Thee Official LeBron James = Scottie Pippen and Dywane Wade = Michael Jordan for the 2011 Finals

[Betonblck]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So at this point, I have asked this before, is it EVER possible for LeBron to be considered Mike's equal. Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit? I think folks will put an * beside those rings since he didn't do it by himself.

Almost like how nobody gives Kobe any credit for those 3 rings he wont with Big Shaq, as if Shaq was out there alone.

And what gets lost in all of this is Wade's legacy. If Wade is there for all of the rings that LeBron wins, why would LeBron's legacy somehow surpass Wades? People don't consider how great of a career Wade has had so far. So why are people so quick to say LeBron > Jordan, when he has someone on his team that can make an even better argument for being compared to Mike. (I don't see the need to compare anyone to him but since people do it I will play the game for the sake of discussion.)

he will be in the same realm as barry bonds. lebron cant win for losing. and like ive said before no matter what any player does mj will be seen as goat. Like elvis will be seen as king of rock, pac as the greatest rapper, ruth as the best baseball player, wayne as the best hockey player.

Both of ya'll don't know what ya'll talking about here.  (I said "here", as in just this quote, you know ya'll my boys)

When Wade won with an aging Shaq, it proved that you could insert any top 10 SG with Shaq and win Championships because he was so dominant and the league had no big men to match up with Shaq.  Having Shaq on your team back then was like a cheat code.  Shaq and a team of scrubs could go to the finals, all he needs is another average player to win chips. 

Shaq is one of the most dominant big men in the history of the NBA.

Why would Bron get any credit for winning Championships when his role is to stand on the 3 point line and watch Wade win the games for him.  Wade is going to have the Finals MVP trophies.

 

[Betonblck]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So at this point, I have asked this before, is it EVER possible for LeBron to be considered Mike's equal. Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit? I think folks will put an * beside those rings since he didn't do it by himself.

Almost like how nobody gives Kobe any credit for those 3 rings he wont with Big Shaq, as if Shaq was out there alone.

And what gets lost in all of this is Wade's legacy. If Wade is there for all of the rings that LeBron wins, why would LeBron's legacy somehow surpass Wades? People don't consider how great of a career Wade has had so far. So why are people so quick to say LeBron > Jordan, when he has someone on his team that can make an even better argument for being compared to Mike. (I don't see the need to compare anyone to him but since people do it I will play the game for the sake of discussion.)

he will be in the same realm as barry bonds. lebron cant win for losing. and like ive said before no matter what any player does mj will be seen as goat. Like elvis will be seen as king of rock, pac as the greatest rapper, ruth as the best baseball player, wayne as the best hockey player.

Both of ya'll don't know what ya'll talking about here.  (I said "here", as in just this quote, you know ya'll my boys)

When Wade won with an aging Shaq, it proved that you could insert any top 10 SG with Shaq and win Championships because he was so dominant and the league had no big men to match up with Shaq.  Having Shaq on your team back then was like a cheat code.  Shaq and a team of scrubs could go to the finals, all he needs is another average player to win chips. 

Shaq is one of the most dominant big men in the history of the NBA.

Why would Bron get any credit for winning Championships when his role is to stand on the 3 point line and watch Wade win the games for him.  Wade is going to have the Finals MVP trophies.

 

[cafinest23]

^Thats a tough agruement to make because DWade was not an average player in 2006.

However LeBron is content with deffering to Wade in the Finals an yeah I understand he has the better matchup but Jordan didn't let Pippen shoot more because he had the better matchup did he? But I don't blame LeBron because it's clear he's a pass first player and not a 100% attack player but once again that makes him the polarizing figure he is in today's NBA Leauge.

 

[cafinest23]

^Thats a tough agruement to make because DWade was not an average player in 2006.

However LeBron is content with deffering to Wade in the Finals an yeah I understand he has the better matchup but Jordan didn't let Pippen shoot more because he had the better matchup did he? But I don't blame LeBron because it's clear he's a pass first player and not a 100% attack player but once again that makes him the polarizing figure he is in today's NBA Leauge.

 

[doyung9]

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates.

Mind you, I'm about to be VERY liberal in what I'm saying and should be taken as examples not end-all be-all facts or points.

91 - Can Mike dethrone Magic and Showtime? Check

92 - Mike or Clyde? Who's the better 2 guard in the league? Check

93 - Can he do it 3 times in a row? Can he stop Barkley, the MVP? Check

Sidebar : Scottie plays a huge part in 96 and 97. I will not pretend to omit that or deny that he became a much more complete player in the 2 year MJ lay off, but he was NEVER considered the player "we" now consider Wade or LeBron.

96 - 72 !$$##$% wins. GP did a nice job in the finals, but seriously, he led his team in scoring every game. Came back from a 2 year lay-off.

97 - Jordan again leads the Bulls to # 5.

98 - Jazz won the season series, had home court, won game 1. Game 3, Chicago 96-Utah 54. A 42 point victory in the FINALS. Game 6, Pippen plays 26 minutes, Jordan goes on to score 45 in 44 minutes, hits the game winner.

What's going to be the Miami Heat scenario? Can LeBron and Wade co-exist enough to win the Championship? What the hell kind of challenge is that?

Can anyone legitimately give me an instance where Scottie Pippen just bailed Mike out? If you can, tell me, I don't in all seriousness remember it.

Now I want you to compare that to the current Miami Heat situation where they have the 2 Best players in the league and will be favored to win every championship together from this point out as long as LeBron stops quitting and gives Wade a little bit of help.

Honestly, a guy like Derrick Rose has a better chance to make a run at Mike. Let him win 4-5 chips with that squad of role players he has now and I'd throw him in the discussion.

Again, all just shop talk and what not. But I can't even consider the argument with them as teammates, because of the current talent pool in the league, the fact that neither is a big man, etc.

 

[doyung9]

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates.

Mind you, I'm about to be VERY liberal in what I'm saying and should be taken as examples not end-all be-all facts or points.

91 - Can Mike dethrone Magic and Showtime? Check

92 - Mike or Clyde? Who's the better 2 guard in the league? Check

93 - Can he do it 3 times in a row? Can he stop Barkley, the MVP? Check

Sidebar : Scottie plays a huge part in 96 and 97. I will not pretend to omit that or deny that he became a much more complete player in the 2 year MJ lay off, but he was NEVER considered the player "we" now consider Wade or LeBron.

96 - 72 !$$##$% wins. GP did a nice job in the finals, but seriously, he led his team in scoring every game. Came back from a 2 year lay-off.

97 - Jordan again leads the Bulls to # 5.

98 - Jazz won the season series, had home court, won game 1. Game 3, Chicago 96-Utah 54. A 42 point victory in the FINALS. Game 6, Pippen plays 26 minutes, Jordan goes on to score 45 in 44 minutes, hits the game winner.

What's going to be the Miami Heat scenario? Can LeBron and Wade co-exist enough to win the Championship? What the hell kind of challenge is that?

Can anyone legitimately give me an instance where Scottie Pippen just bailed Mike out? If you can, tell me, I don't in all seriousness remember it.

Now I want you to compare that to the current Miami Heat situation where they have the 2 Best players in the league and will be favored to win every championship together from this point out as long as LeBron stops quitting and gives Wade a little bit of help.

Honestly, a guy like Derrick Rose has a better chance to make a run at Mike. Let him win 4-5 chips with that squad of role players he has now and I'd throw him in the discussion.

Again, all just shop talk and what not. But I can't even consider the argument with them as teammates, because of the current talent pool in the league, the fact that neither is a big man, etc.

 

[Humbled]

NOBODY can touch Mike. NOBODY.

 

[Humbled]

NOBODY can touch Mike. NOBODY.

 

[2o6]

im not a lebron fan , but the bulls where 55-27 wthout him , lost in 7 in the ecf.
cavs are

.....isnt it safe to assume he meant more to the cavs then jordan to the bulls

 

[2o6]

im not a lebron fan , but the bulls where 55-27 wthout him , lost in 7 in the ecf.
cavs are

.....isnt it safe to assume he meant more to the cavs then jordan to the bulls

 

[5am6oody72]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So at this point, I have asked this before, is it EVER possible for LeBron to be considered Mike's equal. Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit? I think folks will put an * beside those rings since he didn't do it by himself.

Almost like how nobody gives Kobe any credit for those 3 rings he wont with Big Shaq, as if Shaq was out there alone.

And what gets lost in all of this is Wade's legacy. If Wade is there for all of the rings that LeBron wins, why would LeBron's legacy somehow surpass Wades? People don't consider how great of a career Wade has had so far. So why are people so quick to say LeBron > Jordan, when he has someone on his team that can make an even better argument for being compared to Mike. (I don't see the need to compare anyone to him but since people do it I will play the game for the sake of discussion.)

Well to me once he joined the Heat it made it damn near impossible for him to be considered up there with Mike simply because he had Wade. However, I didn't ever anticipate him being this much of a secondary player in the Finals. I know championships are won as a team, but if we're talking about individual legacy, the role that the player played in winning that championship has to enter the discussion does it not? Look at his play thus far in the Finals, he hasn't been a factor hardly at all aside from Game 1. Hell, forget Jordan, Paul Pierce has been a better player in the 08 Finals than Lebron has this year. It's not indicative of his skill as a player, because we KNOW he can dominate since we've seen him do it in the playoffs before. But that doesn't matter cus he hasn't done it yet. I know he's played good defense at times, but he stifled Rose and involved himself in the offense in the Bulls' series; what's changed now?
Yea, if the Heat win the title you can't take that away from Bron just like you can't take Kobe's first three away from him. But winning a championship while being the focal point of the team carries more weight than just being along for the ride. Kobe has won 2 championships where he was truly that focal point, and 2 others where he played a major role in closing out games and put up big numbers. MJ won 6 where he was the focal point and the closer. So far Lebron's impact on this series has been more comparable to Kobe's first ring, where Shaq was the clear MVP and focal point of the team. Lebron has 9 points in the fourth quarter for the entire series so far and the offense hasn't run through him. If he can lead a team to the finals when he's only 22, you would have thought he'd be doing better than this and playing a bigger role in the finals at 26.

Even aside from scoring, Lebron has not been a great playmaker or facilitator like he's capable of either. I know he has fairly good assist numbers, but from what I've seen not very many of those have been on plays created/made by him, and his assist totals are way down from what he's done in the past. If he's standing on the perimeter and the ball comes to him and Haslem is open on the baseline for a jumper, it's still the right play to make. But anybody can make that pass. James Jones can make that pass for me. Lebron's not out there to stand on the perimeter and pass the ball off like he's some dude on a 10 day contract just happy to be there. He's out there to make plays, with or without the ball. Instead of moving without the ball and working to create shot opportunities for himself he has been content to just observe Wade. Even when Wade wasn't in the game he chose not to run the offense through himself and just passed it off to guys who aren't good at creating their own shots. There's a difference between being a pass-first player and a passive player. Steve Nash is a pass first player but you better believe he's going to be creating shots for guys and taking some of his own when it's crunch time. Honestly Lebron has looked scared of the moment the past couple games.

Sure, Wade has been PHENOMENAL in this series, but that doesn't mean Bron has to just be a spectator. If he had played with the aggressiveness he did  during the season and playoffs they would easily be up 3-1. I still have a feeling he's going to turn it around and the Heat will win the series, but I thought he'd come out last game and light it up after disappearing in the 4th quarter of game 3 and he did the opposite.

But history has shown that when he has a game where he struggles he comes back in a big way; so it'll be exciting to see what he brings tonight. 

 

[5am6oody72]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

So at this point, I have asked this before, is it EVER possible for LeBron to be considered Mike's equal. Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit? I think folks will put an * beside those rings since he didn't do it by himself.

Almost like how nobody gives Kobe any credit for those 3 rings he wont with Big Shaq, as if Shaq was out there alone.

And what gets lost in all of this is Wade's legacy. If Wade is there for all of the rings that LeBron wins, why would LeBron's legacy somehow surpass Wades? People don't consider how great of a career Wade has had so far. So why are people so quick to say LeBron > Jordan, when he has someone on his team that can make an even better argument for being compared to Mike. (I don't see the need to compare anyone to him but since people do it I will play the game for the sake of discussion.)

Well to me once he joined the Heat it made it damn near impossible for him to be considered up there with Mike simply because he had Wade. However, I didn't ever anticipate him being this much of a secondary player in the Finals. I know championships are won as a team, but if we're talking about individual legacy, the role that the player played in winning that championship has to enter the discussion does it not? Look at his play thus far in the Finals, he hasn't been a factor hardly at all aside from Game 1. Hell, forget Jordan, Paul Pierce has been a better player in the 08 Finals than Lebron has this year. It's not indicative of his skill as a player, because we KNOW he can dominate since we've seen him do it in the playoffs before. But that doesn't matter cus he hasn't done it yet. I know he's played good defense at times, but he stifled Rose and involved himself in the offense in the Bulls' series; what's changed now?
Yea, if the Heat win the title you can't take that away from Bron just like you can't take Kobe's first three away from him. But winning a championship while being the focal point of the team carries more weight than just being along for the ride. Kobe has won 2 championships where he was truly that focal point, and 2 others where he played a major role in closing out games and put up big numbers. MJ won 6 where he was the focal point and the closer. So far Lebron's impact on this series has been more comparable to Kobe's first ring, where Shaq was the clear MVP and focal point of the team. Lebron has 9 points in the fourth quarter for the entire series so far and the offense hasn't run through him. If he can lead a team to the finals when he's only 22, you would have thought he'd be doing better than this and playing a bigger role in the finals at 26.

Even aside from scoring, Lebron has not been a great playmaker or facilitator like he's capable of either. I know he has fairly good assist numbers, but from what I've seen not very many of those have been on plays created/made by him, and his assist totals are way down from what he's done in the past. If he's standing on the perimeter and the ball comes to him and Haslem is open on the baseline for a jumper, it's still the right play to make. But anybody can make that pass. James Jones can make that pass for me. Lebron's not out there to stand on the perimeter and pass the ball off like he's some dude on a 10 day contract just happy to be there. He's out there to make plays, with or without the ball. Instead of moving without the ball and working to create shot opportunities for himself he has been content to just observe Wade. Even when Wade wasn't in the game he chose not to run the offense through himself and just passed it off to guys who aren't good at creating their own shots. There's a difference between being a pass-first player and a passive player. Steve Nash is a pass first player but you better believe he's going to be creating shots for guys and taking some of his own when it's crunch time. Honestly Lebron has looked scared of the moment the past couple games.

Sure, Wade has been PHENOMENAL in this series, but that doesn't mean Bron has to just be a spectator. If he had played with the aggressiveness he did  during the season and playoffs they would easily be up 3-1. I still have a feeling he's going to turn it around and the Heat will win the series, but I thought he'd come out last game and light it up after disappearing in the 4th quarter of game 3 and he did the opposite.

But history has shown that when he has a game where he struggles he comes back in a big way; so it'll be exciting to see what he brings tonight. 

 

[truthgetsbusy]

Originally Posted by doyung9

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates. 
  

exactly

Wade = great player, take charge player....but he's not the best player on his team
Lebron = great player, maybe best in the league...but defers to lesser teamates

LeBrons mental make-up is just weird and stops him from reaching his potential

 

[truthgetsbusy]

Originally Posted by doyung9

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates. 
  

exactly

Wade = great player, take charge player....but he's not the best player on his team
Lebron = great player, maybe best in the league...but defers to lesser teamates

LeBrons mental make-up is just weird and stops him from reaching his potential

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by doyung9

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates.

So..... You're saying neither Wade or James is the single best player of all time?  Shocking.

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by doyung9

IMO, neither Wade or LeBron can touch Mike as long as they're teammates.

So..... You're saying neither Wade or James is the single best player of all time?  Shocking.

 

[jd214]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

NOBODY can touch Mike. NOBODY.

QFT

MJ >>>

 

[jd214]

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

NOBODY can touch Mike. NOBODY.

QFT

MJ >>>

 

[2o6]

2008-2009 season stats

Dwyane 30-7-5

Lebron 28-7-7


dont let the media tell u how to think.

ppl belittle his 35 ppg during his finals mvp run

how he dominated the olympics with kobe/lebron etc

 

[2o6]

2008-2009 season stats

Dwyane 30-7-5

Lebron 28-7-7


dont let the media tell u how to think.

ppl belittle his 35 ppg during his finals mvp run

how he dominated the olympics with kobe/lebron etc

 

[dade b0y]

Originally Posted by doyung9

Honestly, a guy like Derrick Rose has a better chance to make a run at Mike. Let him win 4-5 chips with that squad of role players he has now and I'd throw him in the discussion.  

 Wow.

 

[dade b0y]

Originally Posted by doyung9

Honestly, a guy like Derrick Rose has a better chance to make a run at Mike. Let him win 4-5 chips with that squad of role players he has now and I'd throw him in the discussion.  

 Wow.

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit?

Of corse? What kind of idiot wouldn't? It's a team accomplishment and if they win, that means they have the best team. What's difficult to understand about this?
Is there a single person in the world who thinks the 1980's Lakers 5 championships aren't legit? The Heat have the 2 best players in the league. So what? Big deal. The 1980's Lakers had 2 of the top 5 greatest players of all time. 

The only time people try to bring up these "legitimacy" argument is when they try to discredit another player's legacy because they want to believe that their favorite player is better. The Shaq/Kobe argument is the perfect example. Kobe has 5 rings and absolutely deserves every single one of them. Was Shaq the more valuable for those first 3? Yes. So what? Who cares? You know what makes you great in a TEAM sport? Playing your part. Doing what your team needs to be successful.

The only time people try to get into it is when they try to compare him to MJ. Is Kobe as good as MJ? No. It has nothing to do with rings. If he doesn't win another ring, that isn't what makes him not as good as MJ. It's not because he has 1 less championship. Kobe could win 3 more championships and retire with 8. He's still not as good as MJ. LeBron and Wade could win 8 straight championships. Still, neither one of them are as good as MJ. It's possible LeBron could be in the conversation, but not likely. It's like a 5% chance.

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Lettuce say this Heat team wins 7 rings (just an IF) will most view those rings as legit?

Of corse? What kind of idiot wouldn't? It's a team accomplishment and if they win, that means they have the best team. What's difficult to understand about this?
Is there a single person in the world who thinks the 1980's Lakers 5 championships aren't legit? The Heat have the 2 best players in the league. So what? Big deal. The 1980's Lakers had 2 of the top 5 greatest players of all time. 

The only time people try to bring up these "legitimacy" argument is when they try to discredit another player's legacy because they want to believe that their favorite player is better. The Shaq/Kobe argument is the perfect example. Kobe has 5 rings and absolutely deserves every single one of them. Was Shaq the more valuable for those first 3? Yes. So what? Who cares? You know what makes you great in a TEAM sport? Playing your part. Doing what your team needs to be successful.

The only time people try to get into it is when they try to compare him to MJ. Is Kobe as good as MJ? No. It has nothing to do with rings. If he doesn't win another ring, that isn't what makes him not as good as MJ. It's not because he has 1 less championship. Kobe could win 3 more championships and retire with 8. He's still not as good as MJ. LeBron and Wade could win 8 straight championships. Still, neither one of them are as good as MJ. It's possible LeBron could be in the conversation, but not likely. It's like a 5% chance.

 

[djuzi05]