THEE OFFICIAL 2019-2020 NBA OFFSEASON THREAD: VICTORY LAP

[trynafeelmink]

Michael Jordan had his best season when the pace was the same as it is now.....

Oscar Robinson averaged a triple double playing at an even faster pace than today...against....well, I won’t disrespect those players he played with. He played with who he played with.

Let’s not even do wilt. And some of the 90s scorers benefited from no help defense and some mo’ ****, even when playing at a slow pace. It’s all relative. The greats are great by whatever circumstance they are in...and they produce.

Point is....great players benefit from a set of unique circumstances unique to them over time. It be insane to try and diminish one era of stats...while holding up another as “true” stats because of the inconsistencies. The only Consistency is great players being great regardless.

What were essentially doing here is discrediting players for improving as basketball players...and playing smarter basketball . We have guys maximizing their talent. That’s a GOOD thing.

Again this isn't simply about the pace, and there have been many posts in here already highlighting the big differences.

Also guys are maximizing CERTAIN aspects of basketball, and have diminished in other aspects as well.

Nobody is saying that these players aren't great, but taking a player like Harden and comparing his stats to other elite scorers from the past and trying to make comparisons based off that is ridiculous w/o the context.

rule changes and the philosophy of basketball have a lot to do with this, especially when it comes to things like Fg% and ppg.

If Mike is exchanging 4-5 midrange shots for three point shots his numbers go up by a point or two per game, If He goes from driving into the lane with two offensive players & two defenders posted down there...... to simply having to beat his man 1 on 1 and kicking out to a shooter once help comes, Fg% & assist likely go up.

Trying to grab boards when there's several big men in the paint is a bit harder than grabbing boards when a team is playing a 6'9 forward at center instead, or there 7 foot center is now out of the paint guarding the 3pt line. Context matters.

 

[B Sox]

Russ is arguably the best rebounding point guard ever. I give him a lot of ****, but that is one thing he is incredibly good at, on top of having his teammates box out for him.

If he got to be THE GUY on a team in the 80s for a couple years, he probably would've averaged a triple double then too.

 

[MVP]

The bar is winning . That tells you who's the best of each era, how much better are you than your peers at the ultimate goal? Rings are the great equalizer that neutralizes all the differences over the years. When all your competition is playing by the same rules, how often do you come out on top? No way around it

"Winning is overrated"

 

[wavycrocket]

Again, I don't mean to diminish or hold one era over another. Just want to be clear how DIFFERENT the game is today. I'm not sure you can deny it.

While I agree that players have got better, organizations have also added analytics guys who seem to have a huge say in how a team plays.

Y’all are saying the stats are “inflated” etc. Why would you isolate the stats being “inflated” to today’s nba?

Nobody discredits the players in the past. It’s really just a small subset of Bron fans who try to tear MJ down....and those who say Harden is as good as a scorer as Kobe....because “F Kobe”, and that’s true .

All in all...you find way more old heads....talking down on the generations after them because of simple **** like “rule change” or “how the game is played”. And this has gone on....decade after decade.

I’ll post this one more time to drive the point. Because y’all are turning into Wilt/Russell in this video. These dudes literally said they’d average 70ppg in the 90s because the game was soft and due to rule change to benefit the offense. You can find that sentiment LITTERED throughout basketball talk...year by year...decade by decade...generation by generation.

@4:50 second mark:

 

[wavycrocket]

The bar is winning . That tells you who's the best of each era, how much better are you than your peers at the ultimate goal? Rings are the great equalizer that neutralizes all the differences over the years. When all your competition is playing by the same rules, how often do you come out on top? No way around it

I’m talking about the statistical bar since that’s what we were referring too. Of course the bar is winning. You know where I stand on this.

 

[addict4sneakers]

Y’all are saying the stats are “inflated” etc. Why would you isolate the stats being “inflated” to today’s nba?

Nobody discredits the players in the past. It’s really just a small subset of Bron fans who try to tear MJ down....and those who say Harden is as good as a scorer as Kobe....because “F Kobe”, and that’s true .

All in all...you find way more old heads....talking down on the generations after them because of simple **** like “rule change” or “how the game is played”. And this has gone on....decade after decade.

I’ll post this one more time to drive the point. Because y’all are turning into Wilt/Russell in this video. These dudes literally said they’d average 70ppg in the 90s because the game was soft and due to rule change to benefit the offense. You can find that sentiment LITTERED throughout basketball talk...year by year...decade by decade...generation by generation.

@4:50 second mark:

And this. Same dude that let Toni kukoc take work off his block

 

[MVP]

Not surprisingly the analytics guys whose genesis was really in baseball with emphasis on numbers has seeped its way into basketball and subsequently that's now how people are trying to frame greatness. In baseball winning is definitely demphasized but if you have numbers you're a gawd.

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

I’m talking about the statistical bar since that’s what we were referring too. Of course the bar is winning. You know where I stand on this.

Sometimes I'm not sure

 

[JD617]

There are other differences than just pace but Wavy is right as far as league average pace. The game became a rock fight during the '90s and early '00s but it was faster throughout the '70s and '80s than it is today (and '60s too but the data we have only goes back to '74).

 

[wavycrocket]

And this. Same dude that let Toni kukoc take work off his block

I’ll never forget when Tim Hardaway of the Run TMC Warriors....the same Tim Hardaway who shot more 3 point attempts a game in the 90s than Kyrie Irving (7 a game)....got on Colin Cowherd couch you complain that the stats of today’s nba were inflated.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

I’ll post this one more time to drive the point. Because y’all are turning into Wilt/Russell in this video. These dudes literally said they’d average 70ppg in the 90s because the game was soft and due to rule change to benefit the offense. You can find that sentiment LITTERED throughout basketball talk...year by year...decade by decade...generation by generation.

@4:50 second mark:

To be clear, I'm not saying this. My point is only that the stats we see today can't be analyzed through the same prism. You have to acknowledge context.

If anything, my point has more to do with players and the game hyper focusing on efficiency in a way that they had never done before. The impact of analytics and the way teams play is undeniable. Not once did I say the game was soft or that the players aren't as talented. Just that the game and the way players play has changed along with a lot of rules to promote efficient offense. You're conflating.

 

[Bend_The_Knee]

Jalen and Jacoby has to be the worst show.



Jalen Rose tries way too hard.

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

Not surprisingly the analytics guys whose genesis was really in baseball with emphasis on numbers has seeped its way into basketball and subsequently that's now how people are trying to frame greatness. In baseball winning is definitely demphasized but if you have numbers you're a gawd.

I agree with most of this but it's alot harder to win in baseball. You could bat 1000 and hit a homerun every time and still get mopped. Truly a team game. Only 8 teams make the playoffs etc.

But in basketball..you're telling me the supposed greatest offensive player OF ALL TIME is 'unfortunate' to go up against better competition..EVERY YEAR of his career? Same guy who ran off the player who helped him get closest to winning in favor of playing with a guy who those same analytics nerds say is an abomination? C'mon now

 

[antidope]

It's that time to take things out of context huh. Winning is over rated in the sense that it's used as the end all be all argument. Greatness can be evaluated outside of that.

 

[wavycrocket]

Ahh...so this is really a “Harden” hate post in disguise by Lakers/Kobe fans....

I see it .

 

[addict4sneakers]

Oh this the secret harden slander thread now

 

[MVP]

 

[freeze]

It's gotta tell you something about the game when Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double and it takes 55 years for someone else to do it then all of a sudden Russ does it 3 years in a row and the year he doesn't a sophomore steps up and does the same thing. It's just hard to be blown away by that. Again I'm not hating but when stuff like that happens it takes a higher benchmark to be impressed by statistics. You gotta raise the bar even higher because the game has changed so much. Something like 6 rings, two 3 peats and undefeated in the Finals stands the test of time and will always be impressive

james cameron will raise the bar.

 

[B Sox]

Ahh...so this is really a “Harden” hate post in disguise by Lakers/Kobe fans....

I see it .

Of course. They just want to say whatever they can to discredit him. Rinse and repeat.

 

[MajinZuub]

To be clear, I'm not saying this. My point is only that the stats we see today can't be analyzed through the same prism. You have to acknowledge context.

If anything, my point has more to do with players and the game hyper focusing on efficiency in a way that they had never done before. The impact of analytics and the way teams play is undeniable. Not once did I say the game was soft or that the players aren't as talented. Just that the game and the way players play has changed along with a lot of rules to promote efficient offense. You're conflating.

This issue is counter-arguments are centered around this whole discussion being a thing to "discredit" players.
People keep holding onto pace like 1000s of more 3 pointers aren't being shot now and ball movement works way more outside the arc instead of the post being an initial entry point.
Yes, the great players we have right now are GREAT; yes, I also think that they benefit from changes to the game.
Old heads saying they'd dominate this era is literally old head talk, not sure why that's a point of reference for anything substantial

This discussion started with Luka but of course y'all bring Kobe into it

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

Yall find a way to make everything about 13 . Grow up

 

[MajinZuub]

Yall find a way to make everything about 13 . Grow up

I'd love to see how many times Kobe has been brought up in relation to Harden by Lakers fans vs Lakers haters in here

 

[finessesosa]

I guess you know better than Jerry West ha?

Jerry ain’t got **** on me

 

[B Sox]

I'll still never understand Lakers fans obsession with Harden when their team hasn't even been relevant until now while he's been in the league.

Like, I could see if they had some playoff series against each other and Harden completely sucked, but that isn't remotely the case

 

[wavycrocket]

To be clear, I'm not saying this. My point is only that the stats we see today can't be analyzed through the same prism. You have to acknowledge context.

If anything, my point has more to do with players and the game hyper focusing on efficiency in a way that they had never done before. The impact of analytics and the way teams play is undeniable. Not once did I say the game was soft or that the players aren't as talented. Just that the game and the way players play has changed along with a lot of rules to promote efficient offense. You're conflating.

Am I really conflating when you said this:

I wont call it a fluke, but I will say A LOT of players are benefiting from this era of no defense and unlimited threes. I don't mean to take away from certain players, but this feels the outcome of the shift the NBA made after the '90s of adjusting rules to promote scoring and increase the speed of the game.

Is James Harden still averaging damn near 40ppg?

“Benefiting from no defense” is a shot, no matter how you tried to couch it. And it completely makes the league today seem like players aren’t playing any defense league wide. That’s not true.