Shox discussion thread

[thefundamental]

so i've got a question or two about nike shox tech.

the first one is that it's touted to provide energy return, but isn't it bad for your knees if more force from energy goes back up your legs?

the second thing related to that is if the energy return is beneficial, what about it sets it apart from other traditional soles in the cushioning department?

is there a difference in terms of longevity with the polyurethane shox columns and regular cmeva/other density midsoles?

is it true that ankle sprains are sometimes more severe with shox because they have no give when the sole tips: its a very sharp sole?

Or am I totally off base?

 

[acbboyz84]

I don't think it's bad for your knees unless you have weak knee to begin with.

The point of energy return is just a marketing gimmick. You will get higher vertical with zoom air or adiprene.

Shox just provide more balance landing and lift off.

Yes , ankle sprain will be severe if you sprain them in shoxs. But since shox are so balance at the base, it's very hard to tip over unless you wear thewrong size or step on someone foot at a bad angle.



I was never a fan of the shox system. They look nice on certain shoes but Zoom Air out perform Shox any days.

 

[cwk]

I worked for NIKE Basketball Research and Development and I helped coordinate on and off-site weartests.
But I'm sure you also have a background in biomechanics and footwear design, which is why you can speak with such authority.

First, how would any cushioning system that decreases impact force have a negative effect on knee joints (or ankle joints)?
How is a cushioning technology that was developed over a decade in the foremost footwear research lab in the world (with empirical weartest data) a gimmick?
Zoom Air is dense and low-profile, dispersing impact force primarily laterally as opposed to vertically.
Do you have any supporting evidence of your claims of:
- higher "vertical" (I assume you mean vertical jump) with zoom air vs. adiprene vs. SHOX?
- SHOX providing more balance? And how was balance quantified in a weartest situation?
- Ankle sprain severity? If SHOX provides better balance (lateral stability) then how would ankle sprains be worse? You're contradicting yourself.

Event though they use different components, SHOX and Max Air are comparable in that benefits increase as downward force increases.
That's why SHOX and Air Max are better for larger, heavier athletes and lower volume air bags and zoom air are better for lighter athletes.

 

[chris chicago]

i don't think he's saying the decrease in force is bad for the knees. i think he's asking about the whole "energy return" concept and ifthat is bad for your knees. also that is what acb called gimmicky marketing.



I can only speak for myself but the energy return thing, along with the boing boing, implied that shox spring back once you've completed your landing. andthus help propel you higher as you push off. I don't know if that is the message they intended. And though I liked my one pair ok, don't think the shoxfeel like springs. It makes sense that impact protection is their strong point given their substantial appearance. but other than that (which comes with a costgiven shox are on the heavy side), I''ve always been curious about the advantages offered. is durablility better? what are the pros and cons of shoximpact protection compared to max air. what about compared to a3 or other shoes offerings.



it seems like all shoe companies throw a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo in with techspeak to describe their shoes, since you're in the know CWK, maybe youcould elucidate shox's?

 

[cwk]

Yes, the "boing" commericals were an advertising campaign to communicate the benefits of SHOX.
I worked in a retail concept shop during the R4 and BB4 launch and kids would ask to hear the shoes.
Yes, there is a degree of energy return with SHOX, just as there is with all cushioning systems.
Energy traveling back up your leg, away from the ground, can not harm your knees; it doesn't make any sense - it's reducing impact.
I'm 6'6"/240 lbs., and in my personal experience, SHOX and Max Air provided very similar cushioning.
They both are intentionally heavier and harder than phylon or zoom air, so it's like comparing apples and oranges.
As for A3, from what I can tell it's basically the same concept of SHOX, only with the columns flipped vertically instead of horizontally.
[img]http://a712.g.akamai.net/7/712...om/images/products/large/14582081_l.jpg[/img] [img]http://a712.g.akamai.net/7/712....com/images/products/large/015385_l.jpg[/img]
Here's the big secret: current biomechanical and industrial design limitations dictate that most cushioning technologies perform within a consistentrange.
Athletic footwear, like any other industry, has numerous competing products that have to differentiate themselves somehow.
I feel NIKE makes great products and their sales support that.
I'm not naive enough to assume that every NIKE product provides superior cushioning in every category.
All cushioning exists on a scale from soft to hard and from lateral stabililty to linear ride; you have to decide where in that matrix you want to be.
I have never competed in any footwear other than NIKE, so I can't provide a comparitive analysis.
I have tried on and worn other brands, and for my foot shape and body type, NIKE is the most comfortable.

 

[hmack007]

I don't really care about the technically aspects of it.....but I will say this

BRING BACK THE SHOX MONSTER!!! And no, I'm not talking about some all leather LS version thats all white, or some other stupid no function material/colorsat finishline that you really can't run in. I'm talking about the real shox monsters. With mesh. Oh and I don't want the "impax"knockoffs eithers

BRING EM BACK!!!

 

[thefundamental]

just a question about energy return.... so where does the energy go when it goes back up to your leg? how is it beneficial or detrimental?



and about Ankle sprain severity? If SHOX provides better balance (lateral stability), then the occurence of ankle sprains would be less, but since the shoxplatform has a sharper and more rigid edge, would the severity of ankle sprains increase?



and dude, whats the deal with encapsulated shox, it's basically covered up, and doesn't expose the columns, is all? or are there supposedly increasedbenefits of air cushioning?



i'm just totally confused, is all.

 

[cwk]

Cushioning does not directly affect ankle sprains because it deals with vertical, not lateral, force.
Most shoes are approximately the same width in the heel - other factors such as midsole construction, outsole traction and ankle support determine lateralstability.
Most sprains occur from either landing on an uneven surface (another player's foot) or planting your foot while your body is moving sideways.

Encapsulated SHOX is just cosmetic as far as I know.

 

[theadimac]

I cant play ball in shox shoes. Which is a real shame cause I love the way they look the problem that I have is that I have very little cartiladge in my rightknee, and I didnt have it operated on, so with a shoe that is as stiff as shox my knee can sometimes pop out of place or in severe conditions dislocate. Iactually dislocated my knee from a rouch landing in shox vc4. I stick to either Air Max 360 BB, Air Max STAT, Zoom Kobe 1, Zoome Kobe 2, Lebron 4 or JordanXX2. With a few others but mainly those. Those shoes I am able to play competitively for long periods of time. Air based cushioning works better for peoplewith knee injuries. Atleast in my case. I dont know if there is any scientific proof behind my claims but this is strictly from my personal experiences.

 

[acbboyz84]

Do you have any supporting evidence of your claims of:
- higher "vertical" (I assume you mean vertical jump) with zoom air vs. adiprene vs. SHOX?
- SHOX providing more balance? And how was balance quantified in a weartest situation?
- Ankle sprain severity? If SHOX provides better balance (lateral stability) then how would ankle sprains be worse? You're contradicting yourself.
Yes i do.
You do get higher vertical with a zoom air unit because it doesn't require as much leg pressure to lift off like shox does. When wearing shoxs, You reallyhave to push the ground to feel the shox working unless you're 250 lbs +. You can go ask any players with decent hops and they would prefer wearing zoomover shox. As a matter of fact, air max are even better than shox for the big guys that you talked about. If shox are so great , how come you don't see as many player in the league today wearing them compare to zoom.? I'm not bashing shox, im just saying zoom is a better cushion overall.

Ankle sprain will be more severe because the base are heavier and the heel is higher off the ground than the heel in zoom, and if your foot tipped over,you'll will have more chance of getting your ligament tear. Plus, the heel in shox shoes are very hard, therefore increase the chance severity. As for thepart where I said shox was stable- I did not talk about ankle protection . I was talking about it the base in shox are heavier , hence the point of groundcontact is at the center.

On a side note : A shoes tester don't play hard core ball nor dare to see how it feel to sprain an ankle. Do you see a footwear tester go out and testankle protection ? No.

 

[cwk]

ACBboyz84 -
- yes, I have seen "a shoe tester go out and test ankle stability" because I WAS A NIKE WEARTEST COORDINATOR AND I TOLD THEM TO DOIT!
- "shoxs" isn't a word.
- your uneducated opinion and second-hand word of mouth isn't proof of anything except your blatant ignorance.
- I had a 38" vertical, auditioned for a NIKE Basketball commerical, played college ball (briefly), and won several college dunk contests, so I am thatguy with hops.
- the minimum body weight required for benefits from SHOX and Air Max is well below 250 lbs. (I would estimate 175 lbs.)
- the shoes most NBA players wear on-court is largely predetermined by their footwear contracts and NIKE's launch schedule.
- damn.
- the more rigid the heel cup (as in SHOX) the more stable the shoe and the less chance of an ankle sprain.
- the difference in midsole height between shoe models is negligible, measurable in millimeters, and does not affect the probability of ankle roll-over.
- shoe testers play at all levels from amateur to professional.
- I can tell you're famailiar with both kinesiology and grammar from the phrase "getting your ligament tear".

So, in conclusion, don't come to a battle of wits unarmed.

I anxiously await your articulate, well-crafted response.

 

[nbadotcom]

CWK, here's something I've always wanted to know - I have had ankle problems for most of my life. I really liked the higher cut shoes from back in theday, like the Air Command Force and Air Ballistic Force.

I know that the higher cut shoes didn't always sell that well to the general public, but it seemed that lots of pro and college level players always worethem - and you didn't see as many guys wearing ankle braces back then.

Did Nike (and other brands) quit making the full hi-cut shoes for strictly sales reasons, or are there technical reasons behind the trend toward lower cutshoes?



One more question - even with the lower cut shoes, Nike had other things like monkey paws in place for ankle stability. I think the last shoe that had themonkey paw was either the Shox Limitless or the Original Air Max Elite. Whatever happened to the monkey paw?





Thanks in advance.

 

[manglor]

Great thread.



I can see why he's sayin that you can't blame the cushonin for the severity of the ankle sprain. That would be like blamin your seatbelt for theseverity of a car crash. Too many other factors are involved.



I have a question for CWK... lookin back now does it seem like shox now have far surpassed the technology in shoes like the VC1 or do the first shox still holdup compared ta what gets released now?

 

[cwk]

My personal favorite SHOX Basketball shoe is still the original BB4. I played in several heel and full-length models and the BB4, to me, was the mostresponsive. Other than that, the closest shoe was the SHOX Bomber which had lower profile forefoot SHOX, but was too heavy. I don' think SHOXhas evolved drastically yet. It's still two thermoplastic plates that provide most of the cushioning separated by vertical spacers (columns).

NBAdotcom-
I played highschool ball in the 80's and I feel you. I think extremely high-cut shoes just slowly went out of style, with 3/4 cut shoes becoming the norm. I also liked the monkey paw, especially in the Air Vis Zoom Uptempo. It was used in many shoes and I would guess that it will surface again, perhaps in aslightly altered version.

Peace

 

[hmack007]

CWK

Any chance of the Monsters coming back? NikeID maybe?

 

[cwk]

I haven't heard anything. Rock Deep would know more about that than me.

 

[menoforegon]

The term "energy return" does not have anything to do with energy going back up your leg. "Energy return" means that the "springyeffect" of SHOX helps to propel the athlete forward in a linear motion when it comes to running in them. In basketball or other sports activities, NikeSHOX columns absorb the impact forces and slowly compress. Once it fully compresses and returns to its original shape it will bring back the energy that wasused when it compressed. Therefore, the "energy return" allows the athlete to use less energy during running, or whatever sport they're engagedin. This is due to the fact that the SHOX columns are round. They don't compress as fast and they return to their original shape pretty quickly. SHOXcolumns are made out of very resilient, very durable urethane foam. CWK seems to have quite a bit of correct info. in regards to the benefitsand properties of SHOX.

As far as ankle sprains, that's a STABILITY issue, not a cushioning issue. Nike actually DOES weartest for ankle sprains.

Different SHOX columns are used for different types of shoes. They are actually "tuned" and tested to the cushioning needs that the sport demands. Sothe VC I would have a different column density or configuration then a SHOX tennis shoe.

 

[mhsrunner09]

- the difference in midsole height between shoe models is negligible, measurable in millimeters, and does not affect the probability of ankle roll-over.
CWK, I know you are an authority on all of this and I know what you have to say is true. So with your experience maybe you could explain a littlemore in-depth how the above statement is true. This is definitely not a shot at your intelligence, just a want to learn more. To me (who has, although nocollege degree on the subject, quite a bit of experience in many different shoes including shox), it would seem that even a difference of millimeters in theheight of a midsole would lift each foot's center of gravity, even if only by a small amount. This would seem to translate into slightly less stability thehigher and higher the foot is lifted, thus raising the probability of ankle roll over, which would have to be compensated for by some stability system on themedial side of the shoe's upper, such as whatever the rigid plate is that runs up the medial ankle area in my Shox Stunners.

Thanks for the info in advance; feel free to rip me apart like you did with the other guys if you so please.

 

[menoforegon]

It's true, the difference is normally a matter of millimeters. A more important factor would be the Heel Counter or "Heel Cup" and how wide thebase of the shoe is. In running, you wouldn't "roll" an ankle because you're going in a linear(straight) motion. In basketball orcross-training activities however, you're doing a lot of lateral(side-to-side) movements, so the Lateral Stability of the shoe becomes an issue. That'swhere an ankle strap, Heel Counter or some type of TPU device around the ankle would help to solidify you when you land.

The thing to remember is, when we claim SHOX to be the most "balanced", it means it balances pressure distribution with the moderator plates over thecolumns.

From what I've read in this post, there seems to be a lot of misinformation, misinterpretation, and misnomers about our technology. I'm certainly gladyou all are asking. If anyone is unsure about a particular Nike technology or design, please don't hesitate to ask first. Don't be so quick tocriticize or "verbally attack". Wait for someone with knowledge on the subject to respond. THEN, and ONLY THEN should you form an opinion about it,whether it's criticism or praise. And if you dislike the product or technology, we certainly cannot hold you to buying it. You have choices.

 

[acbboyz84]

ACBboyz84 -
- yes, I have seen "a shoe tester go out and test ankle stability" because I WAS A NIKE WEARTEST COORDINATOR AND I TOLD THEM TO DO IT!
- "shoxs" isn't a word.
- your uneducated opinion and second-hand word of mouth isn't proof of anything except your blatant ignorance.
Since when did you take it personal ? I've never said anything to you. You're the ignorant one ? Nobody said anything negatively aboutyou, yet you got butt hurt and came back to call me an ignorant this and that ? I might not be a Nike tester but i know my stuff. You said you was a Nikefootwear coordinator and you told them to do it? So you told them to land on someone else feet to see how ankle protection would be in your Nike shoes weartest ? Wow , you're so powerful. I'm sure you're Phil Knight's personal footwear tester, because your words seem so powerful and sophisticated.You must be a Nike shoes guru. Please, nobody care what you are. As a matter of fact, I think you're one of those kid who sign up on that Nike website tobecome a footwear tester, so don't come in here and preach

 

[cwk]

"You're the ignorant one ?" is a statement, not a question, and should be followed by a period or anexclamation mark, depending on your degree of conviction.
"Please, nobody care if what you are with Nike." is neither a statement nor a question; it's a garbled, pathetic fragment.
"Do you see a footwear tester go out and test ankle protection ? No." Yes, we tested ankle support, lateral stability, outsoletraction and many other criteria.
"I might not be a Nike tester" No, you positively, definitely, absolutely aren't a NIKE tester.
"I think you're one of those kid who sign up on that Nike website to become a footwear tester, so don't preach."
All I am is a former NIKE Basketball employee with a passion for sharing my knowledge and exeprience.

If you have a question, ask. If an expert answers, listen and learn. I learned from many,many NIKE employees on my way up from retail to corporate.

 

[acbboyz84]

"I might not be a Nike tester" No, you positively, definitely, absolutely aren't a NIKE tester.
"I think you're one of those kid who sign up on that Nike website to become a footwear tester, so don't preach."
All I am is a former NIKE Basketball employee with a passion for sharing my knowledge and exeprience.
Wow, Don't be a grammar police when you can't even spell experience correctly. CWK, You're a sad man who think he's right ateverything.
I'm pretty sure you've kissed a lot of .... along the way. Once again, i don't give a damn what you are with Nike. Don't get offended ifsomeone else disagree with your precious " GREAT SHOE KNOWLEDGE". You're so great, I felt sad that Nike paid you 10$/an hour for sharing yourshoes knowledges around the world.

 

[cwk]

"who think he's right"...
"if someone else disagree with"...
"shoes knowledges"...
"You're so great, I felt sad that Nike paid you"...

Is English your first language, kid?

Keep them coming - I've got time to kill and a master's degree.

 

[acbboyz84]

I could careless about your master degree or what you are thinking now. You got caught CWK , don't try to change to subject. It will only make you lookmore darker and stupider than what you already are.

. Please,

Texas old man. Once again, it'sNT , nobody care what degree you have.Lol You sit at the bottom of my society ranking. No more please,

 

[cwk]

"careless" - one word!
"shoes master degree" - B.A. in health communication and master's in professional writing and technical communication, with aspecialization in medical writing.
"more stupider" -

"You got caught CWK" - Caught what? Making a sound argument based on facts? Using correct subject/predicate agreement?

Look kid, you're the only person in this entire thread that's losing their cool.
I sincerely enjoy educating others about NIKE.
I've helped NT members with NIKE career advice, job searches, resumes and internships.
I've spoken at NIKE camps and clinics all over the country.
I've contributed to several footwear websites.
I do all this because I like doing it, not because I think I'm the smartest or coolest guy on NIKETALK (that's B1LLY HOYLE).

Here are my credientials to back up every word I've written:

- Three years as a NIKE Concept Shop Specialist
- Three years as a Footwear Focus Group member
- NIKE Basketball/Sports Marketing Internship #1
- NIKE Basketball/Sports Marketing Internship #2
- NIKE Basketball Research & Development Coordinator
- Collected 150+ pairs of unreleased promo footwear
- Featured inteview subject in a sneaker video

I promise that if you write ONE grammatically correct post, I'll concede and let you win.
So study hard and sound out the long words. You can do it! We're all pulling for you!