Would you eat this?**Calling all Vegans**

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THAT LOOKS DOPE.
 
I wanted to be a vegetarian but I really thought about it. Humans are killing machines. It is on auto-pilot. Our bodies kill anything that are foreign . I eat beef, chicken, fish & pork but I don't kill an animal (bugs & insects) unless it is in my house.
Simply because we have immune systems doesn't necessarily make us "killing machines." Herbivores possess active immune systems; Idon't think many people would consider sheep, for example, to be "killing machines."

Humans are actually pretty poorly adapted when it comes to eating meat. Our digestive systems fall far closer to the herbivorous end of the spectrum than thecarnivorous. Most people can't even keep down raw meat and, certainly, our jaws and teeth don't allow us to tear of large chunks of flesh and swallowthem whole the way carnivores can. We have long digestive tracts suitable for breaking down cellulose in plant matter. We need fiber; carnivores don't. Carnivores can eat meat based diets without any ill effects from cholesterol - obviously that's not the case for humans. Carnivores have acidic saliva,human saliva is alkaline - like that of herbivores.

At best, and I use "best" in reference to the argument that humans ought to eat meat, humans are adapted for scavenging and capturing small prey. You can't really envision a human being chasing down a gazelle and beating it to death. Even then, without developing tools what would they do - tear intoit with their nails? Certainly, it's difficult to envision humans "in the wild" suckling cows. So, this image of humans as "killingmachines" seems a bit incongruous with the actual human organism. Our bodies make much better foraging machines than killing machines. A human being canbe perfectly healthy eating a vegetarian diet. We can't really say the same for a human being who chooses to eat a diet in which meat is eatenexclusively. You'd suffer congestive heart failure before you could even rent a car.

Now, all that said, simply because we're capable of doing something doesn't mean we should. You'recapable of beating small children unconscious and stealing their lunch money as a means of survival. Should you? Is there a better way than to prey on thoseweaker than you?

If you choose to eat meat that's obviously your decision, but the argument that human beings are inherently killing machines strikes me as a flawedjustification for doing so.
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Edit: I'd like to have a "Mature NTers only"(impossible) discussion in a password protected room on AIM one day. I would really like to seewhat kind of discussions would come out of it. My dad was 100% vegan. He only ate raw/live vegitables and the fact that he did that makes me feel likethere's nothing I cant do. Starts with dicipline.

That mess looks like some disgusting mess Paula Dean would cook...
 
Originally Posted by solesavage

To be honest i'd try it and I am a healthy individual. I dont know what it is, but I love bacon.
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I would probably add an extra step and add some eggs into the mix.
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Here is the link:

http://foodproof.com/photos/full/bacon-cheese-roll-1290http://foodproof.com/photos/full/bacon-cheese-roll-1290http://foodproof.com/phot...ll/bacon-cheese-roll-1290
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yea, that looks like it would be too salty. definitely would need to add some eggs to dilute the salt.
 
Originally Posted by Tupac Jordan

I wanted to be a vegetarian but I really thought about it. Humans are killing machines. It is on auto-pilot. Our bodies kill anything that are foreign . I eat beef, chicken, fish & pork but I don't kill an animal (bugs & insects) unless it is in my house.
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Try being a vegetarian for a month .
 
Method Man,

How do you deal with soy? I was a vegetarian for 6 years but the last 2 months I stopped eating soy due to estrogen in it. That was the toughest 2 months of mylife. I've ate meat for almost 8 months ago and I hate it. What is your alternative to meat that doesnt increase my estrogen?
 
Originally Posted by Method Man

I wanted to be a vegetarian but I really thought about it. Humans are killing machines. It is on auto-pilot. Our bodies kill anything that are foreign . I eat beef, chicken, fish & pork but I don't kill an animal (bugs & insects) unless it is in my house.
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Simply because we have immune systems doesn't necessarily make us "killing machines." Herbivores possess active immune systems; I don't think many people would consider sheep, for example, to be "killing machines."

Humans are actually pretty poorly adapted when it comes to eating meat. Our digestive systems fall far closer to the herbivorous end of the spectrum than the carnivorous. Most people can't even keep down raw meat and, certainly, our jaws and teeth don't allow us to tear of large chunks of flesh and swallow them whole the way carnivores can. We have long digestive tracts suitable for breaking down cellulose in plant matter. We need fiber; carnivores don't. Carnivores can eat meat based diets without any ill effects from cholesterol - obviously that's not the case for humans. Carnivores have acidic saliva, human saliva is alkaline - like that of herbivores.

At best, and I use "best" in reference to the argument that humans ought to eat meat, humans are adapted for scavenging and capturing small prey. You can't really envision a human being chasing down a gazelle and beating it to death. Even then, without developing tools what would they do - tear into it with their nails? Certainly, it's difficult to envision humans "in the wild" suckling cows. So, this image of humans as "killing machines" seems a bit incongruous with the actual human organism. Our bodies make much better foraging machines than killing machines. A human being can be perfectly healthy eating a vegetarian diet. We can't really say the same for a human being who chooses to eat a diet in which meat is eaten exclusively. You'd suffer congestive heart failure before you could even rent a car.

Now, all that said, simply because we're capable of doing something doesn't mean we should. You're capable of beating small children unconscious and stealing their lunch money as a means of survival. Should you? Is there a better way than to prey on those weaker than you?

If you choose to eat meat that's obviously your decision, but the argument that human beings are inherently killing machines strikes me as a flawed justification for doing so.

Couple of thoughts:

1) Cellulose is indigestible by humans.
2) Believe it or not, studies have shown that people changing their "normal diets" to a diet of just strictly meats and fats (ketogenic diet) havelots of health benefits (ie. weightloss, lower LDL levels, etc.) with no known ill-effects aside from the first few weeks of weakness dueto the lack of carbs; endurance is regained after a period of time.
3) that bacon x cheese roll looks good with eggs + hash browns
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Edit: I'd like to have a "Mature NTers only"(impossible) discussion in a password protected room on AIM one day. I would really like to see what kind of discussions would come out of it. My dad was 100% vegan. He only ate raw/live vegitables and the fact that he did that makes me feel like there's nothing I cant do. Starts with dicipline.
Wow, raw vegetables only - now that's dedication. I wish I had the time and access to the quality of ingredients necessary to make that work,but one step at a time.

You know, people have tossed around the idea of a reserved forum for the "grown" NTers for awhile now, but we've managed to have a lot of reallyinteresting discussions in these forums over the years on subjects that you'd assume incompatible with our user base. Yes, you'll get immaturecomments here and there and you'll need to tune it out in much the same way that an NBA player tunes out crowd noise, but I'd rather have those typesof discussions here so everyone can benefit from them and contribute to them. Young people have a lot to say about these issues, too, and engaging in thesediscussions with them can be a learning experience for all involved.

I know I've learned a lot from interacting with our members over the years, even if it's simply a matter of learning how to communicate with anaudience that, in some cases, isn't receptive to your message. Anyone can knock down a shot in an open gym. The true measure of skill is how you'reable to perform when subjected to adversity.

There's really no substitute for finding that, by putting yourself out there and having this sort of discussion in a widely viewed forum like this,you've succeeded in raising someone's awareness level or inspiring them to take action. I really get no greater pleasure from operating this site thanwhen someone will come up to me via a private message and say that they've really learned something and they've made a positive change in their livesas a result. I'd never want to deny that possibility by more or less preaching to the choir in a closed setting. You can have a great discussion runningparallel to some of the more superficial chatter that occurs within a thread - and readers can pick and choose which discussions within a given threadthey'd prefer to follow. Just like some people ignore every post I submit, many of us would prefer to gloss over a lot of the pointless hostility andpleas for attention that pervade most forums.

Method Man,

How do you deal with soy? I was a vegetarian for 6 years but the last 2 months I stopped eating soy due to estrogen in it. That was the toughest 2 months of my life. I've ate meat for almost 8 months ago and I hate it. What is your alternative to meat that doesnt increase my estrogen?
There's a lot of misinformation and scare articles out there, yet if you actually look at the research it doesn't seem justified. I've mainly seen this argument come up on bodybuilding sites, and I think some men are just scared by the word "estrogen" and worry thatthey'll become impotent or grow breasts. (Though steroids are a much better way to acquire breasts - just ask Mark McGwire, who practically lactated aftereach home run swing.)

Phytoestrogens occur naturally in many foods, mainly vegetables, fruits, and nuts. Among the highest concentrations may be found in soy and flax seeds (thoughnot flax seed oil), but they're also highly present in garlic, black beans, pistachios, coffee beans, and hops. Yet, for whatever reason, there isn'ta lot out there urging people to abandon coffee and beer.

The research is a mixed bag. Some studies highlight the antioxidant effects of phytoestrogens, others attempt to downplay it. Some have found thatphytoestrogens reduced the risk of lung and prostate cancers, others indicated a potential breast cancer risk for women. Certain phytoestrogens, like flaxseeds, can actually serve as estrogen blockers since they're able to bind to estrogen receptors without stimulating them. So, you can't lump allphytoestrogens into the same category.

There is some cause for concern related to soy, but at this point it doesn't seem conclusive. Some of the claims are just so speciously supported that youreally have to question the researcher's competence. The implication, for example, that simply because soy was introduced to the west roughly 50 years agoand sperm counts have decreased over the same period is akin to the textbook example of reasoning that ice cream sales are positively correlated with homicideand, thus, eliminating ice cream will reduce the murder rate. Exposure to pesticides, for example, could certainly serve as an intervening factor in thatrelationship - as could exposure to electromagnetic radiation for all we know.

A valid concern, though, is that many vegetarian products, like soy protein isolate, involve unnatural concentrations. I avoid soy protein isolate anyway,since they're often processed with hexane, and prefer hempseed protein as a supplement. There are a number of good hempseed powders out there that are THCfree and non-GMO.

As for replacing soy as a meat substitute - use seitan. Seitan is wheat gluten, which is a very low sodium and low fat protein source. Seitan is actually areally convincing meat substitute, too, in that unlike the spongy texture of tofu seitan's texture closely approximates that of beef or chicken. In termsof healthy, high protein foods, it's a great choice.

Lentils, too, are a very good source of protein. In fact, declining lentil production is actually one of the primary drivers of malnutrition in India.

The point you raise is a valid and important one in that, like the meat and dairy industries, the soy industry has exerted an enormous influence and has takenon an unhealthy centrality within many diets. It's been sold as as a perfect food - and in truth NO food is perfect. We all need to eat a varied dietand, unfortunately, it's been the case that soy has been positioned as one of the only accessible sources of convenient, high protein foods for vegetariansin the US. There's soy milk, tofu, tempeh, soy protein isolate, textured vegetable protein, and that's essentially served as a replacement for meatand dairy products for many vegetarians. I would agree that living on soy alone is far from ideal.

Rather than going back to meat, though, I'd suggest at least trying alternatives like seitan and lentils. If you haven't eaten it yet, trust me,you'll enjoy seitan far more than meat. Some long-time vegetarians, from what I've read, actually can't tolerate seitan because the texture is toosimilar to that of meat. Personally, since I grew up on chicken, I think it's great. You get a cleaner source of protein, less fat, no cholesterol,highly concentrated, and yet you don't even have to worry about biting into any fat, gristle, or tendons as you do with meat. Keep your diet varied andyou can reduce or even eliminate your soy intake, if that makes you feel more comfortable, without sacrificing the ideals or health concerns that led you tovegetarianism to begin with - just my two cents on the issue.
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i would eat it, but i would eat it in such small bits it'd take me a year to finish that roll
 
1) Cellulose is indigestible by humans.
Right, and it's because we lack the enzymes to do so. I didn't say we could eat hay, only that our digestive tracts more closely resemblethose of herbivores and we, unlike carnivores, NEED fiber in our diets for digestive efficiency.
2) Believe it or not, studies have shown that people changing their "normal diets" to a diet of just strictly meats and fats (ketogenic diet) have lots of health benefits (ie. weightloss, lower LDL levels, etc.) with no known ill-effects aside from the first few weeks of weakness due to the lack of carbs; endurance is regained after a period of time.
Sounds like you're referring to the Atkins diet or so-called "caveman" diet. You can find far more studies warning that a diet ofthat nature can lead to all sorts of health problems, not the least of which include increased risk of colon cancer, heart disease, and renal issues.

It's no surprise that Robert Atkins suffered a heart attack, hypertension, and congestive heart failure.


Again, the point isn't that meat is toxic, obviously people can enjoy a healthy lifestyle while eating meat if they so choose, but the health risksassociated with diets that are high in meat and dairy products have been well documented.
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