Where would John Stockton rank among the greatest point guards ever?

[p0tat0 5alad]

Originally Posted by TheKingOfVa


Malone put up numbers before Stockton was a star.

Yeah, for a whole year. Stockton blew up the year after Malone did

Karl Malone
[table][tr][td]
CAREER SEASON AVERAGES
[/td] [td]

[/td] [/tr][/table][table][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]DEF[/td] [td]RPG[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]SPG[/td] [td]BPG[/td] [td]TO[/td] [td]PF[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1985-86[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]81[/td] [td]76[/td] [td]30.6[/td] [td].496[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].481[/td] [td]2.1[/td] [td]6.7[/td] [td]8.9[/td] [td]2.9[/td] [td]1.3[/td] [td]0.5[/td] [td]3.44[/td] [td]3.60[/td] [td]14.9[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1986-87[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]34.8[/td] [td].512[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].598[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]7.0[/td] [td]10.4[/td] [td]1.9[/td] [td]1.3[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td]2.89[/td] [td]3.90[/td] [td]21.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1987-88[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]39.0[/td] [td].520[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].700[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]8.6[/td] [td]12.0[/td] [td]2.4[/td] [td]1.4[/td] [td]0.6[/td] [td]3.96[/td] [td]3.60[/td] [td]27.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1988-89[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]80[/td] [td]80[/td] [td]39.1[/td] [td].519[/td] [td].313[/td] [td].766[/td] [td]3.2[/td] [td]7.4[/td] [td]10.7[/td] [td]2.7[/td] [td]1.8[/td] [td]0.9[/td] [td]3.56[/td] [td]3.60[/td] [td]29.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1989-90[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]38.1[/td] [td].562[/td] [td].372[/td] [td].762[/td] [td]2.8[/td] [td]8.3[/td] [td]11.1[/td] [td]2.8[/td] [td]1.5[/td] [td]0.6[/td] [td]3.71[/td] [td]3.20[/td] [td]31.0[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]Career[/td] [td] [/td] [td]1476[/td] [td]1471[/td] [td]37.2[/td] [td].516[/td] [td].274[/td] [td].742[/td] [td]2.4[/td] [td]7.7[/td] [td]10.1[/td] [td]3.6[/td] [td]1.4[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td]3.07[/td] [td]3.10[/td] [td]25.0[/td] [/tr][/table]
John Stockton
[table][tr][td]
CAREER SEASON AVERAGES
[/td] [td]

[/td] [/tr][/table][table][tr][td]Year[/td] [td]Team[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]DEF[/td] [td]RPG[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]SPG[/td] [td]BPG[/td] [td]TO[/td] [td]PF[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1984-85[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]18.2[/td] [td].471[/td] [td].182[/td] [td].736[/td] [td]0.3[/td] [td]1.0[/td] [td]1.3[/td] [td]5.1[/td] [td]1.3[/td] [td]0.1[/td] [td]1.83[/td] [td]2.50[/td] [td]5.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1985-86[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]38[/td] [td]23.6[/td] [td].489[/td] [td].133[/td] [td].839[/td] [td]0.4[/td] [td]1.8[/td] [td]2.2[/td] [td]7.4[/td] [td]1.9[/td] [td]0.1[/td] [td]2.05[/td] [td]2.80[/td] [td]7.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1986-87[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]22.7[/td] [td].499[/td] [td].184[/td] [td].782[/td] [td]0.4[/td] [td]1.5[/td] [td]1.8[/td] [td]8.2[/td] [td]2.2[/td] [td]0.2[/td] [td]2.00[/td] [td]2.70[/td] [td]7.9[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1987-88[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]79[/td] [td]34.7[/td] [td].574[/td] [td].358[/td] [td].840[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td]2.2[/td] [td]2.9[/td] [td]13.8[/td] [td]3.0[/td] [td]0.2[/td] [td]3.20[/td] [td]3.00[/td] [td]14.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1988-89[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]82[/td] [td]38.7[/td] [td].538[/td] [td].242[/td] [td].863[/td] [td]1.0[/td] [td]2.0[/td] [td]3.0[/td] [td]13.6[/td] [td]3.2[/td] [td]0.2[/td] [td]3.76[/td] [td]2.90[/td] [td]17.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]1989-90[/td] [td]Utah[/td] [td]78[/td] [td]78[/td] [td]37.4[/td] [td].514[/td] [td].416[/td] [td].819[/td] [td]0.7[/td] [td]1.9[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]14.5[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]0.2[/td] [td]3.49[/td] [td]3.00[/td] [td]17.2[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]Career[/td] [td] [/td] [td]1504[/td] [td]1300[/td] [td]31.8[/td] [td].515[/td] [td].384[/td] [td].826[/td] [td]0.6[/td] [td]2.1[/td] [td]2.7[/td] [td]10.5[/td] [td]2.2[/td] [td]0.2[/td] [td]2.82[/td] [td]2.60[/td] [td]13.1[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

[enlightened thought]

stockton and magic = top 2

 

[barondavis5]

#2

 

[aj23tokb24]

Originally Posted by Paul Is On Tilt

Originally Posted by AJ23ToKB24

John Stockton is definitely in the top 10 greatest point guards ever.

Way to be very vague

. He'd better be in your top 10 point guards ever

. For me, he's number 2 for me behind Magic.

Just stick to your own opinion kid....you don't have to worry about other's opinions.

 

[39478]

Originally Posted by Ghenges

#1 All Time, hands down.


All time leader in assists and all time leader in steals playing in the "Jordan Era" NBA.

Without Stockton, Mailman has 10,000 less career points.

end of thread

 

[ikari xd]

I've never understood how people can consistently point at figures from the past as being "so much better" than those who are currently playing.I'm not a D-Will fan, but I'm almost sure he would body Stockton for 48 minutes if you could put both guys in their prime against each other. Do peoplejust compare what each guy did to their peers as their barometer for how high they would rank all time? I understand why Magic is #1...him in his prime wouldmake fools out of most defenses in this league...but a guy like Stockton? He's one of the smartest and most efficient to ever do it, but I just don'tunderstand how those from the past (barring obvious exceptions like MJ/Hakeem and others) could compete with the talent and athleticism now...other than usingthe bball IQ argument.

 

[RyGuy45]

I've never understood how people can consistently point at figures from the past as being "so much better" than those who are currently playing. I'm not a D-Will fan, but I'm almost sure he would body Stockton for 48 minutes if you could put both guys in their prime against each other. Do people just compare what each guy did to their peers as their barometer for how high they would rank all time? I understand why Magic is #1...him in his prime would make fools out of most defenses in this league...but a guy like Stockton? He's one of the smartest and most efficient to ever do it, but I just don't understand how those from the past (barring obvious exceptions like MJ/Hakeem and others) could compete with the talent and athleticism now...other than using the bball IQ argument.

You just had to see him play. Stockton would be a stud in any generation. He could D, he could shoot, and he had an eye unlike most PGs we've ever seen.And he was tough as nails, borderline cheapshot-like too.

But because he obviously isnt playing now, yes it does help to see how he compared against his peers. You can take stats how they are worth but just going byassists peep this 3-year run Stockton had leading up to the Dream Team summer of '92.

1989-90
14.5 - J Stockton
11.5 - M Johnson
11.4 - K Johnson
10.7 - M Bogues

1990-91
14.2 - J Stockton
12.5 - M. Johnson
10.5 - M Adams
10.1 - K Johnson

1991-92
13.7 - J Stockton
10.7 - K Johnson
10.0 - T Hardaway
9.1 - M Bogues

Oh ya he finished in the top 3 in steals each of those three years too.

 

[fede dpt]

If you say anyone is #2 besides Stockton, you don't know anything about basketball. Stockton could dominate a game without scoring a point and top of it heplayed great defense, think of him as a short white version of Bruce Bowen.

 

[eg23]

I'd say about 2nd or 3rd.....

 

[downtown43]

I've never understood how people can consistently point at figures from the past as being "so much better" than those who are currently playing. I'm not a D-Will fan, but I'm almost sure he would body Stockton for 48 minutes if you could put both guys in their prime against each other. Do people just compare what each guy did to their peers as their barometer for how high they would rank all time? I understand why Magic is #1...him in his prime would make fools out of most defenses in this league...but a guy like Stockton? He's one of the smartest and most efficient to ever do it, but I just don't understand how those from the past (barring obvious exceptions like MJ/Hakeem and others) could compete with the talent and athleticism now...other than using the bball IQ argument.

Stockton is not a "figure from the past" though... he played in the modern era of the league with MJ, Isaiah, Magic, Gary Payton, etc

i understand what you're saying with people bringing up figures from the past like Jerry West and stuff, but Stockton was not that. he retired 5 years ago.no offense, but if you're like 14/15 years old then you might consider him a player from some ancient era. but to most people he really isn't.

it sounds like you just threw that out there that Deron Williams would body Stockton. it doesn't sound like you really know what you're talking aboutor that you ever saw Stockton play. honestly, i feel like you're just saying all that because Stockton is white. last time i checked, Steve Nash is whiteand he's killing in the league right now. and last time i checked, the NBA wasn't devoid of athletes in the 90s either. that "athleticism"argument pretty much holds no weight from the 80s on. this isn't the 50s and 60s we're talking about. so if you really just assume Stocktoncouldn't hold up if he played only 10 years later, you're a fool.

if Stockton held his own against the likes of Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Magic, and Isaiah... i'm pretty sure he would hold is own in today's league

 

[checkoutmygrill]

ive seen magic, stockton, zeke, kidd, payton play and based on that and overall stats, i would have to say that stockton is top 3.

 

[hybridsoldier23]

Originally Posted by Fede DPT

If you say anyone is #2 besides Stockton, you don't know anything about basketball. Stockton could dominate a game without scoring a point and top of it he played great defense, think of him as a short white version of Bruce Bowen.

100% correct

He had the will the lock down other guards seldom seen.. well pretty much ever. Too bad he was 1. loyal to Utah and 2. playing against MJ in his prime. Hecould've, no he should've got a ring. (just not over the bulls

)

 

[dade b0y]

Isiah Thomas was a without a doubt better than Stockton. Without a doubt. With Zeke, not only was he a premiere floor general, but he had the isolation abilityto be able to give you 30 nightly if he really wanted.

Isiah would have won atleast 2 MVP's had he not played in the era that consisted of Magic and Bird in their primes....

 

[joegolfdad]

Stockton is my favorite player from the 90's other than Jordan. I really respect the way he played, so scrappy and tough. A lot of people aren'twilling to play that way at all levels, so I really respect that. Plus, he went about his business without any fanfare or drawing attention to himself. He wasall about the team, which is really special.

 

[fede dpt]

Originally Posted by Dade B0Y

Isiah Thomas was a without a doubt better than Stockton. Without a doubt. With Zeke, not only was he a premiere floor general, but he had the isolation ability to be able to give you 30 nightly if he really wanted.

Isiah would have won atleast 2 MVP's had he not played in the era that consisted of Magic and Bird in their primes....

Malone owes his MVP to Stockton....

 

[mo matik]

He's one of the smartest and most efficient to ever do it, but I just don't understand how those from the past (barring obvious exceptions like MJ/Hakeem and others) could compete with the talent and athleticism now...other than using the bball IQ argument.

Yeah players today are much stronger, but, especially at the point guard position, you don't have to be extremely athletic.

Steve Nash is the perfect example. Besides being in shape, the guy is not a hell of an athlete. He can shoot the rock, and he can pass. And he wins MVPs.

Jose Calderon, a guy who doesn't get nearly enough credit, is averaging 12 and 9 shooting 53% in his second season. He's another example.

I understand your argument though and it applies, just not at the PG position.

 

[steve steve nash]

I think that some people look at how you define a player as great is different depending on how you look at it. some people look at how good a person was bythere stats and how good somebodys career was while others look at how good somebody was in their prime. I think how good a player is should be how good theywere at there best. Stats honestly mean little when looking at how good someone was. It is more about the impact that they have on the game. Saying this, iwill say that magic, zeke, kidd, were better players than stockton. I think stockton had the best career out of them but they were all better players than hewas in their prime.

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by ikari XD

I've never understood how people can consistently point at figures from the past as being "so much better" than those who are currently playing. I'm not a D-Will fan, but I'm almost sure he would body Stockton for 48 minutes if you could put both guys in their prime against each other. Do people just compare what each guy did to their peers as their barometer for how high they would rank all time? I understand why Magic is #1...him in his prime would make fools out of most defenses in this league...but a guy like Stockton? He's one of the smartest and most efficient to ever do it, but I just don't understand how those from the past (barring obvious exceptions like MJ/Hakeem and others) could compete with the talent and athleticism now...other than using the bball IQ argument.

The point guards who played in Stockton's era are definitely better than the players in this era. Not to mention Stockton had to play with guyshandchecking him all over the place. You're trying to argue that guys like Deron are better than guys like Isiah, GP and a young JKidd? That'sridiculous. Even if today's players are more athletic than Stockton's peers, it really doesn't matter. Stock was always athletically inferior tohis peers and still managed to make them look foolish.

 

[i3]

Behind Rafer Alston of course.

Top 3.

 

[ikari xd]

o offense, but if you're like 14/15 years old then you might consider him a player from some ancient era. but to most people he really isn't.
None taken, I understand why someone would think that of me, and really it might be applicable (I'm 20 btw). When I started watchingbasketball, I didn't understand as much as I do now obviously (like why P/R worked so well). What I did know, is I enjoyed how people played and thoughtpeople were good based on how they dominated the guy on the other side of the ball. I just think he was set up to succeed in a system where (from what Iremember) he could either get the ball into Malone or out to the open man. And yes, this may seem like I'm over-simplifying the system, but by the sametoken, someone like Kidd/Nash (whom I will get to later) would probably just as successful (except for Nash on the defensive end).

honestly, i feel like you're just saying all that because Stockton is white. last time i checked, Steve Nash is white and he's killing in the league right now. and last time i checked, the NBA wasn't devoid of athletes in the 90s either
And to continue what I said earlier, Nash would have done just as well in that system and in that time period on the offensive end, whichnullifies that assumption. And I understand that Stockton's prowess on the defensive end is what would put him over Nash. But what about Payton? In hisprime, Payton was ridiculously great on both sides of the ball. He was obviously a different type of pg than Stockton, but you can't deny he led his squad(which arguably had about the same level of talent as Stockton's with Schrempf and Kemp) to success just the same. Though he didn't have anywhere nearas many productive years, in his prime, how is he not at least on par with Stockton? I feel like his skill level isn't much removed from that of his higherlevel contemporaries like Isaiah and Payton, and even those in his generation arguably a tier lower like Hardaway and KJ.

I understand your argument though and it applies, just not at the PG position.
Point taken, and I'll get to that later, but I believe that argument began changing with Magic's style of pg work (and later Payton). Aspg's get stronger/quicker/generally more athletic, it changes what a defense can do about that pg. Now you have to worry about putting a strong yet fastbody on the pg (like what the Bulls did against Magic in having Pip guard him..though that didn't work out too well for the Lakers). But because ofsituations like this, a pg can impose his will on a game and the pg on the other side of the ball by outmuscling/outmaneuvering the other guy (see: Baron vsNash/Barbosa)

I also forgot to mention a couple of things in my original post. Yes, I do believe Stockton is about top5 as of right now, though I'm not willing toconcede that he is, without a doubt, #2 behind Magic. Also, the whole "overrating figures of the past" thing stems from debates I've seen wherepeople will say someone is the best in the history of whatever sport, yet would obviously not be able to put close to those numbers/dominating performancesagainst competition ahead of them (Wilt vs any top center in the 90s up to Shaq). It just seemed to slightly fit in this case because I believe there are manyplayers that have played or currently play that could fill Stockton's void with at least close to the same success.

I think stockton had the best career out of them but they were all better players than he was in their prime.
Thats really what it comes down to. Those assist records are absurd. I think its Mark Jackson as the next closest guy? But if we're measuringa player's overall ability, I don't think the person with the best career automatically takes the argument.

 

[ikari xd]

You're trying to argue that guys like Deron are better than guys like Isiah, GP and a young JKidd?
Of course not, what I'm saying is that I don't believe Stockton would be considered as great of a defender if he had to consistently go upagainst guys bigger/stronger/faster than him. Deron just barely makes the top5 NOW, he just seemed like a good example for the point that I was trying to make.What I do believe, however, is that Stockton wasn't much, if at all, more skilled than guys like Isiah, GP, and a young JKidd.