PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE - ISRAELI-TERRORISM AWARENESS THREAD

[flyeed]

 

You need to stop downplaying what's going on with a militaristic inhumane outlook.

It's an awareness thread on people getting slaughtered in an illegal and unnecessary "war" that isn't really a war and is one side randomly going on an offensive to kill and displace people from their homes.

Maybe a human rights awareness thread isn't the place for someone who has no respect or regard for it. It's 2014, the world is a more liberal thinking place and people don't accept death of innocents and have the right to defend their cause and lives.

I understand your approach, but if this was a massacre then is your frustration based on the idea that no one is coming in to save the victims?

So if you say the Israelis are wrong, then what do you expect the Palastenians to do? Move? Or are you saying the Isaraelis should welcome them in open arms and reconcile?

One of my main issues with this whole thing is to know that in this day and age, with the right strategy you can basically buy a genocide/ethnic cleaning/displacement of an entire group of people, and have it deemed morally just and ok. Around the world, deplorable things happen, but they get recognized for what they are. This is really the one instance where the victim is deemed the aggressor, and the one doing the brutal killing is getting a pass because they have the funds and strategy to deceive people.

I don't expect people to go in and save the day, and I don't expect any significant change to be made for a very long time, if it ever does happen. But what should happen is economic sanctions, not support, and international recognition of their wrongdoing to pressure Israel to stop. 

I'm not seeing how you get from me saying Israelis are wrong so either Palestinians should move, or Israelis should welcome them with open arms. People in Gaza can't even move anyways so it wouldn't be an option to consider since they're blockaded in. 

And I said just before that what Israel should do is not welcome then with open arms, but lift their blockade, stop expanding illegal settlements and destroying Palestinian homes, and accept a peace treaty like the Palestinians have been wanting. Unfortunately their goal is to eradicate the Palestinian state, hence the thread title.

 

[Based Jesus]

 

 

 

 

 
Can we seriously stop with the rockets thing? It's been discussed a million times already.

If they want rockets to stop, accept a peace treaty. Stop building illegal settlements, end the blockade, stop harassing Palestinian civilians. Stop blowing up civilians.

@useref15
  this did not start because of rocket fire. stop trying to mislead people into thinking this is Israel being defensive.

The EU is a western political organization. You blatantly ignore neutral parties that condemn Israel. Human Rights Watch, a completely unbiased source completely exposed Israel and their whole human shield garbage.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians

Or they could clear out the entire Gaza strip which we see happening.
There is no sound strategy to firing these rockets.
They have nowhere near enough military power to coerce Israel into doing anything.
Even if I was palestinian there is no way I could back Hamas in this.
They're doing far more harm than they are help.
And what is it with you and this "completely unbiased" saying of yours?
Everyone is biased. There is no such thing as being completely unbiased.
Some of us are just better at hiding it than others.

I don't support Hamas. Read the post I just made. Also sharing facts, having an openness to both sides of the story, and having no reason to have an agenda = unbiased. What would people like Noam Chomsky, Jon Stewart, Human Rights Watch, Holocaust survivors, Orthodox Jews who protest Israel, etc. have to gain by being biased against Israel? That's not bias, these are just people that view the facts for what they are and formulate an opinion based on it.

I never said you supported Hamas. I said I don't understand how anyone could.
And the funny thing about bias is that you don't need to have anything to gain from it in order to have it.
Bias isn't logical. Our personal experiences will always influence how we view things.
Just look at how you keep posting quotes from "unbiased sources" that coincidentally support your personal stance on this matter.
Men lie, women lie, numbers are misinterpreted. It's easy to get people to believe what you want them to.
If I'm right Hamas is doing it right now at the cost of thousands. But I'm biased so if I were you I wouldn't take my words at face value.

Stewart briefly explains in his question to Hillary Clinton why he sees the reason someone would support them.

I think it's safe to say that sources like Chomsky, Stewart, Holocaust survivors, and Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's policies wouldn't be biased against the Jewish state. If anything they'd be biased in favor of it, unless you're implying they have some sort of self-hate complex or just want attention.

I can, with enough certainty, call certain things and people unbiased sources.

You're having trouble understanding the difference between bias and people with an open mind forming an opinion based on facts and then taking a stance in one way. There's a difference.

I have a relatively open mind. Here's my stance. Israel should never have been formed the way it was.

That land shouldn't have been taken and given to them without consulting those who were already there.

But they're there now and barring WW3 going nowhere anytime soon.

The blockade of Gaza is terrible yet understandable. Palestine and Israel hate each other, both the people and the governments.

They would gladly wipe each other off the map if they could do it without repercussions. Israel doesn't want weapons getting in that could help Palestine do so.

They don't want anything getting in or out that could help Palestine do so. The ability to trade with other nations and build up their economy could easily do that.

A strong Palestine is their worst nightmare. But they have the power to prevent this and so in order to uphold their national security have been preventing it.

Palestine would've done the same. But at least Palestine existed. True they're living in abject poverty, but at least they were still there and alive.

Where there's life, there's hope.

Now Hamas has gone on an offensive giving Israel a "legitimate" reason to go into the strip and further their goal to rid themselves of the "Palestine problem" forever.

However if Hamas stopped tomorrow Israel would be forced to as well. There is already an outrage over them using "inappropriate" amounts of force to deal with Hamas.

There's no way they could keep going if Hamas laid down their arms. Yet Hamas keeps fighting while their countrymen are punished for their deeds.

Such is war but when faced with insurmountable odds while your loved ones fall all around you common sense would tell you to stop. Wouldn't it?

But why stop when all of the world now sees the devil that you see? Why stop when instead of terrorists the world is now beginning to see you as noble rebels?

Why stop when you can seemingly no longer commit a wrong while your enemies' every move is heavily criticized? You're now just a product of your environment.

If you want to truly hurt someone you go after that which they most love, but Hamas hates Israel more than they love anything else in the world.

To them the pain of Israel no matter how small is far more important than the pain of thousands of Palestinians so they'll continue to fight. And they'll continue to die.

And unbiased sources will continue to chastise Israel. And the suffering of the Palestinians will continue on. All because the goals and egos of a few men outweighed the needs of the many. There's no other logical reason why they're continuing their clearly ineffective offensive tactics regardless of what they say they're fighting for.

There is no good and bad here. This entire conflict is far too long and complicated to merely sum up as "Israel bad".

There are mistakes on both sides that have led us here. This may not end until one of these countries is gone and at this rate it will end up being Palestine.

But if Hamas stops now at least they can prolong their existence. Stop with the proposals and demands and just end it.

Later they can all sit down and talk about the future and hopefully find a way to coexist but for right now it should be merely about survival.

I'm done. I just wrote a mini essay. Pretty much all that I have to say is in this post.

Feel free to rep it or call it ******** or whatever but just don't post expecting a response.

I'd just be reiterating whatever was already in here. Longest damn post I've ever typed

I hope this conflict ends soon and that when it does the people of Palestine are still here.

Peace yall

 

[me love nutella]

Thanks for your input and discussing civilly. I will have to disagree with many points you laid out.

First off, there has been many instances of peaceful times, no impactful attacks by the Palestinian side yet Israel still oppressed, still violently killed Palestinians and still expanded land stealing. They would shut down demonstrators and kill nonviolent protesters for daring to protest against the occupation or for demanding rights.

They do not want peace. They lose from peace. They want Palestinians to be completely disparaged and go away and that's it. That's why they usually reject to negotiate with Palestinians and propose only their ceasefire s to be implemented on their own terms.

They've been this way long before Hamas came into power. Whether Palestinians have Ghandi as a leader or militants like Hamas, Israel will always behave this way until Palestinians stop resisting and just submit and give up themselves.

You need to look no further than how they treat the Israeli Arabs in their own country.

They will never be satisfied until the Palestinians cease to exist or completely surrender to the occupation.

 

[plansb]

Based Jesus I couldn't have said it better myself, Well thought out, well said.

 

[createdestroy]

even the Egyptians know what's really going on behind the scenes

An interesting assessment found on reddit:

The serious answer is they're "in hiding" in 5 star Gulf hotels in Qatar, UAE, etc. mingling with rich sheiks in hopes of getting bankrolling for Hamas.
That's what this spat is really all about for Hamas; the money.
They're out of cash, out of allies, their economy is dead, their workers aren't being paid, and they had to form a unity deal with Fatah in hopes of getting the aid money that the PA gets.
And now Israel won't let that happen.
They're hoping the rich gulf state sheiks will hand out money to the tough fighters like they do with ISIS and groups like them.

They will probably get the funding they want eventually. It wouldn't be in the interest of most of the Arab/Muslim states to let one of the biggest resistance groups against Israel just disappear.
The Arab states need to keep up their confrontation with Israel without actually confronting them, so they use their proxies Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. to do their fighting for them.
Actual confrontation would be disastrous, but keeping the Israeli's occupied and on the defensive is better for their regional aspirations.
Also, Israel is the useful tool for channeling cultural/national rage and dissatisfaction towards something that's not their government.
It is great cover for their governments failures, and operations in other countries that a internationally questionable.
Israel's defense is wrapped up in fighting these groups while the Arab states fund ISIS and other groups that turn the region more to their favor.
But Israel's outsized focus and influence in the media and region provide cover for ISIS and the like.

 

[addy85]

even the Egyptians know what's really going on behind the scenes

An interesting assessment found on reddit:

These guys are scared of Israel, they talk like this because Israel literally scares the honor out of them. They closed their borders not because the want to, but because they're scared of the consequences. 

Even the Egyptians know what's really going on behind the scenes, lol you're right they do and their deathly afraid of it. Cowards 

 

[createdestroy]

even the Egyptians know what's really going on behind the scenes


An interesting assessment found on reddit:

These guys are scared of Israel, they talk like this because Israel literally scares the honor out of them. They closed their borders not because the want to, but because they're scared of the consequences. 

Even the Egyptians know what's really going on behind the scenes, lol you're right they do and their deathly afraid of it. Cowards 

Why is Egypt afraid of Israel?

 

[me love nutella]

createdestroy ,

Egypt are allied with Israel and the U.S. They also abhor Hamas for having links to the Muslim Brotherhood which is against the Egyptian government.

 

[addy85]

Why is Egypt afraid of Israel?

Because any Arab country who stands up for Palestine gets taken out. Egypt is deathly afraid of Israel and are allied with them.

 

[createdestroy]

Why is Egypt afraid of Israel?

Because any Arab country who stands up for Palestine gets taken out. Egypt is deathly afraid of Israel and are allied with them.

what do you mean by "Stands up" specifically.

What do you mean by "taken out" specifically.

Also, What other countries did they do these things to?

 

[createdestroy]

createdestroy ,

Egypt are allied with Israel and the U.S. They also abhor Hamas for having links to the Muslim Brotherhood which is against the Egyptian government.

If they are allied wwith the US and Israel, why are people saying they are "afraid"

 

[addy85]

what do you mean by "Stands up" specifically.

What do you mean by "taken out" specifically.

Also, What other countries did they do these things to?

Let me be more specific, if Egypt opened their border up to Gaza then Egypt would be bombed by Israel.

If an Arab country defended Palestine or dared to attack Israel they would be bombed by Israel.

Why do you think a country as strong as Iran who "hates Israel as they say" has never dared to attack them. Because they know if they attack Israel or send in troops to defend the Palestinians in Gaza they would be bombed. It's simple, attack or stand against Israel and get bombed by Israel. Pretty easy concept. 

 

[flyeed]

 

 

 

 

 

 
Can we seriously stop with the rockets thing? It's been discussed a million times already.

If they want rockets to stop, accept a peace treaty. Stop building illegal settlements, end the blockade, stop harassing Palestinian civilians. Stop blowing up civilians.

@useref15
  this did not start because of rocket fire. stop trying to mislead people into thinking this is Israel being defensive.

The EU is a western political organization. You blatantly ignore neutral parties that condemn Israel. Human Rights Watch, a completely unbiased source completely exposed Israel and their whole human shield garbage.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians

Or they could clear out the entire Gaza strip which we see happening.
There is no sound strategy to firing these rockets.
They have nowhere near enough military power to coerce Israel into doing anything.
Even if I was palestinian there is no way I could back Hamas in this.
They're doing far more harm than they are help.
And what is it with you and this "completely unbiased" saying of yours?
Everyone is biased. There is no such thing as being completely unbiased.
Some of us are just better at hiding it than others.

I don't support Hamas. Read the post I just made. Also sharing facts, having an openness to both sides of the story, and having no reason to have an agenda = unbiased. What would people like Noam Chomsky, Jon Stewart, Human Rights Watch, Holocaust survivors, Orthodox Jews who protest Israel, etc. have to gain by being biased against Israel? That's not bias, these are just people that view the facts for what they are and formulate an opinion based on it.

I never said you supported Hamas. I said I don't understand how anyone could.
And the funny thing about bias is that you don't need to have anything to gain from it in order to have it.
Bias isn't logical. Our personal experiences will always influence how we view things.
Just look at how you keep posting quotes from "unbiased sources" that coincidentally support your personal stance on this matter.
Men lie, women lie, numbers are misinterpreted. It's easy to get people to believe what you want them to.
If I'm right Hamas is doing it right now at the cost of thousands. But I'm biased so if I were you I wouldn't take my words at face value.

Stewart briefly explains in his question to Hillary Clinton why he sees the reason someone would support them.

I think it's safe to say that sources like Chomsky, Stewart, Holocaust survivors, and Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's policies wouldn't be biased against the Jewish state. If anything they'd be biased in favor of it, unless you're implying they have some sort of self-hate complex or just want attention.

I can, with enough certainty, call certain things and people unbiased sources.

You're having trouble understanding the difference between bias and people with an open mind forming an opinion based on facts and then taking a stance in one way. There's a difference.

I have a relatively open mind. Here's my stance. Israel should never have been formed the way it was.

That land shouldn't have been taken and given to them without consulting those who were already there.

But they're there now and barring WW3 going nowhere anytime soon.

The blockade of Gaza is terrible yet understandable. Palestine and Israel hate each other, both the people and the governments.

They would gladly wipe each other off the map if they could do it without repercussions. Israel doesn't want weapons getting in that could help Palestine do so.

They don't want anything getting in or out that could help Palestine do so. The ability to trade with other nations and build up their economy could easily do that.

A strong Palestine is their worst nightmare. But they have the power to prevent this and so in order to uphold their national security have been preventing it.

Palestine would've done the same. But at least Palestine existed. True they're living in abject poverty, but at least they were still there and alive.

Where there's life, there's hope.

Now Hamas has gone on an offensive giving Israel a "legitimate" reason to go into the strip and further their goal to rid themselves of the "Palestine problem" forever.

However if Hamas stopped tomorrow Israel would be forced to as well. There is already an outrage over them using "inappropriate" amounts of force to deal with Hamas.

There's no way they could keep going if Hamas laid down their arms. Yet Hamas keeps fighting while their countrymen are punished for their deeds.

Such is war but when faced with insurmountable odds while your loved ones fall all around you common sense would tell you to stop. Wouldn't it?

But why stop when all of the world now sees the devil that you see? Why stop when instead of terrorists the world is now beginning to see you as noble rebels?

Why stop when you can seemingly no longer commit a wrong while your enemies' every move is heavily criticized? You're now just a product of your environment.

If you want to truly hurt someone you go after that which they most love, but Hamas hates Israel more than they love anything else in the world.

To them the pain of Israel no matter how small is far more important than the pain of thousands of Palestinians so they'll continue to fight. And they'll continue to die.

And unbiased sources will continue to chastise Israel. And the suffering of the Palestinians will continue on. All because the goals and egos of a few men outweighed the needs of the many. There's no other logical reason why they're continuing their clearly ineffective offensive tactics regardless of what they say they're fighting for.

There is no good and bad here. This entire conflict is far too long and complicated to merely sum up as "Israel bad".

There are mistakes on both sides that have led us here. This may not end until one of these countries is gone and at this rate it will end up being Palestine.

But if Hamas stops now at least they can prolong their existence. Stop with the proposals and demands and just end it.

Later they can all sit down and talk about the future and hopefully find a way to coexist but for right now it should be merely about survival.

I'm done. I just wrote a mini essay. Pretty much all that I have to say is in this post.

Feel free to rep it or call it ******** or whatever but just don't post expecting a response.

I'd just be reiterating whatever was already in here. Longest damn post I've ever typed

I hope this conflict ends soon and that when it does the people of Palestine are still here.

Peace yall

First off. You don't seem as unbiased as you think you are or claim to be. You're the first person in this thread who threw around the lovely buzzword of anti-semitism, which you then backtracked on. You also suggest that Israel is the victim being provoked and the media and popular opinion is favorable to Palestinians, a notion that I don't know anyone who is legitimately unbiassed ever has expressed and is typically associated with Zionists. The reason I'm bringing this up is that you're using unbiasedness as a platform to increase your credibility.

Next thing. The old hypothetical well they would do it too. I touched on that early on in the thread.

You can't just go on fighting and killing innocent civilians because of the hypothetical "they would [do the same thing]." We live in a country where there's a justice system of innocent until proven guilty. 3 Israelis died, nobody knows who did it, and innocent people who are guilty of nothing are getting their homes destroyed and are getting killed and having to bury their children.

And FYI, if the tables were turned, and there had already been treaties where territory was divided and agreed upon that Palestine did not respect, and were slaughtering civilians…they would be wrong too. But either way, this is just a hypothetical. We're talking about real life and real deaths. The reality is that there could be peace. Israel just doesn't accept it so they could continue their expansion and extermination of Palestinians.

Sorry but blockades where you keep out shoes, paper, tea, foods that people enjoy, materials to build/re-build infrastructure (that Israel destroys,) etc. is not acceptable or understandable because they're worried of a "strong Palestine." That's not the reason for it, and to suggest it is makes little sense if any. And also it can't be justified by hypotheticals. The blockade is dehumanizing and degrading. Our founding fathers went to war over taxes on tea and sending out letters made of paper. Palestinians were blockaded from even having it. Their official policy on blockading, which was rephrased by Noam Chomsky, is to just allow them to bring in things to keep them alive. They don't want them to starve to death, but just let them live an undignified life.

If you want to truly hurt someone you go after that which they most love, but Hamas hates Israel more than they love anything else in the world. 

I'm trying to be mature enough to not stone face you, but you sound like one of those children who says things like "why do they hate our freedom?" How do you know how much someone who just had his little brothers, sisters, nephews, and/or nieces die loved them, relative to the amount that they hate Israel? I've done irrational things out of anger, and this is without having some that I loved die. Some of you guys have such a difficult time grasping the humanity of things.  And maybe their "goals and egos" (or understandable rage and anger) would be put to the side if non-violent means had a positive track record in this conflict, and they saw a way out. They don't.

It's possible for a peaceful 2-state solution to work even with everything that's happened. People are dying so Israel can continue it's expansion and ethnic cleansing. Not so it can defend itself. 

 

[me love nutella]

Has anyone watched this? So so sad. Makes my heart ache reading how his family found out he died and having to see the killing of their son.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...eo-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian

 

[me love nutella]

I'm trying to be mature enough to not stone face you, but you sound like one of those children who says things like "why do they hate our freedom?" How do you know how much someone who just had his little brothers, sisters, nephews, and/or nieces die loved them, relative to the amount that they hate Israel? I've done irrational things out of anger, and this is without having some that I loved die. Some of you guys have such a difficult time grasping the humanity of things.  And maybe their "goals and egos" (or understandable rage and anger) would be put to the side if non-violent means had a positive track record in this conflict, and they saw a way out. They don't.
 

It is a Zionist rhetoric. Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their children. He said Hamas instead but I have heard Zionists say it about Palestinians in general. Just another way to demonize Palestinians as heartless monsters who want to kill off their children despite them dying by Israeli aggression. Same as the bull used now, it's Hamas' fault, they're using Palestinians as human shields. It is how they deny responsibility of the blood on their hands.

 

[createdestroy]

what do you mean by "Stands up" specifically.


What do you mean by "taken out" specifically.


Also, What other countries did they do these things to?

Let me be more specific, if Egypt opened their border up to Gaza then Egypt would be bombed by Israel.

If an Arab country defended Palestine or dared to attack Israel they would be bombed by Israel.

Why do you think a country as strong as Iran who "hates Israel as they say" has never dared to attack them. Because they know if they attack Israel or send in troops to defend the Palestinians in Gaza they would be bombed. It's simple, attack or stand against Israel and get bombed by Israel. Pretty easy concept. 

So they are going to start bombing egypt today?

Egypt opens border with Gaza to allow airstrike casualties in for medical care
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irstrike-casualties-medical-care-palestinians

Iran has been directly funding and training Hezbollah...... your points aren't congruent with the reality of the situation.
I need somebody with more knowledge of the situation to answer my questions.

 

[useref15]

It is a Zionist rhetoric. Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their children. He said Hamas instead but I have heard Zionists say it about Palestinians in general. Just another way to demonize Palestinians as heartless monsters who want to kill off their children despite them dying by Israeli aggression. Same as the bull used now, it's Hamas' fault, they're using Palestinians as human shields. It is how they deny responsibility of the blood on their hands.

So then what has Hamas done to protect its kids?

 

[flyeed]

 

It is a Zionist rhetoric. Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their children. He said Hamas instead but I have heard Zionists say it about Palestinians in general. Just another way to demonize Palestinians as heartless monsters who want to kill off their children despite them dying by Israeli aggression. Same as the bull used now, it's Hamas' fault, they're using Palestinians as human shields. It is how they deny responsibility of the blood on their hands.

So then what has Hamas done to protect its kids?

 
Jon Stewart (Jewish and born Jon Leibowitz) is one of my biggest influences politically. I just wish he'd use his influence and tackle this issue harder instead of just touching on it here and there.

Last night he made a great point. That questioning the effectiveness and humanity of Israel's policies is not the same thing as supporting Hamas. It applies perfectly to this thread. Whenever people call out Israel indiscriminately killing civilians, we just hear "Well Hamas this Hamas that blah blah." People need to stop detracting from the important issue which is the slaughter of civilians to bring up political policies of Hamas. We're not here to defend Hamas, we're here to raise awareness about people getting murdered and the world thinking it's justified because of lies.

90% of your posts have no depth or intelligence and sound like they belong on the comments section in youtube or TMZ. There are grown ups here trying to have real discussions.

 

[me love nutella]

Iran has been directly funding and training Hezbollah....... so why is iran not afraid of israel?

Huh? What does that have to do with not being afraid of Israel. They'd never attack Israel because WW3 would break out and that would be a strategically horrible move for Iran to do.

 

[useref15]

You discredit anything I say anyway, so what's the point? You didn't answer the question.

 

[addy85]

So they are going to start bombing egypt today?

Egypt opens border with Gaza to allow airstrike casualties in for medical care
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irstrike-casualties-medical-care-palestinians

Iran has been directly funding and training Hezbollah...... your points aren't congruent with the reality of the situation.
I need somebody with more knowledge of the situation to answer my questions.

Knowledge? How about 9 years of living it? That enough knowledge for you?

Hezbollah is in Lebanon so that comment is pointless, Egypt is scared of Israel and anyone who thinks other wise is denying the truth. Go there, be my guest, go live it, go see everything with your own eyes, watch the people bleed to death while the Egyptians watch and get permission from the Israeli government before they go in and help. 

 

[me love nutella]

So then what has Hamas done to protect its kids?

Stupid question.

 

[duba169]

the most biased ones in here are crying about bias. Egypt doesn't open their borders because they don't want the palestinans in their country. it's not that complicated. blah blah blah "propoganda"

 

[bravelude]

the most biased ones in here are crying about bias. Egypt doesn't open their borders because they don't want the palestinans in their country. it's not that complicated. blah blah blah "propoganda"

Exactly, aint no equal opportunity at the border.

What about the USA lol. NY now giving citizenship to refugees and giving them free everything at expense of tax payers and citizens.

Send the illegals back. Stop smooching and free loading. We need a Republican !!!

 

[createdestroy]

Iran has been directly funding and training Hezbollah....... so why is iran not afraid of israel?

Huh? What does that have to do with not being afraid of Israel. They'd never attack Israel because WW3 would break out and that would be a strategically horrible move for Iran to do.

hezbollah has attacked israel and remains a deterrent force in lebanon.
If Iran puts money into and trains a military force in a country bordering israel already... why are you saying they are scared to help Palestine?

Do they have an alliance or treaty with palestine saying they must give military support?
What if Iran sees no gain in helping palestine... is that a valid reason not to help? or are they somehow obligated in your head?