***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

Nobody is explicitly saying that but I've heard that from countless people in our community who felt betrayed by Obama because "he didn't do enough for us" like he had some magic wand to cure all our ills. I don't think that type of thinking is productive at all, he nor any president has autonomy. The low turnout in mid terms on a federal level has a lot more to do with direct policy as has been evidenced.

While I do place most of the blame at the feet on the opposition, there were some things that were well within President Obama's control where he capitulated without a fight.


It was his prerogative to bring in Wall Street people into his cabinet and he did that. He had the ability to hold TARP funds hostage in exchange for home owner relief and he did not do so. He had the political capital and Congressional majorities to demand a much larger stimulus and a serious jobs program. He could have used those stimulus funds to exert much more leverage on members of Congress. He could have used stimulus money to get working class people back in their feet in 2009 instead of letting them languish unemployed, hopeless and open to the tea party's siren song.

It was a bad look to make whole the stock owners, the banks and the managerial class and leave the workers and new home owners out in the cold. Conservatism, which had been routed in 2008, rallied. As soon as the well off were made whole, they regained the delusion that they were self made and thus over taxed. Those people joined forces with the now abandoned workers and formed the tea party.

In America, well off people, especially well of whites, see them selves as Randian supermen whose "talent" holds up the Earth. White working class folks see themselves as millionaires in waiting. That is how it is most of the time but in the first half of 2009, those delusions were shattered, a once in a generation window was open and President Obama did not ruthlessly exploit that window.

Seems like you wanted Obama to be a martyr for progressivism, instead of the unifier he campaigned as.

Even when he tried to be that person he was called an extremist. So what do you think the backlash would have if he did try to ram his agenda though without any compromise

Barrack Obama has literally had to be a superb president in most respects, just people (including liberals) to say he is doing a passable job

Sorry, Obama has disappointed me a lot, but I don't indulge in the "in the 2 years he had with a functioning Congress, before the white nationalist protesting on the National Mall took away his power, he should have done much more"

 

[Maximus Meridius]

This won't work either. Look at the tide Obama rode in on and within 2 years all this power was taken away from him by just one midterm

What you're advocating sounds more like "someone will save us" more than anything anyone else has said in this thread. So we put our money behind one candidate, then what?

White liberals just jump on board, all other minorities just fall in line? And what about Congress, or state elections, or local elections? How is that one candidate gonna effect change if people are asleep at the wheel for all the other elections

Or maybe black people should vote as often as possible in every election, no matter what it is for and try to swing every election towards the candidate that will do most for our community, or has the best policies. Every noticed that besides the rich, the only other groups that get their agenda taken seriously are groups that turnout for elections. See old people

And black folk can still throw money behind candidates of their choosing. Matter of fact rolling back citizen's united might make your plan more effect. But guess what, the two parties differ on that subject.

To be honest, no offense brah, but to me it is not a either or type situation. Failing to see nuance and just being dismissive to how the system works is not going to do anything

But I guess we'll just wait around until this "super candidate" comes along for the black community to get behind. That will do it

So going along with this same system is the solution? Black people still getting harassed and killed by cops. The court system is still a joke. Black people still take up half the prison population in America. Voting for the lesser evil doesn't work. We fought cuz we thought voting would work and it hasn't. I remember Tupac saying we need our own political party but the powers that be would probably kill that idea.

 

[rexanglorum]

Seems like you wanted Obama to be a martyr for progressivism, instead of the unifier he campaigned as.

Even when he tried to be that person he was called an extremist. So what do you think the backlash would have if he did try to ram his agenda though without any compromise

Barrack Obama has literally had to be a superb president in most respects, just people (including liberals) to say he is doing a passable job

Sorry, Obama has disappointed me a lot, but I don't indulge in the "in the 2 years he had with a functioning Congress, before the white nationalist protesting on the National Mall took away his power, he should have done much more"

Actually it was more like six months. However, in those critical first six months he could have done things differently. You make the bankers your wards and dependent on you for survival and you make workers whole. Instead he made bankers whole and tossed a narrow life line to workers. That is not smart politics.

trust me, I have my finger on the pulse of the white community. In early 2009, upper-middle class white people were losing their jobs in finance and their McMansions were underwater. White America was on the verge on burning its copies of Atlas Shrugged. The God of neoliberalism had appeared to have failed.

The Obama White House made it a priority to stabilize and the boost assets prices instead of wages and employment levels. The result is that banks, upper-middle class and upper class people were up and on their feet quickly and from this new position of strength, set up the tea party. In an act of arch cynicism, they invigorated the very workers, the white workers, who had been left behind by Obama and Geithner's "assets-first" policy.

Obama should not have been a martyr for progressivism, he should have and could have been a conqueror.

 

[MVP]

So going along with this same system is the solution? Black people still getting harassed and killed by cops. The court system is still a joke. Black people still take up half the prison population in America. Voting for the lesser evil doesn't work. We fought cuz we thought voting would work and it hasn't. I remember Tupac saying we need our own political party but the powers that be would probably kill that idea.

Well there Gabe been people in the past that were for the change like you are speaking of and they were all assassinated (JFK, Bobby Kennedy and MLK) and with the climate seemingly going backwards what makes you think THEY won't do it again?

 

[JonathanLegend]

His worst states are behind him he can still win...

http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-sanders-worst-states-behind/

 

[Master Zik]

Yo what if the GOP really did try to separate itself from Trump?

I can imagine if he became president elect they'd block him like they did Obama if they couldn't control him and if all those Republicans in the Senate and house get voted out the only other option are democrats who would do the same.

On the other side I'm loving Cruz telling Rep. they need to rally behind him and all of them hate him so much. They want to try and contest the nomination and just overlook Cruz and pick Paul Ryan or something?

 

[MVP]

I think it's going to happen either at or after the convention after Trump gets the nomination by masquerading as a conservative. They may send out somebody as a 3rd party candidate.

 

[Master Zik]

Wolf Blitzer just floated the idea of Rubio running on Trump's ticket as VP as a way for the party to back him.

If Rubio does that.

If Trump does it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yo what if the GOP really did try to separate itself from Trump?

I can imagine if he became president elect they'd block him like they did Obama if they couldn't control him and if all those Republicans in the Senate and house get voted out the only other option are democrats who would do the same.

On the other side I'm loving Cruz telling Rep. they need to rally behind him and all of them hate him so much. They want to try and contest the nomination and just overlook Cruz and pick Paul Ryan or something?

They wouldn't do that.

I can't remember what book it was but it was about how corporations exert their influence in world politics.

The key take away?

They don't look at politics in 4 year cycles. They look at it in 20-40 year cycles. Cooperations like Exxon that make up the republican elite will outlast any political movement, or candidate. and so why would they possibly destroy the republican party as we know it by plugging it into rebellion by stealing the nomination from Trump.


For what? For who?


Ted Cruz? Someone who will probably lose to Hilary in a landslide as?


Naah b. They will take this L, and wait for the next opportunity to tilt the balance of power further into their favour.


This idea that Kasich supports have that they will just change the rules on Trump and give it to Kasich. Pure delusion.
This idea Cruz supports have that the republicans in the senate will destroy the part to help Ted Cruz the person they loath? Pure Insanity.

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

His worst states are behind him he can still win...

he's not winning any states with sizable minority populations by 60%.


You're going to have to come to term with the fact that It's over.




unless Hilary gets arrested between now and the convention, its time to pack it in. the bern is over.

 

[rexanglorum]

he's not winning any states with sizable minority populations by 60%.


You're going to have to come to term with the fact that It's over.




unless Hilary gets arrested between now and the convention, its time to pack it in. the bern is over.

Hillary Clinton has done very well in the South, Sanders has done well in New England, they have split in the Great Lakes region. It's time for the West Coast and the inland west and the mid Atlantic to have their say.

If Sanders quits now the DNC, the DLC and Clinton will be able to tell themselves that Sanders and the progressives are just a small minority of trouble makers. Instead, we will make Clinton work, she will have to run a national campaign and even if she does win the nomination it will be with a bare majority of pledged delegates.

Progressives need to be to the Democratic Party the way Evangelicals are to the GOP, send the message that our faction is indispensable.



BTW, those who say that Bernie's campaign will harm Clinton in the general need to shut up. Competitive primaries in all 50 states will help the Democratic nominee. Primaries force younger voters or voters who moved recently to register and find their polling place. Most Sanders supporters would vote for Clinton in a general so Clinton supporters should think of a primary or caucus in a State as an assist in the general election, where turnout will be of paramount importance.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Hillary Clinton has done very well in the South, Sanders has done well in New England, they have split in the Great Lakes region. It's time for the West Coast and the inland west and the mid Atlantic to have their say.

If Sanders quits now the DNC, the DLC and Clinton will be able to tell themselves that Sanders and the progressives are just a small minority of trouble makers. Instead, we will make Clinton work, she will have to run a national campaign and even if she does win the nomination it will be with a bare majority of pledged delegates.

Progressives need to be to the Democratic Party the way Evangelicals are to the GOP, send the message that our faction is indispensable.



BTW, those who say that Bernie's campaign will harm Clinton in the general need to shut up. Competitive primaries in all 50 states will help the Democratic nominee. Primaries force younger voters or voters who moved recently to register and find their polling place. Most Sanders supporters would vote for Clinton in a general so Clinton supporters should think of a primary or caucus in a State as an assist in the general election, where turnout will be of paramount importance.

I didn't mean that Bernie should quit campaigning, I just meant his supporters have to realize that he won't be the nominee.


I understand and agree with your point about the virtue of Sanders continuing to campaign.

 

[cl-1b]

You guys need to understand the reality here in america... a commie like sanders will never be the president of this country. That robin hood mentality is from the castle age. 

 

[cl-1b]

straight bread line economy. Its not happening. 

 

[blco02]

 

[Master Zik]

Yo what if the GOP really did try to separate itself from Trump?

I can imagine if he became president elect they'd block him like they did Obama if they couldn't control him and if all those Republicans in the Senate and house get voted out the only other option are democrats who would do the same.

On the other side I'm loving Cruz telling Rep. they need to rally behind him and all of them hate him so much. They want to try and contest the nomination and just overlook Cruz and pick Paul Ryan or something?

They wouldn't do that.

I can't remember what book it was but it was about how corporations exert their influence in world politics.

The key take away?

They don't look at politics in 4 year cycles. They look at it in 20-40 year cycles. Cooperations like Exxon that make up the republican elite will outlast any political movement, or candidate. and so why would they possibly destroy the republican party as we know it by plugging it into rebellion by stealing the nomination from Trump.


For what? For who?


Ted Cruz? Someone who will probably lose to Hilary in a landslide as?


Naah b. They will take this L, and wait for the next opportunity to tilt the balance of power further into their favour.


This idea that Kasich supports have that they will just change the rules on Trump and give it to Kasich. Pure delusion.
This idea Cruz supports have that the republicans in the senate will destroy the part to help Ted Cruz the person they loath? Pure Insanity.

That's most likely the case for the corporations but I'm talking about the individuals in that group, the leadership. All of the dudes that actually have a stance.

They're not all empty suits just willing to the bidding of who pays the most even if they've let that determine some of their policy. They've gone overboard and been heading towards what Trump is for a while yes but they see it and many appear to not agree with it or want it at all. So I'm saying are those guys just gonna wait 8 years?

To me, it's conditions like this that do create new political parties.

 

[Nike Jordan]

Bernie failed to court the Obama coalition, Hillary did, hence why she's the stronger candidate right now.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

That's most likely the case for the corporations but I'm talking about the individuals in that group, the leadership. All of the dudes that actually have a stance.

They're not all empty suits just willing to the bidding of who pays the most even if they've let that determine some of their policy. They've gone overboard and been heading towards what Trump is for a while yes but they see it and many appear to not agree with it or want it at all. So I'm saying are those guys just gonna wait 8 years?

To me, it's conditions like this that do create new political parties.

I don't think they are empty suits, they believe this stuff on economics, it just so happens to be extremely beneficial to the corperate ruling class in america. so they get installed in positions of power.

stopping trump at this point would involve the part elites changing the rules of the convention letting the pledge delegates vote for whoever they want.

that would result in civil war and a potential split of the party., that damage the party for more than 8 years.



i think the people who arent in the thrall of corporate interest arent oart elites and don't hate trump. i think thats where the split is.

the party elites are super sympathetic to corporate intrest, the rank and file working class aren't and they are voting trump.


read that national review (the stadard bearer for the conservative inteligencia) article i posted , they hate poor white people as much as they hate black people.


They are going to let the poor working class/ white wing of the party lose with trump and take back control in the next election cycle. they arent going to start a new party, over one election that they can't win anyways.

 

[rolaholic]

Bernie failed to court the Obama coalition, Hillary did, hence why she's the stronger candidate right now.

To be fair he was never ever gonna outflank someone who was in the administration

 

[MVP]

Bernie failed to court the Obama coalition, Hillary did, hence why she's the stronger candidate right now.

He's got the young/independent portion for the most part, just completely has whiffed on the black and Hispanic part which is larger.

 

[RustyShackleford]

he's not winning any states with sizable minority populations by 60%.


You're going to have to come to term with the fact that It's over.




unless Hilary gets arrested between now and the convention, its time to pack it in. the bern is over.

Hillary Clinton has done very well in the South, Sanders has done well in New England, they have split in the Great Lakes region. It's time for the West Coast and the inland west and the mid Atlantic to have their say.

If Sanders quits now the DNC, the DLC and Clinton will be able to tell themselves that Sanders and the progressives are just a small minority of trouble makers. Instead, we will make Clinton work, she will have to run a national campaign and even if she does win the nomination it will be with a bare majority of pledged delegates.

Progressives need to be to the Democratic Party the way Evangelicals are to the GOP, send the message that our faction is indispensable.



BTW, those who say that Bernie's campaign will harm Clinton in the general need to shut up. Competitive primaries in all 50 states will help the Democratic nominee. Primaries force younger voters or voters who moved recently to register and find their polling place. Most Sanders supporters would vote for Clinton in a general so Clinton supporters should think of a primary or caucus in a State as an assist in the general election, where turnout will be of paramount importance.

Your theory only works if Bernie gives Clinton the same help that Hillary and Bill gave Obama in 2008.

If and when Hillary gets the nomination, we will finally know if Bernie's revolution was about helping people or helping himself

If Bernie Sanders and his supporters play the "the are both just as bad, No Bernie no vote" or their is actually an exodus of "anti-establishment" voters to the Trump side, then the progressive movement stops dead in it's tracks.

Because it would confirm a lot people's biggest fear about this campaign. That conservatives value white supremacy, while white progressives still have white privileged

But I have faith that won't be the case.

 

[rexanglorum]

Your theory only works if Bernie gives Clinton the same help that Hillary and Bill gave Obama in 2008.

If and when Hillary gets the nomination, we will finally know if Bernie's revolution was about helping people or helping himself

If Bernie Sanders and his supporters play the "the are both just as bad, No Bernie no vote" or their is actually an exodus of "anti-establishment" voters to the Trump side, then the progressive movement stops dead in it's tracks.

Because it would confirm a lot people's biggest fear about this campaign. That conservatives value white supremacy, while white progressives still have white privileged

But I have faith that won't be the case.

There is no need to wonder, white progressive do have privileges that minorities do not have. The question is how will that influence voting patterns.

Whites of all political stripes can weather a Trump presidency. That is all the more reason for the DNC to purge the DLC elements and embrace genuine populism. If Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, she cannot win the general with minority and LGBT and feminist issues alone, she has to appeal to a certain number of white working class straight guys in order to win.

If you tell white men to check their privilege but you let the middle class continue its decline, you will just further radicalize huge majorities of white voters. Because white people already enjoy better protection under the law and cultural dominance, they associate privilege with having financial security. So when you say that a working class or poor white guy is privileged, he now sees liberals as both opposed to his material interests and as being dishonest.

It's time to decouple social justice from laissez-faire capitalism. That is if Sec. Clinton is actually interested in breaking down ALL the barriers.

 

[MVP]

Bernie should just run as VP then.

 

[rolaholic]

Bernie should just run as VP then.

Don't think it's likely but imagine the #'s these 2 would do on the same ticket in a general :x :x