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Rose doesn't have that "feel" for the game, like a Wall or Rubio.
Rose is basically Wade w/o the defense and post game.
What's with the new era hate on non double digit assist PG's?
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Rose doesn't have that "feel" for the game, like a Wall or Rubio.
Rose is basically Wade w/o the defense and post game.
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It's not a knock on these guys to not label them "true" or "prototypical" point guards. They just make plays in different ways.
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So it isn't his GAME that makes him a combo guard but more so the technical position his coach puts him at? Because his game screams combo guard because he has the size, athleticism, and scoring ability of a mid-sized shooting guard. So unless he actually logs minutes at that position he isn't a combo? Would this be said if Ronnie Brewer got hurt (along with Rip) and he had to play the majority of the season with CJ @ the 1 and him at the 2? Would he be a combo guard then?
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Precisely.
I'm one of those people who criticizes shoot-first PGs. Perhaps it's just being too old-school. It really has nothing to do with assists though -- KB averages 5-6 assists a game and AI had seasons averaging 7-8 assists a game. Neither of them have an ounce of PG in them. Assists are a poor measure to base something like this off of.
It does have to do with the "feel"/ability to see and control the game/tempo. Very few guys have this gene at an elite level (Rondo, Kidd, Nash, Rubio, and Paul) Other guys (Andre Miller, Earl Watson, etc.) have the same (or lesser) ability, but don't have the athletic tools/skills to maximize it. But, simply being 6'4 and under does not make you a PG. Bringing the ball up the court does not make you a PG. Getting double teamed after you dribble for 15 seconds and then passing to the open guy because you're trapped is not being a PG. Let's not kid ourselves -- if Rose/Westbrook were two inches taller, they'd be SGs. Whereas Rubio or someone like Kendall Marshall could be 6'8 and they'd still be PGs (ala Magic).
Functionally, I don't like the idea of teams built around a PG as the primary scorer. You have one player who is responsible for being the primary scorer and facilitator at all times. Unless they can score off the ball (which hardly anyone in the NBA can and/or does), these responsibilities inevitably conflict. It's a delicate balance to maintain, and one function will almost certainly compromised to some degree. It's also terribly easy to plan a defense against a team whose entire offense originates from one person. Lastly, it's just not a natural way to play basketball. Basketball is meant to be played inside out -- the sheer amount of plays/sets you can run, off-ball cuts, making the defense shift, etc. works much easier when the best player starts closer to the basket. The whole point of any offense is to generate high percentage shot attempts -- which, unless they are wide open jumpers, are always close to the basket. Having the smallest player on the court be the guy who runs that offense AND carries the scoring load doesn't seem to be the ideal way to accomplish that, in my opinion.
The problem -- as someone pointed out earlier -- is that the NBA has made the game one-dimensional by instituting no hand-checking on the perimeter, allowing guards to blatantly carry the ball, and calling foul calls on minimal contact. They've created a pick & roll league where any quick PG can get into the lane at will (there's a problem with your league when Tony Parker has the most points in the paint). Actual plays/sets are hardly ever run because you can score just as easily getting the quick PG into space. Hence, the PG becomes, as people are now starting to call it, the "quarterback" and everything originates from him. Even the pass-first PGs today, like Nash or CP3, dominate the ball. So we have a league of PGs who over-dribble. Some do it as a means to facilitate their team's offense, and others use it to get themselves shots. I'm not too fond of either, but I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket.
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Originally Posted by University of Nike
It's funny because it's true.
Rose, along w/ Westbrook and Jennings, are 2 guards who can pass.
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I don't even know what you are saying.
Im my opinion Rose doesn't play like a combo guard. He can score but he also handles the ball and makes plays. He also controls the tempo of the game. I feel like its an insult to a guy that plays the point well to be called a "combo guard".
Rose never plays with CJ Watson or John Lucas III. He hasn't and probably never will play off the ball in his whole career.
Ben Gordon, Randy Foye, Gilbert Arenas...those guys are combo guards because they actually play off the ball and lets face it they don't have great vision or passing skills. Rose can pass as good as or better than anybody not named Nash, CP3, Rondo...nothing wrong with that.
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I don't agree. Scoring doesn't make you a 2 guard. Jennings and Russy I'd agree with. But just because you can be put at the 2 doesn't make you a combo guard imo. Rose is a hell of a lot more efficient as a pg than he would be a 2 despite his scoring. He controls the tempo of the game, and despite him being the primary scorer he is still controlling the flow of that offense. Russy on OKC he's playing his role, and that team is so good that he is more efficient at point, but on another team he's interchangeable between the 1 and 2 and probably preferred at the 2. Jennings well he's just a 2 guard in a points body.
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Exactly. Dudes are acting like those aren't the most elite dudes when it comes to passing in the game. Like PG doesn't have anything to do with being a floor general and its just giving up the rock despite the fact your the best scoring option on your squad.
everysingletime
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Actually, they do pair Rose with CJ Watson and John Lucas at times. But even then, Rose is usually on the ball. That says something.
shatterkneesinc
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blame jordan
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Seen that Coach Nick breakdown 100 times on various blogs now. While he's right, it's also hilarious how casually he glosses over other players's mistakes and not to mention the fact he works with Reggie Jackson, Russell Westbrook's backup's backup (backup at the time the video was made). I could pick one of many better games he has had and do the exact same thing with the opposite conclusion. End of the day, it works for OKC and the personnel we have. He has to score 25. He's not going to be Eric Snow or Brevin Knight ever. Snow by the way was trash anyways, but I'm sure people like him more because since he can't score, he was a "pure" point guard, despite the fact his only real usefulness was dribbling the ball up the court, dribble hand off to significantly more talented backcourt mates (Payton or Iverson or LeBron), then go stand on the weakside and pray nobody passes him the ball when his man inevitably goes and doubles because he can't hit a 15ft'er.
Give me the athletic, high motor point guards who still have the option of being able to get me 20 over those type of guys, of which there are very few remaining now anyways. You take the good with the bad.
Old heads always resistant to any type of change.
Give me the athletic, high motor point guards who still have the option of being able to get me 20 over those type of guys, of which there are very few remaining now anyways. You take the good with the bad.
Old heads always resistant to any type of change.
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Lol "combo guards." So are centers who can pass very well called "combo centers"? Nothing wrong with a point guard scoring 20+ a game. I rather have my point guard have the threat to be able to score. This allows them to attack and open up shooters. Steve Nash can score and pass, he just chooses to pass more because thats his game. The term point guard does not have a definite definition, atleast I don't think it does..but it shouldn't.
The point guard's job is to direct the offense and distribute the ball.. in shorter words, "keep everybody's hands warm"
If you are playing the 1 but running offense for others is your secondary goal to looking for your own shot, it certainly brings into question whether you are performing the duties of a PG. I'm not saying Westbrook isn't a PG, he did average 8apg the last two years.
But THIS year, you could argue that he hasn't really been a PG for the Thunder. He's been in the 1/2 combo guard role and disproportionate number of plays are ran (whether that's Brooks call or Westbrook's) for him to score, vs plays for him to distribute the ball.
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The point guard's job is to direct the offense and distribute the ball.. in shorter words, "keep everybody's hands warm"
If you are playing the 1 but running offense for others is your secondary goal to looking for your own shot, it certainly brings into question whether you are performing the duties of a PG. I'm not saying Westbrook isn't a PG, he did average 8apg the last two years.
But THIS year, you could argue that he hasn't really been a PG for the Thunder. He's been in the 1/2 combo guard role and disproportionate number of plays are ran (whether that's Brooks call or Westbrook's) for him to score, vs plays for him to distribute the ball.
Agree with you on westbrook. I watch a lot of thunder games and he gets very iso happy. He makes great plays and is a huge factor in why they are playing so well. But in a 7 game series, teams will crack down on him. Adding to that they have no post game and if durant and westbrook arent making shots then its all downhill from there.
solarius49
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My question is, why is being a combo guard a bad thing? Russy being a combo guard is what allows his team to start a defensive specialist at SG. Nobody is saying these guys suck, they just have additional skills that break the mold thus making them "combo guards". If you have a forward who brings the ball down the court he is known as a "point forward", same deal here.
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It's not a bad thing, but for those who are not they shouldn't be considered as such. Russy is a combo guard. On a different team he could just as easily be put at the 2, especially if they have a good point. Monta is a combo guard, he can be put at point, but on a team with a good point he's a better suit at the 2. Rose on the other hand is a point guard. Even when paired with the smaller less effective scoring point guards such as cj watson, and jl3 he is still at the point rather than at 2 just worrying about him scoring. There's a reason for that, he sets the tempo, and is the best person on that team when it comes to controlling the flow of the offense. A combo guard imo is someone who is a 2, but can play the one. No legit pg has ever been thought of as a combo guard, so although some combo guards are great to the legit point guard it's kind of a slight. I don't believe it's a addition skill necessarily either, numbers don't tell all. A combo guard has an entirely different game, although numbers might look similar the mentality of a combo guard is different, and when it comes to decision making they aren't up to par with most point guards. Combo guards are usually chuckers, and have a selfish game. Come to think of it not even usually, I can't think of any that aren't.
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dimelo
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Originally Posted by DIOR PAINT
Penny started in the NBA as a 2. After becoming a legit pg, he only became a "combo guard" after injuries when he became a role player due to his size, and simply cause he lost it. Penny in his prime is running point, although he can play the 2 once he fully learned the point position he is CLEARLY better at point. So if you wanna call penny a combo guard, it's only due to size, he is naturally a point guard and if he would've never had the injuries he wouldn't have had to resort to going back to being a off ball player.
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@Truth
What about Rose's makes you say he doesn't PLAY like a COmbo Guard? Since you didn't understand the question let me rephrase it.
You said that Rose isn't a combo guard because he never plays SG. I said do we consider someone a Combo Guard based on
A. Frequency of playing BOTH the PG and SG position (coach decision)
B. Play Style
Hypothetical Machine: Say if somehow Derrick Rose plays with John Stockton. Rose would easily be slid over to the 2. At what point would we consider him a Combo since he would be seeing many of his mins at the 2 spot? So do we never see him at the 2 because he has never really played with someone that is worthy enough of playing the 1 while he is in the game?
That is what I am asking. Is it because of skill or because of circumstance that he isn't a combo guard.
What about Rose's makes you say he doesn't PLAY like a COmbo Guard? Since you didn't understand the question let me rephrase it.
You said that Rose isn't a combo guard because he never plays SG. I said do we consider someone a Combo Guard based on
A. Frequency of playing BOTH the PG and SG position (coach decision)
B. Play Style
Hypothetical Machine: Say if somehow Derrick Rose plays with John Stockton. Rose would easily be slid over to the 2. At what point would we consider him a Combo since he would be seeing many of his mins at the 2 spot? So do we never see him at the 2 because he has never really played with someone that is worthy enough of playing the 1 while he is in the game?
That is what I am asking. Is it because of skill or because of circumstance that he isn't a combo guard.
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You just had to name one of the greatest pg's of all time to put Rose at the 2 spot. Which btw if they some how got paired together there's a extremely high chance one of them is being traded soon. What your saying to place him at the 2 is extreme circumstance, and your going to these extreme circumstance because his skill set at pg is rather high, so that makes him a point. For example someone used Penny for example of a combo that's a true point, if you wanna call penny a combo, it's due to size. Despite his size he played the point better than anything, so for a smaller guard like Rose who has as much talent as he does, if he was a "combo guard" despite his size he would be a 2, especially on a team who has been lacking a 2 since their combo guard left. Combo guards are interchangeable between the 1 and 2, not in extreme circumstances such as being placed with one of the greatest pg's of all time, but in general. The one's who don't play the 2 much, don't play it due to lack of size and strength (B. Jennings) Rose isn't lacking either of those. If he was a combo guard you would've seen him used as such, he is a legit pg. With what your saying their is no difference in a pg who can score, and a combo guard, and this is not true.
|A-Man|
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everysingletime
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Rose is a point guard. Don't think he has played 2 on any level of his career. In the USA Championship, when you had 6 guards vying for the spot, he ended up the starter at the point guard position. He never played any 2 that tournament. Westbrook did (he played the 2 exclusively that tournament). Billups ran a lot of 2. So did Gordon. Curry. Rose was the only one who was on the ball the whole time. On the Bulls - sometimes he'll come off the ball a few possessions ... but he's usually running the offense, even if he's paired with another point guard like Watson or Lucas.
Just because Rose is a dominant scorer at the 1 doesn't make him a combo.
Just because Rose is a dominant scorer at the 1 doesn't make him a combo.
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That's my point. Rose has NEVER seen time at the 2 since the basketball world has been following him since HS. But because he's scores alot of points he isn't considered a "true PG". That's unfair.