways, i dont know how many times i've heard .. if only the hyperdunk had zoom in the forefoot, it would be one of the greatest ball shoes of alltime.

 

[gswhoopz]

I agree with this thread.

 

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by xlebroniv23

I find it funny you call the Soldier 3 a "crappy lower tier" shoe when your calling Lunar crap and they have zoom?
Ask anyone if soldiers are crap and you'l get a no. Buts thats beside the point.
Lunar is not a bad cushioning I just think it shouldn't be used for basketball. It works fine when you are getting a new pair every game ex: Kobe and other Pro's but it's not designed to take miles a miles especially when it is used only in the heel or forefoot. I run every day and the Lunar Trainers/Racers are the best running shoes I've ever had. In the case of these shoes the whole shoe is Lunar and it is really thick compared to that used in the Kobes/HD's. Am I saying Lunar is better than Zoom no not at all but when implemented in the right shoes it works.

actually, the lunar trainer and racer only have a wedge of lunarlite. its similar to what you see on a cleat where its thick in the heel and thinsout towards the forefoot. that bright yellow material is nothing more than dyed phylon. basically nike threw a slab of lunar in the shoe and colored the phylonhousing to hype it up.

 

[briannnnn]

It's all planned obsolescence.

 

[xlebroniv23]

Originally Posted by mt3130

Originally Posted by xlebroniv23

I find it funny you call the Soldier 3 a "crappy lower tier" shoe when your calling Lunar crap and they have zoom?
Ask anyone if soldiers are crap and you'l get a no. Buts thats beside the point.
Lunar is not a bad cushioning I just think it shouldn't be used for basketball. It works fine when you are getting a new pair every game ex: Kobe and other Pro's but it's not designed to take miles a miles especially when it is used only in the heel or forefoot. I run every day and the Lunar Trainers/Racers are the best running shoes I've ever had. In the case of these shoes the whole shoe is Lunar and it is really thick compared to that used in the Kobes/HD's. Am I saying Lunar is better than Zoom no not at all but when implemented in the right shoes it works.

actually, the lunar trainer and racer only have a wedge of lunarlite. its similar to what you see on a cleat where its thick in the heel and thins out towards the forefoot. that bright yellow material is nothing more than dyed phylon. basically nike threw a slab of lunar in the shoe and colored the phylon housing to hype it up.

I'm not saying the whole yellow part is lunar lol but its more than what is in the ball shoes

 

[vocaldigital23]

Have any of you ever thought to yourself "Man, these shoes are heavy." when playing ball. Or "I could be a lot faster right now if my shoes were2oz lighter!". Ok, maybe with the Lebron IV, but in general it seems like a lot of hype. Honestly I might as well lift a little more weight since I amplaying to exercise in the first place. LOL

 

[cutepoison]

interesting ~

 

[cbfpunch]

i definitely felt the weight in the VC3s.. then again that was full-length shox. i agree with kobe, lunar ain't bad, but i'll always prefer zoom overit.

 

[zju]

Lunar Trainer/Racers FTW!!!
Truth is weight can be a big factor when goes to road running/racing, however not that much to do with balling......

 

[thegggame]

yeah good thing i never liked my USA's. straight gimmicks and scam. how they look is

but other than being light, shoe is trash.

 

[juschiang]

Maybe by using a full-length zoom air unit, the Hyperdunk wouldn't have been able to achieve its weight target and claim it's the lightestbasketball shoe ever and same goes for ZK4.

Another theory is that similar to Shox & IPS, Nike HAS to use lunar foam to justify all the R&D cost sunk into the project. Nobody is in the businessto lose money and you have to reach a certain revenue target (not just break even) and NPV positive for any investment you do and this is no different. I'd say the optimal application is in running shoes but they might not have been enough to offset the $$$ that went into the project so some genius decidedto use even MORE resource in marketing and development to adopt this technology into basketball applications.

No matter which theory is more accurate (I think they may both be valid), I'd say once they reach a point where marginal return is neutral (or negative),that'd be the end of lunar foam. It would be interesting to see how long that might be though at least in the context of basketball applications (I thinkthey'll always be there for running/X-training applications).

 

[blackcat23mj]

i agree, lighter right...yet they still charge an arm and a leg when they are using lighter material (synthetic leather over leather, so why do the shoes costthe same?) shady!!

 

[ny giants 11]

If Lunar is lighter than phylon, why doesnt nike just encapsulate full zoom into a lunar midsole?

Hmmm...

 

[starbury03]

Nike? Shady business? Not looking out for the consumer?

Nah. I refuse to believe it.

 

[dunkadelic2k3]

Originally Posted by juschiang


Maybe by using a full-length zoom air unit, the Hyperdunk wouldn't have been able to achieve its weight target and claim it's the lightest basketball shoe ever and same goes for ZK4.

Another theory is that similar to Shox & IPS, Nike HAS to use lunar foam to justify all the R&D cost sunk into the project. Nobody is in the business to lose money and you have to reach a certain revenue target (not just break even) and NPV positive for any investment you do and this is no different. I'd say the optimal application is in running shoes but they might not have been enough to offset the $$$ that went into the project so some genius decided to use even MORE resource in marketing and development to adopt this technology into basketball applications.

No matter which theory is more accurate (I think they may both be valid), I'd say once they reach a point where marginal return is neutral (or negative), that'd be the end of lunar foam. It would be interesting to see how long that might be though at least in the context of basketball applications (I think they'll always be there for running/X-training applications).

I agree completely. Nike has to use it in their high-end products to justify the R&D that went into it. Then after a couple of years when thecosts have been recouped, they will begin to faze it out like they are doing/did with Shox and IPS.

My question to Nike is, if Lunar foam is so great, then why do they only use it in the forefoot and not the heel?

 

[joejoebob2099]

research and development? they didnt even come up with it, nasa did.. they just used it. any r&d should have shown it does not provide'uncompromised' cushioning as they say.. there is definately some compromise

My question to Nike is, if Lunar foam is so great, then why do they only use it in the forefoot and not the heel?


good point. if anything, people would want a responsive feel in the forefoot and an absorptive feel in the heel.
but its probably b/c the heel experiences higher impact forces.. that zoom air can handle, and lunar foam probably cannot. which kind of shows its not as goodin terms of cushioning ability.