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Official NBA OFF-SEASON Thread - 2011: Free Agency Dec. 9th
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by Bert.,
- Start date
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Maybe you don't take scale into account. I definitely do. A million dollars a year to be an uneducated athlete? Why do you think so many of these idiots end up being bankrupt? Exactly that reason, because they're uneducated. I'm not saying there aren't intelligent people in sports, but they are definitely in the minority in comparison to the majority of the bafoons.Originally Posted by CP1708
You people riding on Stern's nuts and the owners as well are beyond stupid.
Seriously, buy a @#$%^& clue. It must be so intense watching Mark Cuban sit in a chair. I know personally I LOVE watching Jerry Buss sit courtside, oooohhhh that's why I tune in.
I guess all of you go to your jobs and just hope and pray that your bosses reduce your pay greatly, you probably back those VP's all the way don't you?That's what you're doing right here, you are rooting for the business decision makers, the VP's the CEO's and the like to take away wages, give no raises, pay less money, while they do what? STUFF THEIR POCKETS YOU TARDS.WHY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY would anyone back the God damn owners?My God you guys are thick.
Friggin incredible.
If you don't hold the same principles about money as I do, that's fine. But at the end of the day, if the NBA players wanted to go make money elsewhere, they would. But the NBA is the holy grail. It's what every ball player thrives for. Same with the NFL, MLB, and NHL. You want to be on the big stage. You don't want to stand up for labor negotiations? Don't be apart of the league, play in Greece and get thrown crap at you every other game.
It's not that I don't want basketball back, I'm miserable missing all the SL games and now pre-season.
The owners want change, the NBA nearly isn't as profitable as many other leagues, and now's the time they want to do it. At the proposed 10%, that's a huge paycut? Again, taking into consideration scale, a 20 million dollar contract is still 18 million. An 1 million dollar contract is still 800,000. You trying to tell me you can't live off of 800,000? Most Americans live off that in a lifetime.
I'm not "rooting," for anyone. I never said anything that I was pro-owners, or anti-players, all I said was the hate was unwarranted.
Again, you get downsized in a corporation, you get a nice severance package. I'm backing what would be the best product. Do I think the NBA product is at it's best right now? No. Do I think downsizing player salaries and introducing other particulars into the CBA will help? Yes. Do I think a flex-hard cap would help? Yes.
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Don't bite the hand that feeds you, plain and simple.
big j 33
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So basically, bend over and take it NBA players.. and kiss the feet of the infallible owners everyday too.
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Originally Posted by JapanAir21
This is dumb as $$%!.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, plain and simple.
This is such a slave mentality
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Why are you so angry at the players? Let us not forget it's the owners giving out these max deals who created this monster. If the NBA isn't profitable, how is the Players fault and not the Commissioner and team General Managers?Originally Posted by JapanAir21
Maybe you don't take scale into account. I definitely do. A million dollars a year to be an uneducated athlete? Why do you think so many of these idiots end up being bankrupt? Exactly that reason, because they're uneducated. I'm not saying there aren't intelligent people in sports, but they are definitely in the minority in comparison to the majority of the bafoons.Originally Posted by CP1708
You people riding on Stern's nuts and the owners as well are beyond stupid.
Seriously, buy a @#$%^& clue. It must be so intense watching Mark Cuban sit in a chair. I know personally I LOVE watching Jerry Buss sit courtside, oooohhhh that's why I tune in.
I guess all of you go to your jobs and just hope and pray that your bosses reduce your pay greatly, you probably back those VP's all the way don't you?That's what you're doing right here, you are rooting for the business decision makers, the VP's the CEO's and the like to take away wages, give no raises, pay less money, while they do what? STUFF THEIR POCKETS YOU TARDS.WHY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY would anyone back the God damn owners?My God you guys are thick.
Friggin incredible.
If you don't hold the same principles about money as I do, that's fine. But at the end of the day, if the NBA players wanted to go make money elsewhere, they would. But the NBA is the holy grail. It's what every ball player thrives for. Same with the NFL, MLB, and NHL. You want to be on the big stage. You don't want to stand up for labor negotiations? Don't be apart of the league, play in Greece and get thrown crap at you every other game.
It's not that I don't want basketball back, I'm miserable missing all the SL games and now pre-season.
The owners want change, the NBA nearly isn't as profitable as many other leagues, and now's the time they want to do it. At the proposed 10%, that's a huge paycut? Again, taking into consideration scale, a 20 million dollar contract is still 18 million. An 1 million dollar contract is still 800,000. You trying to tell me you can't live off of 800,000? Most Americans live off that in a lifetime.
I'm not "rooting," for anyone. I never said anything that I was pro-owners, or anti-players, all I said was the hate was unwarranted.
Again, you get downsized in a corporation, you get a nice severance package. I'm backing what would be the best product. Do I think the NBA product is at it's best right now? No. Do I think downsizing player salaries and introducing other particulars into the CBA will help? Yes. Do I think a flex-hard cap would help? Yes.
And you say all the owners want is a 10% pay cut? Hardly. It's much more than that (roughly 25%-35%) You make many generalizations about the players not being money savvy and what not. Why would they agree to take less money than they are worth? Seems pretty money savvy to me. Go play somewhere else? Why should they. The NBA is the most player centered league.
I respect your position, but I just don't see how you reached it.
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MIKE LOWERY
formerly chuck finster
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Originally Posted by JapanAir21
This is dumb as $$%!.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, plain and simple.
JA, how can you call NBA player uneducated, and then give reasoning like you are right now? You sound RIDICULOUS.
Do you know how many extremely smart people I know that make bags of nuts for money? Do you?
The brain waves of these players don't mean a God damn thing. It's a skill. They possess a skill that many of us simply do not. THEY are the product we all want to watch. These 400 players are the best of the best out there, any 30 rich morons can buy a team, but not anybody can play at an NBA level. Do you comprehend this?
NOBODY is saying the players should earn 95% of the revenue or anything, should they scale back a touch? YES. But bend to what the owners want? NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Guess what JA, I hope you're sitting for this, no matter what happens with this deal, no matter what, the Owners will STILL @#$% UP THEIR TEAMS. And yet, they will have "fixed" the league with this deal.
Do you think that some magical percentage number will suddenly make the Bobcats good? Isiah will then become a better GM? The Suns will stop @#$%^&* up draft picks? The Warriors will get great? Really? Cuz the percents change?
If you believe that, don't come back to NT anymore, I'm serious right here, don't. You are being a fool if you believe this high and mighty bs about "thankful to make 800K" I guess college players should be "thankful" to get a FREE education, all the while the NCAA makes BILLIONS of dollars. Well, while dudes make 800K, or 18 mil or whatever, the league makes BILLIONS off them. So thankful? The league should be thankful that a rival league don't get the money up and sway these players away from the NBA, and pay them top dollar to play the same game. That's what the league should be thankful for. Stern and the owners run things the way they do because nobody will attempt to stop them. These same dumb @#$%^ dump millions and millions of dollars into the WNBA, and then cry about they're "losing money" in the NBA?
What the @#$% ever.
JA, you really need to sit back and look at the way it works a little more closely. For you alone I hope they cancel the season so you can sit there not watching ball, backing a bunch of idiot billionaires while you witness all these talented players with a limited shelf life age by the day getting closer to the end of their primes by the ages of 33-34-35 years old. You and me can earn that money til we 65 years old, they will be done with their profession before most people get married and raise kids. But yeah, "thankful"
Do you know how many extremely smart people I know that make bags of nuts for money? Do you?
The brain waves of these players don't mean a God damn thing. It's a skill. They possess a skill that many of us simply do not. THEY are the product we all want to watch. These 400 players are the best of the best out there, any 30 rich morons can buy a team, but not anybody can play at an NBA level. Do you comprehend this?
NOBODY is saying the players should earn 95% of the revenue or anything, should they scale back a touch? YES. But bend to what the owners want? NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Guess what JA, I hope you're sitting for this, no matter what happens with this deal, no matter what, the Owners will STILL @#$% UP THEIR TEAMS. And yet, they will have "fixed" the league with this deal.
JA, you really need to sit back and look at the way it works a little more closely. For you alone I hope they cancel the season so you can sit there not watching ball, backing a bunch of idiot billionaires while you witness all these talented players with a limited shelf life age by the day getting closer to the end of their primes by the ages of 33-34-35 years old. You and me can earn that money til we 65 years old, they will be done with their profession before most people get married and raise kids. But yeah, "thankful"
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Rashard Lewis: "The owner gave me the deal...I'm sitting at home and my agent calls me, saying, 'I got a max on the table.' I'm not going to sit there and say, 'Naw, that's too much. Go out there and negotiate $20 or $30 [million] less.' "
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ESPN needs to work out a deal with FIBA for ESPN3. I can't go a full season without watching professional basketball at some level.
dacomeup
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This is such a slave mentalityOriginally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick
Originally Posted by JapanAir21
This is dumb as $$%!.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, plain and simple.
Exactly. I was trying my hardest not to go there. Let's not go against massa's word, as we build up his brand and his business. We have no rights not to want to give up money, financial security, etc. I can't fathom siding with these billionaires.
lawdog1
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^^^ I don't disagree that the owners have played a large hand in the financial trouble they're in -- at least some of the teams -- with dumb contracts, etc. But at the end of the day, its still the owners that are responsible for the teams existing. Without the owner, the players have no place to play, and no coaches, trainers, support staff, etc to assist them. I personally don't think the owners should be obligated to bear the responsiblity for all of that at a loss. They should be able to make a profit from running a team or at least break even. If they can't do that under the current CBA, even if they helped create the problems, I can't blame them for wanting to change it. The owners don't run teams as a public service to the fans -- its a business.
If I'm running a business and I'm starting to lose money, I would want the right to make certain changes to right the ship. I wouldn't want to be told, "well, you're part of the reason we're in this position now, so you need to just live with it." If I'm still the one signing everyone else's checks, I've earned the right to make decisions that I think are in the best interest of the business -- even if I've made dumb decisions before.
If I'm running a business and I'm starting to lose money, I would want the right to make certain changes to right the ship. I wouldn't want to be told, "well, you're part of the reason we're in this position now, so you need to just live with it." If I'm still the one signing everyone else's checks, I've earned the right to make decisions that I think are in the best interest of the business -- even if I've made dumb decisions before.
Perfectly understandable, but your employees are also the product. You losin money in the printer building business, you downsize, re-evaluate your workforce, lower overhead, and start again. These employees, ARE the printers. So you can't just wipe the slate clean.
And to an extent, you are right, an owner makes a mistake, it happens, shouldn't be held against him forever, but when they CONTINUALLY do so, then that's on them. And that is the case here. Look no further than a Donald Sterling, making plenty of money for himself, yet continually delivers crap product. You tellin me he doesn't yet know that, or realize it? He knows he'll make his money regardless, why try and actually improve anything? THAT'S a problem. And he isn't alone in doing that. THAT'S a problem. And Stern simply keeps on trotting these fools out there instead of doing something to THEM. Afterall, it's Stern's PRODUCT they are @#$%^&* with. Right?
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Valid points all around except the biting the hand that feeds you haha.
I feel exactly how Rashard Lewis feels. Its the %%@%$+# owners/gms that are giving these horrible contracts out. How are they trying to make new rules against it? Its like trying to come up with something to protect themselves FROM themselves. Smh.
I feel exactly how Rashard Lewis feels. Its the %%@%$+# owners/gms that are giving these horrible contracts out. How are they trying to make new rules against it? Its like trying to come up with something to protect themselves FROM themselves. Smh.
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Isn't that what they do when they release players, trade them to free up Salary cap, raise ticket prices, increase the price of memorabilia?
And I forgot who but someone in here said something like: "Come on guys it makes no sense for the owner to make less money than the employees
1) If you think any owner has less money than these players you're kidding yourself.
2) If I work at Borders for a year at minimum wage and make $5,000 a year and they go out of business and are millions of dollars in debt that's their fault not mine. And that doesn't mean I made more money than them.
I just feel these owners have to realize nothing is a sure investment. That's why we have the draft. If your players suck and you lose games thus dropping attendance guess what? You get to pick from the top 5 players in the country. Some owners are smart and make the right moves and some well.....aren't. I mean hell the real idea would be to delete half the teams to only major markets if you want to guarantee product but now you've lowered the talent, lowered your audience, cause how many causal fans were in OKC before they had a team? Let's be real sports are more fun to watch when you have a team to root for. So bottom line is you're a big business act like one and spend wisely. If other teams want to throw money at R. Lewis then let em do it and you build your team a different way, don't overbid and be mad he wasn't worth what YOU offered him.
big j 33
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Meeting just let out.. no deal but they're coming back tomorrow 10 a.m.
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You can call it whatever the hell you want, if you're getting paid 20 million a year to play a sport, that's not slave-+!$#.Originally Posted by DaComeUP
Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick
This is such a slave mentality
Exactly. I was trying my hardest not to go there. Let's not go against massa's word, as we build up his brand and his business. We have no rights not to want to give up money, financial security, etc. I can't fathom siding with these billionaires.
JA, how can you call NBA player uneducated, and then give reasoning like you are right now? You sound RIDICULOUS.
You honestly think the majority of NBA players are any smarter than your average Joe Schmoe who gets his AA at a community college? Some are, most aren't.
The brain waves of these players don't mean a God damn thing. It's a skill. They possess a skill that many of us simply do not. THEY are the product we all want to watch. These 400 players are the best of the best out there, any 30 rich morons can buy a team, but not anybody can play at an NBA level. Do you comprehend this?
So if they have the talent, why the hell are they complaining about making millions of dollars a year? Most of the issue is about BRI and salary cap. Salary cap, like I said earlier, really is an indirect cut to the players. BRI, none of that would be possible without the owners putting their money into the stadium, the organization. I never said the owners aren't at fault, yeah they'll still make stupid moves, but how many real on-court decisions are made by the OWNERS? That's what GMs are for.
NOBODY is saying the players should earn 95% of the revenue or anything, should they scale back a touch? YES. But bend to what the owners want? NOOOOOOOOOOOO
How exactly are they bending over? And what leverage do the players have? As it stands, what I hear is basically 10% rollback, players giving up some of the BRI, and changes to the CBA itself. How is that bending over? Did I ever say the players should just give up all their salary and play for chump change?
And back to the slavery BS yall want to bring up... Being a millionaire playing a sport you love, or going to college for 10+ years and working unbelievably hard and committing your life to a practice that ball players earn in a year? It's so unbalanced it's ridiculous. Yes I'm one of those cynics that hate that players make so much damn money.
Guess what JA, I hope you're sitting for this, no matter what happens with this deal, no matter what, the Owners will STILL @#$% UP THEIR TEAMS. And yet, they will have "fixed" the league with this deal.Do you think that some magical percentage number will suddenly make the Bobcats good? Isiah will then become a better GM? The Suns will stop @#$%^&* up draft picks? The Warriors will get great? Really? Cuz the percents change?If you believe that, don't come back to NT anymore, I'm serious right here, don't. You are being a fool if you believe this high and mighty bs about "thankful to make 800K" I guess college players should be "thankful" to get a FREE education, all the while the NCAA makes BILLIONS of dollars. Well, while dudes make 800K, or 18 mil or whatever, the league makes BILLIONS off them. So thankful? The league should be thankful that a rival league don't get the money up and sway these players away from the NBA, and pay them top dollar to play the same game. That's what the league should be thankful for. Stern and the owners run things the way they do because nobody will attempt to stop them. These same dumb @#$%^ dump millions and millions of dollars into the WNBA, and then cry about they're "losing money" in the NBA? What the @#$% ever.
How many owners truly screw up their own team? Donald Sterling, that's a given, but a team like Minnesota? That's all on the backs of the GMs. No, things like BRI won't change anything on-court, I'm not that stupid. But the CBA changes will. People will always argue about money, and what they think they are due. But it's the CBA rules that are the key to the new CBA deal. Things like letting Ron Artest sign a contract with the Lakers for a pretty good amount when they are heavily over the salary cap. I'd rather have a hard cap than what we have now. The luxury tax is nothing for guys like Cuban, and it'd probably be to my teams disadvantage, but if it meant more well-rounded teams, I'm for it. And college players don't get a damn education. How often those dudes in class? College players are a whole different league. Most of those players don't make it on the big stage. I'm for players getting paid in NCAA, they're getting it behind the scenes frequently anyways. Why do you think that someone HASN'T taken away talent? Why do you think other players like Childress came back? Because there isn't anything better than the NBA right now. That's why you don't see cats going overseas unless they have NO OTHER CHOICE.
I just want to know how the players are being mistreated. That's what I want to know. Just because the owners are supposedly making tons of money?
I'm on the fence on whether they make/lose money, but I DO believe a lot of small market teams do lose money. Is that the players fault? Is that the owners fault? Well, with a better CBA, hopefully that is fixable.
Don't even bother answering unless you have a good answer for this; what would you do to make things better? A better product? Forget about money, because people will always argue about money. I hate the fact the players argue so much about money, but that's just me.
Okay, the players and owners disagree about money. But, without the owners, where do the players stand? In a hellhole. Say for whatever reason the owners wanted to just go out and have a lockout for a year. Players frantically run-rampant looking for teams to play with overseas where the conditions won't be good. The players wouldn't be ANYWHERE without the owners. You can say that about the owners, but how many of them are losing money?
That's the "billion," dollar question.
lawdog1
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I hear you. But there are 30 teams in the league. So for every Sterling, there's probably one or two other owners out there who are legitimately trying to turn out a good product and are having a hard time doing so without losing money. Should they be punished and handcuffed because a few owners are douchebags? Coincidentally, by the way, its my understanding that Sterling is not one of the hard-liners among the owners. He wants a deal to get done. Probably because he does make money and is likely to make even more because he had a cash cow by the name of Blake Griffin drop in his lap.Originally Posted by CP1708
Perfectly understandable, but your employees are also the product. You losin money in the printer building business, you downsize, re-evaluate your workforce, lower overhead, and start again. These employees, ARE the printers. So you can't just wipe the slate clean.
And to an extent, you are right, an owner makes a mistake, it happens, shouldn't be held against him forever, but when they CONTINUALLY do so, then that's on them. And that is the case here. Look no further than a Donald Sterling, making plenty of money for himself, yet continually delivers crap product. You tellin me he doesn't yet know that, or realize it? He knows he'll make his money regardless, why try and actually improve anything? THAT'S a problem. And he isn't alone in doing that. THAT'S a problem. And Stern simply keeps on trotting these fools out there instead of doing something to THEM. Afterall, it's Stern's PRODUCT they are @#$%^&* with. Right?But yeah, let's blame the players, they're dumb.
And what exactly could Sterling do to the owners? Fine them for signing players to irresponsbile contracts? That would go over well. "Hey, owner, I know you're putting 100s of millions of dollars into this league already, but I think your business decisions suck, so I'm going to take even more money from you." And as far as actually trying to push owners out, there's not much Stern can do. And that doesn't have anything to do with Stern, but the NBA by-laws, I believe. Stern has been asked point blank about trying to get rid of Donald Sterling (I know this because I'm a Clipper fan) and said, under league rules, unless Sterling loses the resources to run the team or is convicted of some kind of serious crime, there's nothing the league can't force Sterling to sell the team. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some accountability for owners for the things they do, but I don't seen a real effective way of penalizing them.
And I never said anything was the players' fault. I just happen to see things from the owners perspective more than most.
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Explains it.
I never understood this argument. Like professional sports is a government sponsored program that taxes us higher each year
And guess what if you take away 100 million dollar contracts you have less people trying to be in the NBA. Look at the MLS. If they were handing out A-Rod contracts there would be kids playing soccer on every block every season. Asking if you got the new Nike Beckham 7's. But they can't? You know why they can't? Cause few people care about MLS and those that care aren't gonna pay OD prices for tickets/jerseys thus making the amount of $$ a team can give a player in a contract less.
I only took High School economics for a semester but even I understand this
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Why does it matter if they're uneducated? Players didn't get signed to solve math equations, they got signed to win games.Originally Posted by JapanAir21
Maybe you don't take scale into account. I definitely do. A million dollars a year to be an uneducated athlete? Why do you think so many of these idiots end up being bankrupt? Exactly that reason, because they're uneducated. I'm not saying there aren't intelligent people in sports, but they are definitely in the minority in comparison to the majority of the bafoons.Originally Posted by CP1708
You people riding on Stern's nuts and the owners as well are beyond stupid.
Seriously, buy a @#$%^& clue. It must be so intense watching Mark Cuban sit in a chair. I know personally I LOVE watching Jerry Buss sit courtside, oooohhhh that's why I tune in.
I guess all of you go to your jobs and just hope and pray that your bosses reduce your pay greatly, you probably back those VP's all the way don't you?That's what you're doing right here, you are rooting for the business decision makers, the VP's the CEO's and the like to take away wages, give no raises, pay less money, while they do what? STUFF THEIR POCKETS YOU TARDS.WHY, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY would anyone back the God damn owners?My God you guys are thick.
Friggin incredible.
If you don't hold the same principles about money as I do, that's fine. But at the end of the day, if the NBA players wanted to go make money elsewhere, they would. But the NBA is the holy grail. It's what every ball player thrives for. Same with the NFL, MLB, and NHL. You want to be on the big stage. You don't want to stand up for labor negotiations? Don't be apart of the league, play in Greece and get thrown crap at you every other game.
It's not that I don't want basketball back, I'm miserable missing all the SL games and now pre-season.
The owners want change, the NBA nearly isn't as profitable as many other leagues, and now's the time they want to do it. At the proposed 10%, that's a huge paycut? Again, taking into consideration scale, a 20 million dollar contract is still 18 million. An 1 million dollar contract is still 800,000. You trying to tell me you can't live off of 800,000? Most Americans live off that in a lifetime.
I'm not "rooting," for anyone. I never said anything that I was pro-owners, or anti-players, all I said was the hate was unwarranted.
Again, you get downsized in a corporation, you get a nice severance package. I'm backing what would be the best product. Do I think the NBA product is at it's best right now? No. Do I think downsizing player salaries and introducing other particulars into the CBA will help? Yes. Do I think a flex-hard cap would help? Yes.
That 10% you referenced is huge when you realized a single percentage point (in reference to the BRI) is equal to about $40+ million. So over the lifetime of a new BRI deal, that would be in the range of billions of dollars. That is huge, not some minuscule figure you are trying to make it out to be. The players have already proposed to go down from 57% to 54% (and willing to go down to 52% by all accounts), which is a $280+ million give back for next season alone.
And the owners want to knock the players BRI % down to the mid-40s for this deal.
Edit:
David Stern just mentioned that revenue sharing could quadriple in 2014 from the current $60 million to $240 million. That should help the owners, but I'm sure the owners want to rape and pillage the uneducated players more first.
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Their education levels have nothing to do with this. The players have a talent for which there is a ton of demand. This is how capitalism works.
But yet they are the ones who are playing with the dollars and cents of the CBA.
It's not like the owners will completely gut them of their livelihoods, and that's what makes me sick.
I have no sympathy for anyone making millions of dollars a year to play a sport. None whatsoever.
Except with a proposed team by team hard cap and $2 billion league wide cap, the owners are gutting the players.
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No more info on today's meeting?