Question For Christians

[antonlavey]

^^^^So the so-called scholars you posted are more legitimate than the scholars she posted or do you just disagree with it?

So the scholars you posted present facts without agendas and subjectivity?


lol @ the irony of you citing Bill OReilly, he does the same thing you do but with Christianity

This is why I find religious debates so entertaining, this amount of irony cannot be scripted

 

[tkthafm]

Yes, my scholars did not spend decades studying the Arabic language and authentic first hand sources. Obviously there is subjectivity... there is subjectivity everywhere, but find actual academic ERROR and we can go from there.

He posted a lay-man trying to sell copies of books, not a scholar... ACTUAL NON MUSLIM SCHOLARS said it's not worth the paper it's printed on 

"irony" eh ?

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Yes, my scholars did not spend decades studying the Arabic language and authentic first hand sources. Obviously there is subjectivity... there is subjectivity everywhere, but find actual academic ERROR and we can go from there.

"irony" eh ?

Your scholars spent decades studying an art that is prone to subjective interpretation, I know people who have gone to biblical or theology schools who have PhDs-Does this make their consideration of their chosen religions being superior to others objective because they've studied it for years?

I can study hip hop for ten years but does this lend legitimacy to me objectively considering hip hop the greatest musical genre of all time?


Yes, you calling out Bill OReilly is in fact ironic, since the both of you make similar religious arguments for your respective religions

 

[tkthafm]

We're not discussing interpretation here, smart guy.

The debate is the HISTORIC issue of whether or not the Qur'an we have today was EDITED. 
Non-Muslim scholars have said the work of the lay-man he cited is not worth the paper it's printed on. Next ?

 

[Jordan8]

Why dont you christians find a christian apologist forum to copy and paste from to combat sillyputty. Be more resourceful with your arguments sheesh

 

[Jordan8]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Word to the idea that the only humans in existence posed for a painting. 

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

We're not discussing interpretation here, smart guy.

The debate is the HISTORIC issue of whether or not the Qur'an we have today was EDITED. 
Non-Muslim scholars have said the work of the lay-man he cited is not worth the paper it's printed on. Next ?

lol I was referring to all that nonsense you were talking about the Koran being more valid than any other religions SMART GUY-Where is your proof? Or are you finally admitting to the fact that none of that is based on objectivity, the same way OReilly thinks Christianity is the correct religion

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

You haven't shown anything. It's only not valid in YOUR world.

All you did was claim my example was "faulty" (wrong) and the argument continues in a circle (because you are too stubborn to accept that both can coexist as I've clearly shown).

The problem is these guys come on here with a facade of genuine interest in asking questions but when they get an answer they reject it because their original goal was to attack the religion not to genuinely seek knowledge.

and lol @ Ibn Warraq being cited as a scholarly source... is this real life ?

and a refutation to your other source/video: http://www.answering-chri...arim/mosque_of_sanaa.htm
how cheap the tactics of these so called scholars

Be right back, let me cite Bill O'Reilly as a scholarly source to disprove gravity. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Donner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_DonnerFred Donner, a professor in Near Eastern studies, notes his lack of specialist training in Arabic studies, citing "inconsistent handling of Arabic materials," and unoriginal arguments, and "heavy-handed favoritism" towards revisionist theories and "the compiler’s [i.e. Ibn Warraq's] agenda, which is not scholarship, but anti-Islamic polemic."[sup][6][/sup] Anthropologist and historian Daniel Martin Varisco has criticized Ibn Warraq's book Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism, writing that "This modern son of a bookseller imprints a polemical farce not worth the 500-plus pages of paper it wastes."[sup][35][/sup]

LOL only in my world? It's valid in the world that operates on logic and reason which you're refusing to exercise here. You've dodged the question and resort to "free will" as if it has any validity in this discussion. I can't choose to do something I wasn't created to do which destroys your claim that we have free will. I can't choose to not sin if god created me to sin. I've said this several times. Now please explain how god is not responsible for everything within his creation if he is the ultimate source of everything. 
I explained how your example was faulty. You are not an omnipotent, omniscient being. Comparing yourself to one and claiming that it's the same thing is faulty logic. I didn't just blindly claim that you were wrong, I demonstrated why. If you'd like to explain how comparing yourself to an omnipotent, omniscient being is valid, be my guest. 

 

[kash55]

Peoples rationalization of how God picks who get into heaven is amusing to me. I understand that these are are religious beliefs, but when you hear yourself or read what you've written about it, doesn't ever strike you that it just sounds too silly and only seems to apply to you and your kinsfolk?

 

[tkthafm]

We went over this, no? Just hit the previous page button a few times. You not wanting to accept the proofs is on you.

and to the above guy... I'm not going to bother repeating myself yet again. I've said all I need to say on the free will issue.. take it, reject it... no dambs given.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

We went over this, no? Just hit the previous page button a few times. You not wanting to accept the proofs is on you.

and to the above guy... I'm not going to bother repeating myself yet again. I've said all I need to say on the free will issue.. take it, reject it... no dambs given.

Your honor if chewbacca is a 7 foot tall wookie you must acquit-you not wanting to accept the proof is on you


What the hell does free will have to do with the argument of whether Islam is the correct religion and Allah is the one and only God?

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

We went over this, no? Just hit the previous page button a few times. You not wanting to accept the proofs is on you.

and to the above guy... I'm not going to bother repeating myself yet again. I've said all I need to say on the free will issue.. take it, reject it... no dambs given.

You...made your terrible analogy. I just asked you to explain how you are comparable to an omnipotent, omniscient being. Are you just going to insist that you're right and not explain why?
You mentioned free will which I've demonstrated several times now cannot exist with god. You refuse to explain how it can aside from the faulty analogy that you provided. I've stated several times why it's faulty and you resort to condescending comments. 

I guess you're really not interested in discussion or you're refusing to acknowledge the very basic implications of your beliefs. Either way, I'm not sure why you bother to come into these topics. 

 

[tkthafm]

The free will was regarding another post.

You joke about it but when I showed you various scientific miracles that could not have been known at the time in the Qur'an you dismissed it as "advice about brushing teeth" ...

Anyway, nothing of worth is being added here and I'm not gaining anything by continuing this so I'm going to take my leave. Anyone who wants to discuss anything further/has some actual legitimate scholarly backed arguments; feel free to PM.

PS: No other Muslims on here ? Maybe you can explain better/have more patience than me.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The free will was regarding another post.

You joke about it but when I showed you various scientific miracles that could not have been known at the time in the Qur'an you dismissed it as "advice about brushing teeth" ...

Anyway, nothing of worth is being added here and I'm not gaining anything by continuing this so I'm going to take my leave. Anyone who wants to discuss anything further/has some actual legitimate scholarly backed arguments; feel free to PM.

PS: No other Muslims on here ? Maybe you can explain better/have more patience than me.

LOL the Muslim and Arabic civilizations had MANY MANY MANY great scientific discoveries, as did the Ancient Greek, Mayans, Egyptians, and in modern times scientific discoveries continue to be made-How is this proof that your specific God exists? Modern medicine has roots in Ancient Greece, Egypt, and China-why aren't their Gods getting credit for it? Why aren't their Gods just as valid?

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

So my questions went unanswered.

 

[rufiorufiorufio]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by RufioRufioRufio

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey


reported

I don't speak Arabic but I feel like you definitely just called me the nword

Dude just because I disagree on things with doesn't mean i'd ever use such a hateful word.
lmao i google translated U MAD in arabic.

C'mon anton, we are too smart and cool of people to take it to that low level.

Even though we but head you still my dude.

It was a joke, a really bad one on hindsight

It's actually something I say to a lot of my friends who insist on speaking their native tongue around me-hella rude

Yea you're alright in my book, let it be known religion is not a reason for me not to want to befriend someone-if that were the case I'd be forever alone

sends e-hug to anton.
i will rock a trench in your honor when the weather gets cold

 

[hazeleyed honey]

tktfahm,

Of course you would find anything to refute my sources, despite that they are scholarly.

The matter of the fact and point is that archaeological evidence and history dismisses the notion that the Qur'an is pure,and show that it was man made. You can try to argue with me with all your "evidence" by Islamic apologetics, history and archeological evidence is on my side. When you go the library in Cairo and take a look at all the different VERSIONS and CODICES of the Qur'an that have been preserved to this day, then come back and tell me the Qur'an is pure.

You know how Muslims keep pointing fingers that the Torah and the Bible has been changed? Well, the Qur'an is no different. Of course you'd think the Qur'an is different since you believe Islam is the ultimate religion of truth.

But it is your faith, and believe in it as you like and all the more power to you. I just do not agree with tampering with history and archaeological evidence to present falsified information. It is like telling me Romeo and Juliet was sent by God when it was written by Shakespeare.

I used to be a Muslim, non practicing but a believer until I did research on monotheistic faiths and their origins, and Islam is no different. As I see it, Prophet Mohammed was not a holy figure or prophet, but a genius human being that was able to found a religion based on creating an Arab identity and arising the Arab "nation" by rehashing Christianity,Judaism,and taking in other Arab pagan religions that he was influenced by at the time. He was able to attain followers,win conquests, and then the religion was institutionalized and an empire was built. Simple as that.

How is Prophet Mohammed or other prophets and holy figures different than Jo Schmoe on the street preaching they are prophets and see visions of God or speak to him? Why are you willing to believe in a faith founded 1400 years ago as to be the truth, but yet Joe Schmoe proclaiming to be a prophet will be sent to the looney bin? To me, they are all in the same. But, to you and as it is your choice, Islam is the truth and Prophet Mohammed is true and legit in his words.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The free will was regarding another post.

You joke about it but when I showed you various scientific miracles that could not have been known at the time in the Qur'an you dismissed it as "advice about brushing teeth" 

.The Qur'an and science do not show how it is miraculous. Infact, some of the information of science in the Qur'an is said to be wrong and some of it can be linked to teachings of other Greek philosophers. Not like there is a lot of it anyways. A lot of Greek philosophers and doctors before Islam had scientific discoveries and no way does it mean or signify it is due to revelations from the divine. I do not see how it is impossible from Arab pagans to come in contact with Greek philosophers. A lot of the Islamic philosophy was influenced by Greek philosophy, as were Judaism and Christianity. Afterall, when it came to trade and Islamic conquest, a lot of them came in contact with Greek teachings. Also, if you believe the Qur'an was man made, not a surprise if these scientific teachings were conjured up and added later on and then said to be recited by Prophet Mohammed.
Look at Christianity and how some followers claim it had prophecies and that it became true. So are you willing to believe these "prophecies" and that means the Bible is true?

 

[swag odie]

18 pages of back-and-forth.
Number of opinions changed: 0

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The free will was regarding another post.

You joke about it but when I showed you various scientific miracles that could not have been known at the time in the Qur'an you dismissed it as "advice about brushing teeth" 

.The Qur'an and science do not show how it is miraculous. Infact, some of the information of science in the Qur'an is said to be wrong and some of it can be linked to teachings of other Greek philosophers. Not like there is a lot of it anyways. A lot of Greek philosophers and doctors before Islam had scientific discoveries and no way does it mean or signify it is due to revelations from the divine. I do not see how it is impossible from Arab pagans to come in contact with Greek philosophers. A lot of the Islamic philosophy was influenced by Greek philosophy, as were Judaism and Christianity. Afterall, when it came to trade and Islamic conquest, a lot of them came in contact with Greek teachings. Also, if you believe the Qur'an was man made, not a surprise if these scientific teachings were conjured up and added later on and then said to be recited by Prophet Mohammed.
Look at Christianity and how some followers claim it had prophecies and that it became true. So are you willing to believe these "prophecies" and that means the Bible is true?

These are basic inferences anyone with a borderline normal IQ should be able to draw


For instance, if I start a religion today and I talk about the technology we have today in the scripture I write (poetically), does this legitimize my religion to my followers thousands of years into the future?

I honestly don't know where tkthafam is going with the scientific discovery argument, I've done research with people who have made some ground breaking discoveries and I can assure you we weren't reading scripture in he lab

 

[ajiiiplatinum]

Jesus will not condemn those who never heard about him. Jesus told us to preach the word so we would have a relationship with him here on earth and also in the after life. Those who never heard of him will be with him in paradise because they never knew him but also never denied him.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by AJIIIpLATINum

Jesus will not condemn those who never heard about him. Jesus told us to preach the word so we would have a relationship with him here on earth and also in the after life. Those who never heard of him will be with him in paradise because they never knew him but also never denied him.

Lucky me for finding out about Jesus

 

[trhee]

Man why is this thread still going on?

 

[teamjordan79]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by AJIIIpLATINum

Jesus will not condemn those who never heard about him. Jesus told us to preach the word so we would have a relationship with him here on earth and also in the after life. Those who never heard of him will be with him in paradise because they never knew him but also never denied him.

Lucky me for finding out about Jesus

anton + religious thread = 

 

[curbyourenthusiasm]

Originally Posted by tkthafm



You asked me something "6" times which I already answered and is common knowledge... God sent the words down to the Prophet and he recited them and they were immediately memorized and eventually written, translated, spread etc. The only human involvement here is in actually getting paper and ink and writing it down. The words were completely unchanged (which is what separates Islam from the twisted religions of Judaism and Christianity as they are known today).

no, actually, you are muslim because you have FAITH that this happened...

we arent muslim because we dont have FAITH that it happened...

actually, we think its highly unlikely it happened....

neither of us has proof it happened.....unfortunately the burden of proof falls on the one with unrelenting faith that it happened...i.e. you

therefore, you're the one sounding dumb, not us....

you're the one sounding like you blindly have faith in something that we find actually quite ridiculous

and not just that you have blind faith, but the arrogance and conviction that your FAITH is TRUTH.....without any evidence of the TRUTH...you're spouting off cliche religious answers, but not your own personal answers...and you say it with such conviction and a matter-of-fact tone...its actually kinda comical.

therefore, when you're asked rhetorical questions, we're moreso waiting for you to realize what im telling you now on your own

that you have a FAITH that something happened.

which doesnt mean that WE have faith it happened, NOR that it even happened....

i mean, i could tell you i have faith that we're the offspring of an alien experiment...

yep, god is an alien...like e.t. alien....

yep.

proof? who needs that?

my faith is as good as factual evidence.....duh