The Minnesota Timberwolves Offseason Thread - Kris Dunn at No. 5 in Most Recent DX Mock

Do they have a point with the grounds that it takes away from the freedom of resell markets for a product that they own now, and should be able to sell themselves if they want?

Technically I think the team could make the case that the item they're producing (tickets) never actually needed to stay the same in its form and distribution? But idk there may be something to the part of the complaint that refers to season-ticket holders not given sufficient notice in advance? But again, the Timberwolves organization would then only have to address that for the current year of tickets and going forward they shouldn't have any restrictions on actually doing this.

Just my read, don't know all the rules and regulations that are associated with buying and selling tickets.
 
The mystery of Ricky Rubio

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By Zach Lowe, ESPN.com

Danny Ainge's Mystery Target has gotten all the post-trade deadline attention, but with the Bucks and Timberwolves facing off tonight, let's look at perhaps the most interesting deal that didn't happen on February 18th: Minnesota's push to acquire Khris Middleton.

After some initial talks, the Wolves told Milwaukee they would swap Ricky Rubio for Middelton, and when the Bucks declined, Minnesota even discussed the possibility of tossing in a protected 2016 first-round pick, per league sources familiar with the matter. Other outlets have reported Milwaukee's interest in Rubio -- Jason Kidd seems to have a thing for rangy point guards with busted jumpers -- but Milwaukee never seriously entertained trading Middleton, sources say.

Giannis Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker were never on the block, leaving Milwaukee with only one real counter: a point guard challenge trade of Michael Carter-Williams for Rubio. Minnesota obviously wasn't doing that, and the discussions died, sources say.

The theoretical Rubio-Middleton swap, and that Milwaukee now sees Middleton as the more valuable player, lands smack at the intersection of several on- and off-court trends executives are still trying to grasp. Going all-in for Middleton makes a ton of sense given the skyrocketing salary cap that will warp the NBA's financial landscape over the next two years. He's just 24, thriving in the first year of a five-year, $70 million contract with a declining year-over-year salary after 2016-17. Almost every deal signed last summer, under the current $70 million cap, will look like a bargain in two years -- especially those attached to younger two-way players like Middelton just entering their primes.

We all focus on the next superstar that might become available via trade: DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, or whichever name flutters into the news cycle this week. One or two of those guys might even get traded in the next year. But most don't, and when one becomes available, the Celtics and a couple of other teams are in position to outbid almost anyone.

Given that reality, I wondered before the season if some team might use its best trade ammo to chase a younger guy who had just signed a new contract. The two names I mentioned: Middleton and Tobias Harris. It took shockingly little ammo for the Pistons to snare Harris, but Minnesota appears to have been thinking along these lines in pursuing Middleton. It's a bold gambit, and probably a smart one: leverage Milwaukee's disappointing season and their well-known affinity for Rubio, still a starry name, into the sort of all-around wing shooter every smart team craves in the modern NBA.

Minnesota is in desperate need of shooting on the wing, especially since dealing Rubio would probably have required Zach LaVine shift back to point guard and pretend he understands what in the hell he's supposed to do. Andrew Wiggins is shooting 26 percent from deep, and passes up open shots. Tayshaun Prince has made four 3s all season, and Shabazz Muhammad, the Wolves' other non-Wiggins option at small forward, is only a threat on short corner 3s. LaVine has a nice stroke, but he's better off the ball, and prone to nutty off-the-bounce chucks when he controls it.
Karl-Anthony Towns is already a plus shooter at center, and he'll eventually shoot more 3s. The identity of Towns' long-term front-court partner is a mystery, especially with Gorgui Dieng a year from free agency, and the answer will be key in determining the look and feel of Minnesota's roster going forward.

Middleton is an easy fit anywhere. He's shooting 40 percent from deep for the third straight season, and he can hurt you off the dribble in just about every situation. You cannot hide a weaker or mismatched defender on him. He can run a nice pick-and-roll, post up smaller defenders, and blow by guys sprinting to close out on him. He can defend both wing positions, and hold his own against power forwards and point guards in a pinch.

In the NBA of switching defenses, 3-point bombing, and playmaking from all five positions, you almost literally cannot have enough wings who can do all that stuff.

But Middleton can't run an offense, and dealing Rubio for him without any point guard contingency would have left Minnesota without anyone fit for that job. In the short term, that's fine. There's no harm spending the last 25 games of this season experimenting with LaVine and Tyus Jones, losing every night, and drafting high enough to take a shot on Kris Dunn. A core of Wiggins, Towns, Middleton, LaVine, and a couple of other interesting guys would probably draw interest from second-tier starting point guards in free agency over the next two offseasons.

It has become harder to play a non-shooter, and, holy hell, is Rubio a non-shooter. He has never approached 40 percent overall, or even cracked 50 percent on shots within three feet of the basket. His jumper looks smoother after years of work with shooting experts, but he's still shooting just 30 percent from deep and 38 percent on long 2s. And those long 2s are Rondo Shots -- wide-open looks defenses happily concede. Even if you hit them at a 40 percent clip, that still yields a lower points per possession figure than a functional half-court offense.

Rondo ruined the Mavs equal-opportunity offense last season because he is useless when he doesn't have the ball. He's doing better in a more ball-dominant role with the Kings, but it's tough sledding for any offense when the opponent can duck under every screen and dare your opponent to shoot.

Carter-Williams is coming off the bench now in Milwaukee, Elfrid Payton is bricking away in Orlando, and even the pass-happy Hawks quaked in last season's playoffs when dialed-in defenses gave Jeff Teague space to shoot. Rubio makes Teague look like Stephen Curry, and would undoubtedly face the same under-every-pick treatment in the playoffs, when teams craft opponent-specific game plans. Scoring from the post is a challenge, since teams double off Rubio -- even when he is just one pass away.

A point guard who can drain 3s off the dribble is a foundational piece for a good offense. A point guard who can't shoot from anywhere can be a chunk of debris gunking up the machinery.

Rubio also lacks the explosive athleticism John Wall, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, and others used to compensate for their (initially) shaky jumpers. Go under against those guys, and they'll hit the jets, beat you to the other side of the screen, and dunk on some poor help defender. Westbrook developed into a good mid-range shooter, and Wall is at least approaching league-average from deep. Tony Parker made the leap by becoming an elite mid-range shooter.

You can't blame Minnesota for being unsure Rubio is the right point guard for their young core. But that's what makes this hypothetical swap so fascinating: there is something about Rubio that works in the NBA, even with all the indicators blaring that he should be a hugely damaging offensive player. And this goes beyond defense, where he's among the very best at his position -- a long, tough steals machine with a Ginobili-esque sense of when to sneak away from his man and lunge for steals. He and Manu should form a bank-robbing duo after Rubio retires.

The Wolves have been better on the court every year of Rubio's career, sometimes dramatically so, and more efficient on offense in every season but his rookie campaign, per NBA.com. They even did fine when Rubio played without Kevin Love on the floor.

There is a ton of noise in those numbers, obviously. The quality gap between Minny's starters and reserves during Rubio's time, and especially between Rubio and his primary backup over the last two years, probably inflates them. Other stats, including ESPN.com's adjusted plus-minus, paint him as something like an average point guard on offense, though he's even doing well there this season.

But Rubio does something on offense that defies expectations. It's rote to say he's a genius passer, but the dude is a genius freaking passer. There are lots of team executives who still believe in Rubio's ability to lift a team to higher places; he might have more trade value than you'd think, especially since he's on a team-friendly deal through 2018-19.

"We win games when I'm out there," Rubio told me in the fall. "I've just got to stay healthy."

All good point guards can make the paint-by-numbers passes at a high level. Turn around the screen, and hit the big man popping open for a jumper. Read the help defender pinching in from the weak side, and skip a cross-court pass to the open shooter there. If that second big man lurches up from the back line, thread a pass to his guy in the dunker spot.

Rubio makes those passes a bit differently, and a tick earlier, than almost every other point guard. The rhythm of his game is a micro-beat off in a way that helps his teammates. He might kick the ball back to Towns for an open mid-range jumper while Towns' defender is still sliding away from Towns -- and toward Rubio's driving lane. Probe another half-second, as most point guard would, and Towns' defender has time to settle his feet, gather his momentum, and rush back out to challenge Towns.

That skip pass to an open shooter will be airborne while that shooter's man is still sliding toward the paint -- making it almost impossible for him to scurry back out in time.

Rubio has a bunch of tricks that accelerate the timing of his passes. He can whip blind behind-the-back passes with either hand, saving the half-second it might to take to turn his head, face his target, and throw a two-handed pass.

He's one of the last real no-look passers in the NBA. He doesn't lock in on his target, start his passing motion, and only then dramatically snap his head in the other direction. Those phony no-look jobs don't fool defenders as often, or hold their attention as long. When Rubio whips a no-look pass, he actually doesn't look at his target, and that creates an extra blip of confusion for defenses.

Basically: when you get the ball from Rubio, you get a little bit more of a head start than you would receiving the same pass from the typical NBA point guard. He sees you sooner, gets rid of the ball faster, and uses some nifty delivery that widens your advantage. Rubio takes away spacing with his bad shooting, but he opens some up with his passing. If you're ready to drive or shoot the moment a Rubio pass hits your fingertips, you should have plenty of room to execute.


It's great to have as much shooting as possible. Duh. But not everyone can be the Warriors, and several teams are reminding us you can build a perfectly nice offense with blah shooting -- provided you keep the rock moving, so defenses can't load up off your weakest links.

Rubio also sees passes almost no one else sees, and slices defenses apart in transition. He doesn't dribble the air out of the ball -- playing under Rick Adelman will drill that out of you -- and he can be a vicious screener away from it.

People love playing with him, and that matters. It means teammates will play hard for him, and for each other. Rubio finds mismatches almost the moment they happen. During the 2nd half of Golden State's win over the Thunder last night, Kevin Durant found himself one-on-one with Curry around the foul line as Russell Westbrook dribbled along the left side. Durant begged for the ball. Westbrook ran a wild pick-and-roll, and flung a line-drive floater off the backboard. Durant's shoulders sagged, and he pounded his arms against his sides.

That would never happen with Rubio.

There are also plenty of coaches and GMs who see Rubio's shot as fixable, and would bet on him following the same jumper-improvement trajectory as Kidd.

There is a tendency to look at Rubio as both a finished product, and a relic. You can understand why Minnesota would offer him up for Middelton, and they likely would win that exchange. But Rubio's still just 25, and he has spent half his career either injured, or leading terrible teams. There are obvious flaws in his game, but there is also something bigger that just works. I'd love to see him on a better team. Hell, I'd love to see him on a Wolves team with Middleton and Wiggins starting on the wing.

Rubio is something of an unsolved NBA mystery. I can't wait to see where he goes from here -- whether it's in Minnesota, or someplace else.
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-Who would play PG - Lavine/Tyus? NICE. SOUNDS [not] COOL!
-I'm sorry WHAT pick are we willing to part with? I need to know the protections discussed or else... they're not high on this draft class.
-All that said, I like Middleton a lot. They'd still need to solve their PG problem, and there are some veterans out there that they could get, if they had done this deal.
 
I'm not buyin that Rubio trade at all. Guys like Lowe seem to be plugged in but we also know everything is hearsay and agents have writers on puppet strings.

Again, I know this is the Timberwolves we are talking about here....but I am supposed to believe the T-Wolves up and offered the Bucks Ricky Rubio AND a number 1 pick for Middleton...and "the Bucks never seriously entertained the offer." This despite Milwaukee's "interest" in Rubio. And this all happened despite Rubio essentially being the only NBA PG on the roster right now. And the Wolves already owing three protected first round picks to other teams right now.

This team is going to likely have Garnett's salary off the books next year and Martin's salary is also now off. They are going to be flush with cash this summer. Go get what you need.
 
Durant liked his time in Minneapolis when he was married to the young lady from the Lynx :nerd:

Rubio, Zach, Durant, Simmons, KAT
 
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^Is Wiggins your 6th man or what? :lol:

It's a pipe dream. I've thought about it, but the likelihood of it actually happening is probably very slim. It would be amazing though.
 
Nah I said Wiggins in my head but didn't type it :lol:

Zach locking up 6th man for the next decade.
 
RyGuy45 said:
I'm not buyin that Rubio trade at all. Guys like Lowe seem to be plugged in but we also know everything is hearsay and agents have writers on puppet strings.

Again, I know this is the Timberwolves we are talking about here....but I am supposed to believe the T-Wolves up and offered the Bucks Ricky Rubio AND a number 1 pick for Middleton...and "the Bucks never seriously entertained the offer." This despite Milwaukee's "interest" in Rubio. And this all happened despite Rubio essentially being the only NBA PG on the roster right now. And the Wolves already owing three protected first round picks to other teams right now.

This team is going to likely have Garnett's salary off the books next year and Martin's salary is also now off. They are going to be flush with cash this summer. Go get what you need.
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The factors don't really make much sense for them to be even wheeling-and-ALMOST-dealing like Lowe's article that day cites. This was in Feb., the Kaplan complexities and breaking off of talks with G.T. occurred after that, and other reports suggest once the selling of his shares in Memphis and buying off minority share in Minnesota was all fully processed, he'd have direction over the head coach and general manager into the summer.

So I don't know why talks would've advanced to where we are out here droppin lines. Trolling with one of our last few high first-round picks [hopefully] plus the 25-year old PG who's top-5 in AST (with no shooters on wing)/really one of team's only reasonably-aged vets. Oh and he's not playing well enough to be asking for his "second landing spot" already - that's a card he'll want to keep if ya know he goes forever without shooting well.

So are we really out here initiating talks at a deadline where 6 months from then it could be a completely new GM?

The more we go with podcasts and hearing writers talk to one another. I think it's all hearsay too. There's a lot of strange things that go on.


651akathePaul said:
It's a pipe dream. I've thought about it, but the likelihood of it actually happening is probably very slim. It would be amazing though.
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That would be incredible :lol:

Towns and Booker played together in 14-15, wonder how many old Kentucky flames he attracts over the next 5-10 years through his one year plus recruiting phase with Cal, a part of BBN. Even though they weren't close in years: Towns-Cousins frontcourt doesn't fit the dip out of Sacramento eventually if things don't get better narrative but he can chill but win in a longer timeframe here. He'd be afforded that here IMO.
 
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Sam Mitchell gets a great share of criticism from us here, so I actually want to point out how well I thought he coached down the stretch last night in OKC. His string of timeouts, even after a stoppage of play, while unconventional, I thought were very strategic and well-timed. Before the whole thing unraveled or just to prove a point to the young guys, it seemed to pay dividends with how they were able to stay close and eventually close it out with the win. Minnesota made quite a few stupid decisions, LaVine stood out to make some boneheaded turnovers down the stretch, yet they still staved off any huge OKC runs and remained tough in crunch time. It was fun to see and a great win. :nthat:
 
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Sources: Delay in Wolves sale exposes Grizzlies ownership drama

By Brian Windhorst, Zach Lowe

The uncertainty surrounding the potential acquisition of the Minnesota Timberwolves by a minority owner of the Memphis Grizzlies has exposed turmoil within the Memphis ownership group, clouding future control of both franchises, sources told ESPN.com.

Grizzlies minority owner and co-executive chairman Steve Kaplan, a California venture capitalist, had planned to sell his Grizzlies stake to buy 30 percent of the Wolves with a path to eventually take over as the Wolves' controlling owner. However, sources tell ESPN's Brian Windhorst and Zach Lowe, a dispute between Kaplan and Grizzlies owner Robert Pera over shares of the team led to behind-the-scenes trouble that took months to resolve.

It was recently settled after Kaplan threatened to initiate an arbitration procedure, sources said. The terms of the settlement are confidential, and multiple sources declined to comment on them. NBA owners cannot formally sue each other under league rules, and minority owners typically must sell shares of one team before buying into another.

The resulting delay has put Kaplan's deal with Wolves owner Glen Taylor in jeopardy. Kaplan and an investor went to Minneapolis earlier this month to meet with Taylor to salvage the process.

Meanwhile, sources say Pera has been distant from Memphis over the past year and has excluded minority owners from any meaningful participation in team decision-making, which is his right as controlling owner. Kaplan is worried that the market for his minority interest will dry up once potential buyers complete their due diligence on Pera's ownership techniques, sources said.

In selling his minority stake on the open market, Kaplan has been asking for close to $100 million for his 14 percent share -- pegging the team's value at roughly $700 million -- a big-enough number to turn off some potential investors, sources said.

The drama could drag on, particularly because of an unusual clause in the Memphis ownership agreements that Kaplan can trigger in October 2017 -- on the five-year anniversary of their purchase of the team with Pera.

At that time, Kaplan and fellow minority owner Daniel Straus, an East Coast health care magnate and the team's vice chairman, have an option to make a bid for controlling interest in the team at a price of their choice, sources said. At that point, Pera would have two options: buy out Kaplan and Straus at that named price, or sell his shares to them based on the same valuation. Control of the decision ultimately would rest with Pera.

The so-called "buy-sell" clause is merely an option, and it is unclear whether Kaplan or Straus would ever trigger it -- especially because Pera could simply force them to pay up if they named a wildly high price.

It is relevant because it would give Kaplan a possible path to team ownership if his deal to buy into the Wolves doesn't finalize.

Kaplan had been making plans to become involved with the Wolves and consult on front-office, coaching and roster moves, sources said. He was expected to spend time traveling with the team to get to know the players during the season. Those plans have been scrapped, and inside the Wolves there is a growing assumption that Taylor will remain as primary decision-maker for the near term. This has been received as good news by incumbent general manager Milt Newton and interim coach Sam Mitchell, sources say.

Taylor has put the Wolves up for sale in the past only to change his mind later. Amid the Grizzlies' drama and the Wolves' collection of young talent, Taylor has slowed the sale process and is now reconsidering whether he wants to sell at all, two sources close to the owner say.

After looking to sell to local buyers, Taylor took the Wolves off the market in 2014 when he sold a share of the team to Flip Saunders and made him team president. Saunders planned to take several years to attempt to assemble his own group to buy the team from Taylor while rebuilding the roster in the wake of the Kevin Love trade, sources say. He recruited Wolves legend Kevin Garnett to return to the team and possibly eventually become an investor. But Saunders died in October, leaving Taylor to re-evaluate his options.

The seeds for all of this were planted in 2012 when Pera, who founded a technology company in San Jose, bought controlling interest in the Grizzlies. He had planned to buy the team on his own from outgoing owner Michael Heisley, but a sudden downturn in Pera's finances between the time the deal for the sale was struck and when it closed forced him to bring on nearly 20 other owners to meet the $377 million purchase price.

The arrangement, which took months to assemble and nearly fell apart several times, got Pera his dream of owning a team. But it left him relatively weak because of the partnership deals he had to strike. Shortly after Pera took over, the Grizzlies made several cost-cutting trades, including moving Rudy Gay to the Toronto Raptors and trading away a future first-round pick to the Cleveland Cavaliers to reduce payroll.

Other minority partners include Justin Timberlake, Ashley and Peyton Manning and former Grizzlies player Elliot Perry, plus influential Memphis business leaders. Pera didn't have previous relationships with most of them, and he ended up owning less than 30 percent himself.

Pera took his company, wireless technology provider Ubiquiti Networks, public in 2011 with a stock price of $15. Within six months, the stock hit $34 and he became a billionaire at age 34. He immediately used his new wealth to pursue the Grizzlies franchise, which had been on the market for years. By the late summer of 2012, though, Ubiquiti's fortunes turned, and the stock plunged to less than $9. It decimated Pera's net worth and endangered his purchase, but he was determined to acquire the team.

Ubiquiti's performance has been volatile ever since, soaring in 2014 but then falling back and recovering again. Last year, Ubiquiti said it had been scammed out of $46.7 million in an email spoofing fraud.

Pera's purchase of the Grizzlies ultimately worked out. In less than four years since Pera bought the team for $377 million, Forbes valued the team at $780 million in January.
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Decent road win last night in Memphis, even though the Grizz had I think 4 guys playing on 10 day contracts :lol:

Didn't like to see Wiggins get worked so badly physically against Lance.

Too many stretches last night where they couldn't get anything going offensively, not getting even decent looks at the basket for 3-4 possessions in a row.
 
Any chance he was not caring since the Grizz had so many injuries. I do wonder until he bulks up can he play the 3 and should be at the 2 instead?
 
On offense, guys should play slightly more inside out. through Karl. you can have the big fella emphasize getting the ball back to the perimeter off help if you want your guards to shoot, he's good enough to ask that of him.
 
Team has shown some signs lately of actually enjoying playing together, but there were times yesterday where they were up 10 on the road and they would look like a team down 10 on the road complaining to one another about who to blame for a mistake/turnover. Lot of rigidness, want to see a new coach come in and blend in seamlessly and see what happens.

Shabazz's final shot in Phoenix for the potential tie/win whatever it was was extremely sad and was literally him hitting his head on his own ceiling if we're talking about his career. He'll never be able to consistently hit shots against quality defenders and we're veeeerry far off from him ever being reliable in clutch situations. He's already proven a number of times this year (in Dallas, in PHX) that that is the case. I've criticized him heavily on here and he's been showing why as of late. Jim Pete's right, he does unique things - it doesn't matter when you're a player whose skillset literally needs a perfect 4-man combination 'around it' in order for the player to be a plus when on the court.

What do you guys think of Ben Simmons, a non-shooter, being added to this lineup? Is he the 4 in the modernized NBA next to Towns? In this situation, instead of having your stretch-4 and non-offensive big at the 5, you'd have a stretch-5, and a non-shooter at the 4 who can kind of hang around the basket and clean up. Create on pure skill in the middle of a scrambled possession. He's a poor shooter but a great rebounder so I think it could work. Then you'd use Dieng with Towns when you have more physical matchups that must be addressed at the end of games or when trailing and a bigger deficit could be looming.
 
Man, our bench is tough to watch. 8 points against the Warriors and I think 13 against the Kings. :x :x :x

Shabazz is starting to bug me again...plays too out of control much of the time.
 
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Wow, check these numbers out.

Since Jan. 27 (25 games)

Towns - 35 MPG, 21.9 PPG, 11.4 REB, 1.7 BLK, .570 FG
Dieng - 33 MPG, 13.6 PPG, 8.7 REB, 1.5 BLK, .561 FG
Wiggins - 35 MPG, 20.5 PPG, .479 FG, .388 3 PT
LaVine - 35 MPG, 18.0 PPG, .507 FG, .450 3PT
Rubio - 31 MPG, 11.4 PPG, .418 FG, 9.3 AST, 1.8 STL

Wolves in that span are 9-16 (.360) including losses to the Lakers, Pelicans, Knicks, Bucks, and Suns.
 
Their second unit blows. With what I'm seeing of the first unit, Minnesota can compete with anybody. The problem is that their bench comes in and Tyus turns it over and takes low percentage shots, Shabazz hoards the ball and has inconsistent shooting accuracy, Prince is lifeless and Payne is lost...

Everything from the second half of the season has been encouraging from the core group, but what's obvious now is depth. Wolves are on the right track, but I think with a nice hit in the draft and a few solid signings, they could be much much improved next season.
 
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Ingram

Hield

IDK we need a shooter in this draft BAD. I can't continue to watch this team fo 3 for 8 as a team from 3 anymore.
 
Hield is my hope considering where they might be picking. I know nothing about Dragan Bender, but that's a cool name. :lol:
 
651akathePaul said:
I'd rather not. Simmons is the greater talent, but I don't trust him. Feel more comfortable with Ingram. I certainly don't trust Minnesota with the choice. :lol:
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Now I wish I would have watched some more Duke bball to see Ingram's game - can't speak to it. **** Vitale endorsed Ingram at #1.

As to Simmons, idk, I watched several LSU games and wasn't overly impressed. Not very active and he didn't seem to want to take over (or even try to take over) a close game. Maybe he was playing cautious to avoid injury?
 
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651akathePaul said:
Their second unit blows. With what I'm seeing of the first unit, Minnesota can compete with anybody. The problem is that their bench comes in and Tyus turns it over and takes low percentage shots, Shabazz hoards the ball and has inconsistent shooting accuracy, Prince is lifeless and Payne is lost...

Everything from the second half of the season has been encouraging from the core group, but what's obvious now is depth. Wolves are on the right track, but I think with a nice hit in the draft and a few solid signings, they could be much much improved next season.
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C'mon man, leave Prince out of this :lol: While he's not a stud, he does what's expected of him imo.

I agree with your sentiment on the others though :frown: :x
 
Loving how Dieng's game is developing. His jumper the other night was money...

His rim defense against the Warriors too was stellar. Wolves should've won that game
 
Payne is just not an NBA player at this point.

We should conside buying out Pek at this point as well.

Use our cap space to find shooters, and length.
 
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