***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[dacomeup]

What if the group doesn't want to be convinced?

What if they don't want a solution that isn't an implementation of their zero sum view of the workplace/opportunity (when women were being housewives, the world was better for men)?

Obama's speech was questioning that value system.

It’s the party’s job to convince them. These people have likely voted Democrat before. Is the alternative just to let them go R forever?

And I think that questioning their value system works better in a humanities class in a college classroom, don’t have as much faith in it working in this context. But I’m just a guy posting on NT.

 

[yobyellav]

Uhm are you living in a different reality?

Trump's campaign is going good. It's a 50-50 race, just got some good polls in Nevada, Pennsylvania. Things are looking pretty good for Trump.



You can keep calling him racist...but his share of the black vote keeps increasing.

Cleary there's an audience of black people that don't agree or don't care.

Naw I’m in this one. Just don’t agree with you. For every poll that says one thing, there’s another that says the opposite. More people are calling him out on lies, from news sites to other republicans. The same goes for his rambling speeches filled with nonsense.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Naw I’m in this one. Just don’t agree with you. For every poll that says one thing, there’s another that says the opposite. More people are calling him out on lies, from news sites to other republicans. The same goes for his rambling speeches filled with nonsense.

1. it's not just polls it's actual election results. his black support increased from 2016 to 2020 election,
he got more black votes than any republican president in like 30 years.

2. that's why you use polling averages. it's a pretty consistent result, trump has more black and latino male support.
now maybe you think these people will stay home on election day, (that's def possible) but it's not an illusion.

if you're disagreeing with this you are disagreeing with observable reality.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The real question is the shift in black vote a Trump phenomenon, or a real durable political realignment.


90% black vote for the rest of time is probably unsustainable.


Conservative parties in every other western countries are able to win the votes of minorities.
At some point you'd think Republicans would be able to do the same.

 

[essential1]

It's a personality phenomenon.

Trump being a pop culture personality before politics and understanding how media works in a way a lot of other Republicans do not (hell even most Democratic members as well). Regardless Trump still is viewed as opulence and wealth, which resonates across racial and class lines to some extent (why beats the hell out of me outside of the Steineck quote from decades ago).

If it was JD Vance as the presidential candidate, or a Ted Cruz, or Nikki Haley, it'd be back to within MOE of how the bloc traditionally votes.

Also it's the same personality phenomenon of Obama in the opposite direction, and why he was low to mid 90s with black vote.
Mid to high 80s support has been the norm for Dukakis, Bill & Hillary & Biden. No phenomenon outside of Obama isn't running and was the most effective populist politician since Reagan.

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[yobyellav]

1. it's not just polls it's actual election results. his black support increased from 2016 to 2020 election,
he got more black votes than any republican president in like 30 years.

2. that's why you use polling averages. it's a pretty consistent result, trump has more black and latino male support.
now maybe you think these people will stay home on election day, (that's def possible) but it's not an illusion.

if you're disagreeing with this you are disagreeing with observable reality.

I’m disagreeing with you saying it’s going good for him. You know when he “got more black votes…” he actually lost that election. And in it, the winner got more votes than any candidate ever. He’s done nothing to change that besides staging a coup and become a convicted felon. And also lose the support of nearly everyone who served under him.

 

[dacomeup]

The real question is the shift in black vote a Trump phenomenon, or a real durable political realignment.


90% black vote for the rest of time is probably unsustainable.


Conservative parties in every other western countries are able to win the votes of minorities.
At some point you'd think Republicans would be able to do the same.

I think it’s largely a phenomenon. But I do think it’s an issue that the Dems have to figure out going forward. Like you mentioned, gender is turning into the most polarized characteristics of voters. I’ve been reading a lot about this lately and I think this is a big societal risk here, not just for politics.

So I think it’s a phenomenon that poses a larger threat if the Dems don’t figure it out.

 

[gry60]

It’s the party’s job to convince them.

The Democratic party is not hiding its platform, and Kamal will talk about it as long as you let her. This minority of Black voters simply doesn't like the fact that she will be the one implementing it. The idea that Democrats can't convince those voters refuses to acknowledge what those folks are saying, explicitly or otherwise.

It's similar to the discussion about the viability of Buttigieg as a presidential candidate. I don't know why the importance of voters' value system is being dismissed when they're literally telling you they don't see themselves being led by someone they consider beneath them.

This is why complaining about what Obama said makes little sense to me. Those voters have already rejected the messenger.

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[DCAllAfrican]

. I’ve been reading a lot about this lately and I think this is a big societal risk here, not just for politics.

So I think it’s a phenomenon that poses a larger threat if the Dems don’t figure it out.

Can you speak more on the , "big societal risk" point that you made? What was said to be the potential risks here?

I come in peace.

 

[starfox070]

I won’t excuse the democrats on messaging, but the fact one party whole platform is misinformation and lies to the point we have debates with no fact checking and are upset about fact checking. Will always make messaging hard.

Republicans know most Americans are dumb and they can play on that. I say that with my whole chest most Americans are very very very dumb. Most in this thread are smarter than like 80% of the electorate and that’s sad.

 

[Public Enemy]

Black Culture Discussion Thread

niketalk.com

All the "why are you making this an issue when it isn't?" people can chime in now

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[starfox070]

What really scares me the lack of unbiased information too.

Main stream media does so much both siding it’s annoying.

Then you have online which X owner is in the tank for trump so is zuck. Meaning you think those algorithms aren’t going to make it seem like things are one way or lie or suppress stories.

Elon already did and probably post do not vote post to black peoples and racist post to white folks all in an effort to get trump in office.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

@ Carved out of the desert

 

[mplsdunk]

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[gry60]

It's just a cop out to pretend "oh.these people are bad and beyond convincing"

"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place"

It's not a cop out to recognize that some people are driven by irrational beliefs, and asking Democrats to appeal to those beliefs would probably mean never let a woman run for the top office.

Lots of men are still uncomfortable with their partners making more money than them. Some won't even ride in their wife/gf's car if they're not driving. It's irrational, but Trump and the GOP appeal to that machismo mindset. They probably would've have had a better chance in the general with Nikki Haley, but they chose to send the message that women POTUS are not welcome. And if it weren't for their built-in electoral advantage, the share of people leaving the Republican party since it got taken over by their more extreme faction would've been more of a factor against them in this election.

The solution to bring back Black voters who feel the same way resides outside of electoral season. Some of them may change their mindset after they live through a successful Harris term and see that their reservations were unfounded; others may never change. In any case, nothing Democrats can say right now is likely to sway them in the short term.

 

[gry60]

I say that with my whole chest most Americans are very very very dumb.

What to know about the Hartford high school grad who can't read

Aleysha Ortiz said she was never taught to read or write — despite attending schools in Hartford since she was 6. Here's what to know.

ctmirror.org

And she's enrolled in college.

To be fair, the school system really screwed her over (and she is suing them), but think about the thousands of HS graduates who don't have a problem with not knowing ****...

 

[jpzx]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place"

irrational does not mean random.

there beliefs derive from the way the two parties present themselves. democrats can change the way they present themselves.

It's not a cop out to recognize that some people are driven by irrational beliefs, and asking Democrats to appeal to those beliefs would probably mean never let a woman run for the top office.

no it wouldn't, you can run as a woman and you can present yourself as a party that believes men are an important part of the coalition. that like half the reason they chose tim walz.

the reason i think it's a cop out, because rather than doing the hard work of figuring out how to appeal to these people. it's way easier to just write them off totally.

Lots of men are still uncomfortable with their partners making more money than them. Some won't even ride in their wife/gf's car if they're not driving. It's irrational, but Trump and the GOP appeal to that machismo mindset. They probably would've have had a better chance in the general with Nikki Haley, but they chose to send the message that women POTUS are not welcome. And if it weren't for their built-in electoral advantage, the share of people leaving the Republican party since it got taken over by their more extreme faction would've been more of a factor against them in this election.

Irrational =/= random.
wanting purpose, wanting to fulfill gendered expectations, is a totally normal human behavior,
you can call it irrational, but most humans behave this way.

I don't know why men should/would be different.

In any case, nothing Democrats can say right now is likely to sway them in the short term.

learned helplessness. Democratic party became more feminine culturally from like 2016-2020, and it turns out some percentage men aren't into it.

these voters aren't acting randomly, they are responding to real messaging decisions by the democratic party.

if they change the messaging, they can appeal to these voters.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Political parties should make sure that [women/latino/black women/asian/ect] feel like a valued part of their coalition.


but when it becomes about men, or black men it's suddenly like "why, what's the point?"

 

[Public Enemy]