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he's in nobody's conversation for top 3 players in the league but you 2
Oh and Robert horry has 7 chips in case anyone's forgetting. If we're bringing up team accomplishments when individuals are being discussed
IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by goldenchild9,
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Oh and Robert horry has 7 chips in case anyone's forgetting. If we're bringing up team accomplishments when individuals are being discussed
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he's in nobody's conversation for top 3 players in the league but you 2
Oh and Robert horry has 7 chips in case anyone's forgetting. If we're bringing up team accomplishments when individuals are being discussed
team accomplishments come up when discussing leaders of the team or great players. its ridiculous when someone jumps into the argument when comparing two great players like a michael jordan and magic johnson who are just 1 championship apart, clearly the leaders of their teams during those eras, and then says 'well even (insert random role player here) has rings!!!" when it has nothing to do with it. peyton manning and tom brady get compared all the time, and championships come up. no one comes in out of nowhere and talks about adam vinatieri for no damn reason, hes not in the conversation.
its a team sport, of course team accomplishments will come into play when individuals are being discussed. magic cant get assists without teammates. jordan didn't play one on one. but the parameters, which are pretty obvious to anyone who isn't reaching, are pretty clear. don't bring in players or situations that aren't even in the conversation.
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hard to be me first as a center g.
And as far me first players in the Kobe/Shaq era the Lakers were a winning team when Shaq played without Kobe. And a losing team when Kobe played without Shaq.
http://www.82games.com/kobeshaq.htm
Why? Because the team got more shots. If Kobe would simply be more of a team player and then get his Kobe on in key situations he would be so much more of a great ball player instead of just a scorer teams don't mind letting score all game.
And we all remember that run the Lakers had last season without Kobe. Bottom line Kobe is a great shooter who benefitted by playing with a great coach and different sets of great teams who careerly do really well without him.
And yes MJ was a me first type of player in his early years. But unlike Kobe he later matured and learned to trust his teammates. He even had a teammate who is synonymous with being his sidekick. Kobe never had that.
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What does Shaq being or not being a Me first player have to do with Kobe being a me first player?
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hard to be me first as a center g.
And as far me first players in the Kobe/Shaq era the Lakers were a winning team when Shaq played without Kobe. And a losing team when Kobe played without Shaq.
http://www.82games.com/kobeshaq.htm
Why? Because the team got more shots. If Kobe would simply be more of a team player and then get his Kobe on in key situations he would be so much more of a great ball player instead of just a scorer teams don't mind letting score all game.
And we all remember that run the Lakers had last season without Kobe. Bottom line Kobe is a great shooter who benefitted by playing with a great coach and different sets of great teams who careerly do really well without him.
And yes MJ was a me first type of player in his early years. But unlike Kobe he later matured and learned to trust his teammates. He even had a teammate who is synonymous with being his sidekick. Kobe never had that.
Being me first has NOTHING to do with your position. That's 100% how you play. Then, you used a single season not their whole tenure -_- stop it. The Lakers were plenty effective without shaq and just Kobe. Quick tell me how many games they lost when shaq went down for 15 games and Kobe scored 35+ each game? Don't worry I'll wait. And Jordan had just as many shots later in his career as the beginning. In fact he took more but rewrite history if you'd like. Doesn't change what ACTUALLY happened
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What does Shaq being or not being a Me first player have to do with Kobe being a me first player?
You cited Kobe "running shaq out of town", which is not true, as a reason for Kobe being me first. Completely glossing over the fact that shaqs me first attitude is what caused the problem and eventually ran himself out of town.
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How bout we use the threepeat seasons then.
No Shaq - 12-11 (.521)
No Kobe - 25-7 (.7
Lakers Record - 181-65 (.735)
Lakers had a better winning percentage when Kobe wasnt playing
Oh yeah, Lakers winning percentage is also higher when Kobe Doesnt play and Gasol plays than when Gasol doesnt play and Kobe plays.
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it's not fair to discredit all kobe's accomplishments just cause his team (including him) is playing awful this season. it's like saying jordan isnt the goat, because he played for the wizards.. funny how people always say kobe is this and kobe is that.. and when it comes to jordan, nothing applies. no one can ever discredit his accomplishments cause he's jordan...
just how you say it is always on kobe's teammates, yet when he wins it is also always cause of his teammates. .kobe won only cause of shaq.. kobe only won cause of bynum and pau...
saying pau was dominant, yeah he was.. but we both know that without kobe none of the lakers 5 championships would have been possible.. yes, especially the ones with shaq... at that time it was shaq #1A option on offense, kobe 1B.. if you recall watching the san antonio series where kobe avg. 30 in away games and less in home games, and shaq was avg. 30 in home games and less in away games.
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hard to be me first as a center g.
And as far me first players in the Kobe/Shaq era the Lakers were a winning team when Shaq played without Kobe. And a losing team when Kobe played without Shaq.
http://www.82games.com/kobeshaq.htm
Why? Because the team got more shots. If Kobe would simply be more of a team player and then get his Kobe on in key situations he would be so much more of a great ball player instead of just a scorer teams don't mind letting score all game.
And we all remember that run the Lakers had last season without Kobe. Bottom line Kobe is a great shooter who benefitted by playing with a great coach and different sets of great teams who careerly do really well without him.
And yes MJ was a me first type of player in his early years. But unlike Kobe he later matured and learned to trust his teammates. He even had a teammate who is synonymous with being his sidekick. Kobe never had that.
How were the lakers winning with shaq and without kobe? got any proof? if im not mistaken, titles were won when both players played.. not one or the other.. it's funny how people discredit his accomplishments and say that he could easily be interchanged with other stars, iverson, tmac, lebron.. yet tmac and iverson are out of the league, and lebron is not coming into his own.. but shies away from big moments, unlike kobe and jordan
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you kobe stans discrediting pau and bynum though....
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I agree, its ridiculous to discredit all his accomplishments based on just one season. But its also ridiculous to compare Kobes situation this season to Mike's on the Wizards.
And based off everything in this thread and the Lakers thread, Its NEVER Kobe's fault when his team is struggling. All I've heard this season is
Howard had back surgery
Gasol is injured
Nash in injured
Our bench Sucks
D' Antoni system doesnt fit
And my personal favorite...
Mike Brown Is 100% to Blame
Never is Kobe jacking up 30+ shots a night or playing off his man and not helping on D a factor in the Lakers struggle. The 5 rings were solely because of Kobe but the struggles are solely on the rest of the team.
And based off everything in this thread and the Lakers thread, Its NEVER Kobe's fault when his team is struggling. All I've heard this season is
Howard had back surgery
Gasol is injured
Nash in injured
Our bench Sucks
D' Antoni system doesnt fit
And my personal favorite...
Mike Brown Is 100% to Blame
Never is Kobe jacking up 30+ shots a night or playing off his man and not helping on D a factor in the Lakers struggle. The 5 rings were solely because of Kobe but the struggles are solely on the rest of the team.
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How bout we use the threepeat seasons then.
No Shaq - 12-11 (.521)
No Kobe - 25-7 (.7
Lakers Record - 181-65 (.735)
Lakers had a better winning percentage when Kobe wasnt playing
Oh yeah, Lakers winning percentage is also higher when Kobe Doesnt play and Gasol plays than when Gasol doesnt play and Kobe plays.
And you pulled this stat from where?
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I gave you proof b: lol
Iverson did more with less career wise. Tmac we know he fell short of his potential probably due to his work ethic. And well Lebron took a team with less talent than the '04 Lakers to a title with the guy Lakers had to fire this season. And then won one with a second year coach.
Nobodys discrediting Kobes 5 chips. But people like to act like its the medias fault he only one won MVP his whole career. People like to act like he didnt play with an mvp for more than half of his title runs. And how he has missed the playoffs twice now without a certain person at the head coaching position. And yes MJ never won without Phil but could he? We'll never know but we know Kobe struggles. I would think a great player would make the playoffs at least no matter who is the coach.
Lets just add some perspective here. Remove the myth and look at the data. Kobe is overrated if top 5 all time is where you think he belongs.
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iverson did more? that is why he has more titles, more points, more accomplishments and more all star appearances than kobe.. right...
yeah lebron went to the finals, with a sucky team.. and?? being 2nd doesnt count.. you say he won with a second year coach? and an all star in his prime in wade and bosh..
whether a player is great or not.. it doesnt all depend on him.. it is not an individual sport.. team sport.. like jordan made the playoffs every year of his career... besides you also know that no matter what coach he had, jordan always got to tell the coach what he wanted and they had to do it or they were fired..
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what exactly do you consider an accomplisment then? AI has more scoring titles. The same amount of MVPs. Only 3 less all star appearances.(him being out of the the league 3 years might have something to do with this tho)
I guess I brought up the fact lebron came in 2nd with a sucky team to contrast that Kobe will probably come in 20th with 3 all stars.
Also you say Lebron won a chip but he won with 2 all stars ok youre right he also manage to win his 3rd MVP that year and still won finals mvp with that "loaded" team.
But Kobe, see thats another thing because he played with one all star in his prime and manage to not win one mvp or finals mvp.
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all star appearances should never be used in any argument for any nba player. all star selection is based on popularity and not on merit.
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Look it up for yourself. Stats dont lie.
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Again I ask...you pulled this stat from where? Because those numbers don't add up....unless there's something I'm missing. So I'll wait.
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^ Its really that hard for you to comprehend huh?
Games that Kobe Missed and Shaq played:
16 games in 99-00 Record: 13-3
14 games in 00-01 Record: 11-3
2 games in 02-03 Record: 2-0
0-1 in games both Shaq and Kobe missed.
In games that Shaq missed but Kobe played, the team was 13-12.
Take a minute to comprehend that, then let me know how you'll spin that into Kobes favor.
Games that Kobe Missed and Shaq played:
16 games in 99-00 Record: 13-3
14 games in 00-01 Record: 11-3
2 games in 02-03 Record: 2-0
0-1 in games both Shaq and Kobe missed.
In games that Shaq missed but Kobe played, the team was 13-12.
Take a minute to comprehend that, then let me know how you'll spin that into Kobes favor.
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He is relativley overrated by many because they only compared him to Jordan when there are like at least 3 greater player from his team. He has well surpassed Iverson. Kobe is a top 25 player but he is not a top 10 all time player.
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And those records matter because?? Without kobe shaq wouldve never won the any title except for the one in miami.. so you can go on and on about how the lakers won more with shaq in the line up and kobe not playing than vice versa.. it doesnt mean a thing.. but keep in mind that kobe easnt the only one to play with a good post up player. Everywhere shaq went he had a great guard. Penny, kobe, wade, nash, bron (forward) and rondo..
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I doubt that I think the 2001 squad would have done just as well with Eddie Jones who they only traded to so the could start Kobe. Shaq didn't have a great guard in Cleveland.
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he's in nobody's conversation for top 3 players in the league but you 2
Whos ahead of him?
Lebron for sure. Durant maybe...the only other guy in the conversation is Chris Paul.
If you say anybody else youre just a hater
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^ I never said those teams wouldve won those ships without Kobe. But history proves, Kobes teammates play better without him. As recent as the past few seasons. Last season, Lakers went 5-2 without him playing and Gasol + Bynum playing. Bynum and Gasol played like all 1st teamers. Ball movement is crisp, everyone is gettin involved. Yall can look at the record of when Gasol's out and Kobe plays compared to Kobe out and Gasol plays since the trade. It favors Gasol heavily too.
Have yall Ever seen a "Top 10" superstars team play better without them record wise? MJ? Magic? Bird? Duncan? Russell? Wilt? Hakeem? Shaq? Lebron? KD? Stockton? Kidd? Paul? Dirk? I can keep naming but the answer is No.
Have yall Ever seen a "Top 10" superstars team play better without them record wise? MJ? Magic? Bird? Duncan? Russell? Wilt? Hakeem? Shaq? Lebron? KD? Stockton? Kidd? Paul? Dirk? I can keep naming but the answer is No.
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First the record was 12-11 now its 13-12. And you're asking me how hard is it to comprehend..when the question I asked you was WHERE DID YOU PULL THIS STAT FROM? Which you have yet to answer and the numbers still don't add up.
