Students of Econ, is life less enjoyable or hopeful because of it?

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By "students" I mean everyone from the person who has taken few intro courses and/or reads columns by economist to the person who has his PhD. Doyou feel like Economics, which is sometimes called the "dismal science" has made you sadder and more pessimistic about the world?

While we learn happy truths such as the fact that the world is not zero sum, over time wealth can be created and standards of living can be raised over time,there is the inescapable reality that there is scarcity, that there is very enough to satisfy every want and that everything has a cost. Politicians who winare good at making people believe that that is not the case but rhetoric cannot beat scarcity and we will always be constrained as a society.

That is not opinion or ideology that is fact. Does studying that fact and its implications make the world seem colder and darker. Does this knowledge make youwish perhaps that you did not know these things and could go back to believing that all we need are a few institutional and political rearrangement, all weneed are the "right people" in office, all we need is not stop certain "villains" in order to greatly, if not completely end, various formsof suffering, sadness and scarcity?



With that in mind, who wants to join my team?
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one of the reasons why i chose to study economics in college was to understand if certain things are possible ... can we really solve world hunger? can weafford to build enough shelter for the homeless? i have my degree and still dont know what to think ... around every corner seems to be a double edged sword,give and take ... i dunno ...
 
had a intermediate econ midterm today.......
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. i hate econ.
 
Koopa2410 wrote:
had a intermediate econ midterm today.......
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. i hate econ.


Econ is generally not good for your GPA. Outside of math, hard sciences and engineering, econ is the biggest GPA killer at most universities. It is almostalways the toughest within it college, whether or not your school has it in its business college or in the social and behavioral sciences.


And to Lilstar, if you did not do so while in school, read How The West Grew Rich and Growth Reccuring: Economic Change In WorldHistory, both of them have almost no math, they are light on theory, heavy on empirical evidence and history, enjoyable to read (they are not textbooks at all) and they are the one source of light and hope amid the gloomy World of Economics.

Until the last few centuries, the masses of people lived in extreme squalor with disease and famine and death as constant companions in way that few of us caneven imagine. Even the residents of the great empires of the world, even those who lived in periods of time, deemed "Golden Ages" by historian whousually are focused on the artistic and cultural achievements or political history, worked so much and had so little to consume that their situation would beclassified as dire poverty. Then a few hundred years ago, bit by bit, generation by generation luck, geography, political changes, innovation, technology,specialization and trade and later industrialization made it so that the ordinary person in Europe started to have a standard of living that was unprecedented.

There experience and the experience of societies that have emulated and recreated that experience have shown us that, despite the opinions of many, wealth isnot static and fixed and while scarcity is permanent, poverty is not. Wealth can be created faster than population growth and ordinary people can benefits fromthis increasing wealth, the result of productivity. When many here "productivity" it comes off as almost a dumb corporate buzzword but productivityor efficiency is what cures poverty, more stuff or service are created with less labor hours. When there is increased productivity, especially all around aneconomy, more things can be had for less and less labor hours than in the past and that is the road away from hunger as well as a whole variety of human wants.

In this respect, knowing that the world can be positive sum and not zero sum is the emotional opiate in economics. that anesthetizes its student against itsmany sad truths. So many people really believe that the wealth of some causes the poverty of others and while that can be the case it is not always the caseand we could have situation in the future where that never is the case.
 
"Dismal science"?
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Haven't heard that in awhile, hasntit emerged into a "imperial" science yet?
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I've never had *%*$ any type of fondness towards economics thankfully. $!*#%

It seems like *%*$ a sad major to have.
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Originally Posted by kix4kix

Studying Economics is depressing.
i sit there and draw up football plays during classes to stay sane
 
AP Macro econ is so incredibly easy that it's hard to take it seriously, let alone find it depressing. Hopefully when I'm in college and taking a realeconomics class I'll have a better appreciation for the subject.
 
my econ degree didn't make life any more or less enjoyable

it did make me more knowledgeable about many aspects of society and government and better my logic and critical thinking
 
My undergrad was in Economics. I hated it. I hated the fact they were teaching this orthodox maintream version of Economics that follows the neoliberal streamof this field of study. Free trade, protectionism, cheap labour, outsourcing blah blah blah...It is all a bunch of B.S. I only mainly enjoyed one course,Development Economics,which was taught by this inspirational professor named Michel Chossudovsky. He told it like it is, saying that the global macroenomicagenda spewed by these great Western powers does not alleviate poverty like they say it does or should ,but rather only entrenches the world into deeperpoverty and to mainly serve the interests of the rich economic superpowers. So he was basically saying F the IMF and the World Bank. My views suit with hisstream of thinking and it opened up my eyes to more of a practical and left-leaning stream of Economics which they never dare expose at my University besidesthis professor.

What I hated about it is when they tell you, "Oh, in Economics, this does not happen in the real world, but it is like this in theory...". So, thisis why I pursued my Masters in another field since I knew I did not want to be an Economist.

Having an Economics degree is very beneficial in the labour market, especially in the times we are now. But, I do not know how it is in the U.S., but over herebeing an undergrad Economics student does not cut out. They are looking for Masters Economic students.
 
Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

My undergrad was in Economics. I hated it. I hated the fact they were teaching this orthodox maintream version of Economics that follows the neoliberal stream of this field of study. Free trade, protectionism, cheap labour, outsourcing blah blah blah...It is all a bunch of B.S. I only mainly enjoyed one course, Development Economics,which was taught by this inspirational professor named Michel Chossudovsky. He told it like it is, saying that the global macroenomic agenda spewed by these great Western powers does not alleviate poverty like they say it does or should ,but rather only entrenches the world into deeper poverty and to mainly serve the interests of the rich economic superpowers. So he was basically saying F the IMF and the World Bank. My views suit with his stream of thinking and it opened up my eyes to more of a practical and left-leaning stream of Economics which they never dare expose at my University besides this professor.

What I hated about it is when they tell you, "Oh, in Economics, this does not happen in the real world, but it is like this in theory...". So, this is why I pursued my Masters in another field since I knew I did not want to be an Economist.

Having an Economics degree is very beneficial in the labour market, especially in the times we are now. But, I do not know how it is in the U.S., but over here being an undergrad Economics student does not cut out. They are looking for Masters Economic students.
Where'd you get your undergrad from?

I'm thinking about taking more courses in it. I'm feeling the math tied into it since being a math major to maybe pursuing Masters.
 
Originally Posted by TheAbove

Where'd you get your undergrad from?

I'm thinking about taking more courses in it. I'm feeling the math tied into it since being a math major to maybe pursuing Masters.
University of Ottawa in Ottawa,Canada.

Math major? You should like taking Economics courses then. I dislike Math and did not know the courses would include that much Math. My third year Macro,Micro, and other Econ classes, all tired into Math. I hated the math with Econ when it had to do with advanced Calculus, but I liked Econometrics and StatsEcon because it was more tied to advanced Finite and Statistics.

If you can, pursue a Masters in Econ, it will be tons better for you and open so many more doors for you. Masters in Econ is tough. They burn you out and thereare assignments/projects every week. If you have the drive for it, go for it.
 
im an econ major and most econ classes i've been able to get by with a B. im taking my last two now and it seems like in my higher level macro is where wetalked the most about what is going on today. so no, it's not depressing
 
Having now been a teacher in a public school in one of the biggest cities in the U.S for all of two months after having just graduated with an Econ degree fromcollege, I see this issue of scarcity of resources playing out every single day. It definitely makes life tough, telling these kids that forno fault of their own, they've been dealt a bad hand, and there is nothing they can do in the immediate future but work harder. Every issue we see in theschool ultimately boils down to a lack of some kind of resource, whether it is capital, labor, land, human capital, time, etc. The role of public schoolteacher is certainly not the appropriate place from which serious change can happen, but it certainly has given me an appreciation for what needs to happen.
I'm down to join the team.
 
Originally Posted by igotdemkickz21

Having now been a teacher in a public school in one of the biggest cities in the U.S for all of two months after having just graduated with an Econ degree from college, I see this issue of scarcity of resources playing out every single day. It definitely makes life tough, telling these kids that for no fault of their own, they've been dealt a bad hand, and there is nothing they can do in the immediate future but work harder. Every issue we see in the school ultimately boils down to a lack of some kind of resource, whether it is capital, labor, land, human capital, time, etc. The role of public school teacher is certainly not the appropriate place from which serious change can happen, but it certainly has given me an appreciation for what needs to happen.
I'm down to join the team.

What is sad that there arent many people finding alternative uses for those scarce resources.
 
Im glad to see that im not the only one that struggles in econ. The course is crazy.

I took micro last semester and got a D and this semester im taking macreo and im sitting at a 67%.

The only class that I have problems with in college
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...and to make it even worse the two teachers I have had are boring
 
Hey, can anyone offer me some advice? I'm planning to major in Economics, and im currently taking micro & macro...im doing really well since i tookboth AP's in highschool. What's the job outlook looking for me in the next 4-5 years? I'm in the Boston area.
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thanks


Joined the team
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wanna be even more pessimistic and hate the world?

take a Marxian Economics course
 
Funny you should bring up the topic Rex.
Article in ZeroHedge today.
[h1]Wall Street Journal Admits Economists Were Wrong, But Fails to Discuss their INCENTIVE for Being Wrong[/h1]

Washington's Blog.

The Wall Street Journal admits this week that economists blew it:
The pain of the financial crisis has economists striving to understand precisely why it happened and how to prevent a repeat...

The crisis exposed the inadequacy of economists' traditional tool kit, forcing them to revisit questions many had long thought answered, such as how to tame disruptive boom-and-bust cycles...

"We could be looking at a paradigm shift," says Frederic Mishkin, a former Federal Reserve governor now at Columbia University.

That shift could change the way central bankers do their job, possibly leading them to wade more deeply into markets. They could, for example, place greater emphasis on the amount of borrowing in the economy, rather than just the interest rates at which borrowing is done. In boom times, that could lead them to restrict how much money various players, ranging from hedge funds to home buyers, can borrow


I have repeatedly pointed out the flaws in mainstream economics. See this, this, this, this and this.

But the Journal makes it sound like the policy-makers and economists who deployed faulty models were innocently ignorant of any larger truths:
The models "were not able to draw up the red flags," says Tim Besley, a professor at the London School of Economics who served on the Bank of England's policy-making committee until recently.

Barry Ritholtz has an excellent criticism of the article, pointing out:
There are many areas I would have liked to see the [journal's] article explore: The lack of Scientific Method, the mostly awful performance of economists, its misunderstanding of the value of modeling, the bias inherent in Wall Street variant of economics, and lastly, the corruption of economics by politics...


Let's start with the basics. Hard "science" - Physics, Biology, Chemistry, and all variants thereto - begins humbly. They try to describe the universe around us by creating theories, and then testing them. These theorems are always preliminary. Even when testing validates them, Science is always prepared - even eager - to replace them with newer theories that are proven to be even more valid.

The humility of science begins with an admission: We know nothing. We seek to learn through experiment and logic, and constantly evolve more and more accurate explanations. Scientific belief evolves gradually over time. Nothing is assumed, presumed, or hypothesized as true. Indeed, research is a presumption that current theories are inadequate or incomplete. The practice of science is a an ongoing search for better explanations, more proof, further verification - for Truth.

Science is the ultimate "show me" state.

Economics has a somewhat, shall we call it, less rigorous approach. Indeed, the arrogance of economics is that it is the polar opposite of Science. It begins with a few basic assumptions, many of which are obviously untrue; some are demonstrably false.

No, Mankind is not a rational, profit maximizing actor. No, markets are not perfectly, or even nearly, efficient. No, prices do not reflect the sum total of all that is known about a given market, sector or stock. Those of you who pretend otherwise are fools who deserve to have your 401ks cut in half. That is called just desserts. The problem is that your foolishness helped cut nearly everyone else's 401ks in half. That is called criminal incompetence.

Where was I? Ahhh, our sad tale of the practitioners of the dismal arts.

Starting from a false premise that fails to understand the most basic behaviors of the Human animal, economics proceeds to build an edifice of cards on a foundation of sand. (How could that possibly go astray?) Like a moonshot off by a few inches at launch, by the time the we reach further into time and space, the trajectory is off by millions of miles . . .

Economics ... creates an illusion of precision where none exists. The belief in their models led to all manner of mischief, from subprime to derivatives to risk management...

The Behaviorists have been fighting the mainstream for decades now, trying to correct the errors of the basic building blocks of the dismal science.


But I would go further in my criticism of the economic profession by arguing that the decisions to use faulty models was an economic and political choice, because it benefited the economists and those who hired them.

For example, the elites get wealthy during booms and they get wealthy during busts. Therefore,t he boom-and-bust cycle benefits them enormously, as they can trade both ways. Specifically, as Simon Johnson, William K. Black and others point out, the big boys make bucketloads of money during the booms using fraudulent schemes and knowing that many borrowers will default. Then, during the bust, they know the government will bail them out, and they will be able to buy up competitors for cheap and consolidate power. They may also bet against the same products they are selling during the boom (more here), knowing that they'll make a killing when it busts.

But economists have pretended there is no such thing as a bubble. Indeed, BIS slammed the Fed and other central banks for blowing bubbles and then using "gimmicks and palliatives" afterwards.

It is not like economists weren't warning about booms and busts. Nobel prize winner Hayek and others were, but were ignored because it was "inconvenient" to discuss this "impolite" issue.

Likewise, the entire Federal Reserve model is faulty, benefiting the banks themselves but not the public.

However, as Huffington Post notes:
The Federal Reserve, through its extensive network of consultants, visiting scholars, alumni and staff economists, so thoroughly dominates the field of economics that real criticism of the central bank has become a career liability for members of the profession, an investigation by the Huffington Post has found.

This dominance helps explain how, even after the Fed failed to foresee the greatest economic collapse since the Great Depression, the central bank has largely escaped criticism from academic economists. In the Fed's thrall, the economists missed it, too.

"The Fed has a lock on the economics world," says Joshua Rosner, a Wall Street analyst who correctly called the meltdown. "There is no room for other views, which I guess is why economists got it so wrong."


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Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/07/priceless-how-the-federal_n_278805.html

The problems of a massive debt overhang were also thoroughly documented by Minsky, but mainstream economists pretended that debt doesn't matter.

And - even now - mainstream economists are STILL willfully ignoring things like massive leverage, hoping that the economy can be pumped back up to super-leveraged house-of-cards levels.

As the Wall Street Journal article notes:
As they did in the two revolutions in economic thought of the past century, economists are rediscovering relevant work.

It is only "rediscovered" because it was out of favor, and it was only out of favor because it was seen as unnecessarily crimping profits by, for example, arguing for more moderation during boom times.

The powers-that-be do not like economists who say "Boys, if you don't slow down, that bubble is going to get too big and pop right in your face". They don't want to hear that they can't make endless money using crazy levels of leverage and 30-to-1 levels of fractional reserve banking, and credit derivatives. And of course, they don't want to hear that the Federal Reserve is a big part of the problem.

Indeed, the Journal and the economists it quotes seem to be in no hurry whatsoever to change things:
The quest is bringing financial economists -- long viewed by some as a curiosity mostly relevant to Wall Street -- together with macroeconomists. Some believe a viable solution will emerge within a couple of years; others say it could take decades.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/wa...ong-fails-discuss-their-incentive-being-wrong


I was a finance econ major and it was evident a few courses in that modern day mainstream economics was based on so many completely horse !%#$assumptions/models that it was laughable.

The more I think about it the more it boils down to a very simple explanation. In the end past all of the +@%%+@%%" economics is th study of human behaviors/interactions/choices vis-a-vis markets/capital" , Economics is the study of successes and failuresin........... acquiring capital.
How many PHD's would you trust in running a corner grocery store.
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Honestly.
 
I actually failed the first year mandatory Economics course 2x. Absolutely hated it.

Had one more chance to pass it, and actually read the textbook, went to study groups and pretty much ate, %#%+ and ate Economics for 6 weeks. It was prettyinteresting I must say, but the stuff beyond first year would probably kill me, suffice to say the introduction to Economics was enough for me.
 
had miserable professors.. The whole econ department at my school has heavy accents (not joking) so it is hard to grasp what they are saying and learn fromit.. So basically I ended up teaching myself the basics of macro and micro economics and did very well..


Personally it doesn't make a difference that I know it.. The rigid structure of economics often keeps me from giving a damn. You can spend all dayfollowing trend after trend, but that doesn't mean you succeed in your business venture. So, I just use it as something to be mindful of, instead ofkeeping a thought or decision in the box that is economics.
 
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