Police Kill Unarmed Teen In Ferguson, Missouri

Fed. R. Evid. 404(a)(2)(B). I'm too lazy to look at Missouri's rules of evidence but it probably reflects the federal rules.
 
ThEPoiNTGoD said:
 
Nako XL said:
You're not explaining anything to me though and that's my point. Trust me.

And what you're saying is not the truth.



Those two highlighted statements directly contradict each other.

Are you introducing it as character evidence against Michael Brown or not.

Evidence of his motive? What?

And if not as evidence of Brown's character then what exactly would you get the video in as? What purpose would it serve other than to be prejudicial.

Your failure to understand what Jewbacca is saying is why I asked you, where you get your law degree at doe?
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Evidence of one's mindset for his actions and evidence of one's character are NOT THE SAME THING. If you really want to know my credentials, PM me.
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In a criminal murder trial, Darren Wilson can not introduce THAT video as evidence unless it's to argue Michael Brown had a reputation for violence that he was aware of.

He had not seen the video prior to the fatal shooting. He didn't even say he had Michael Brown's description. He had Dorian Johnson's.

Therefore there's no way the video gets in as CHARACTER EVIDENCE justifying his use of deadly force in self-defense.

If you're going to argue the video was used as a motive for Brown's violence, which you started to do then backed off, the prosecutor would just argue that Wilson had told Brown to get on the sidewalk and he could be on his way, so it's not like the video is evidence of Brown fleeing police. In fact Wilson argues Brown approach and initiated a confrontation with HIM.

Plus the video is wildly prejudicial. The only way it gets in is if the prosecutor allows it, which based on how the Grand Jury proceedings went who knows, maybe he would. But in a real trial, no way they allow it.

And yes I know evidence of mindset and character are not the same thing. The point your missing is you can't argue Brown's mindset, you can only argue reputation. And Wilson had no knowledge of his reputation. If Brown was the defendant in a criminal trial, you could argue he had a reputation for violence but not when he's the victim.

And no I'm not going to PM you for your credentials.

You've flexed enough.
 
Jewbacca2 said:
He's watched a lot of episodes of law and order and he slept at a holiday inn express last night.
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Nako XL said:
In a criminal murder trial, Darren Wilson can not introduce THAT video as evidence unless it's to argue Michael Brown had a reputation for violence that he was aware of.

He had not seen the video prior to the fatal shooting. He didn't even say he had Michael Brown's description. He had Dorian Johnson's.

Therefore there's no way the video gets in as CHARACTER EVIDENCE justifying his use of deadly force in self-defense.

If you're going to argue the video was used as a motive for Brown's violence, which you started to do then backed off, the prosecutor would just argue that Wilson had told Brown to get on the sidewalk and he could be on his way, so it's not like the video is evidence of Brown fleeing police. In fact Wilson argues Brown approach and initiated a confrontation with HIM.

Plus the video is wildly prejudicial. The only way it gets in is if the prosecutor allows it, which based on how the Grand Jury proceedings went who knows, maybe he would. But in a real trial, no way they allow it.

And yes I know evidence of mindset and character are not the same thing. The point your missing is you can't argue Brown's mindset, you can only argue reputation. And Wilson had no knowledge of his reputation. If Brown was the defendant in a criminal trial, you could argue he had a reputation for violence but not when he's the victim.

And no I'm not going to PM you for your credentials.

You've flexed enough.
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I'm NOT ARGUING CHARACTER EVIDENCE. BUT EVEN if we were going down the character evidence route, FRE 404(a)(2) literally has the carve-out to allow introduction of the videotape right there. LOOK AT IT.
 
Nako XL said:
In a criminal murder trial, Darren Wilson can not introduce THAT video as evidence unless it's to argue Michael Brown had a reputation for violence that he was aware of.

He had not seen the video prior to the fatal shooting. He didn't even say he had Michael Brown's description. He had Dorian Johnson's.

Therefore there's no way the video gets in as CHARACTER EVIDENCE justifying his use of deadly force in self-defense.

If you're going to argue the video was used as a motive for Brown's violence, which you started to do then backed off, the prosecutor would just argue that Wilson had told Brown to get on the sidewalk and he could be on his way, so it's not like the video is evidence of Brown fleeing police. In fact Wilson argues Brown approach and initiated a confrontation with HIM.

Plus the video is wildly prejudicial. The only way it gets in is if the prosecutor allows it, which based on how the Grand Jury proceedings went who knows, maybe he would. But in a real trial, no way they allow it.

And yes I know evidence of mindset and character are not the same thing. The point your missing is you can't argue Brown's mindset, you can only argue reputation. And Wilson had no knowledge of his reputation. If Brown was the defendant in a criminal trial, you could argue he had a reputation for violence but not when he's the victim.

And no I'm not going to PM you for your credentials.

You've flexed enough.
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Spot on and exactly what I was trying to convey.
 
ThEPoiNTGoD said:
 
Jewbacca2 said:
He's watched a lot of episodes of law and order and he slept at a holiday inn express last night.
Click to expand...
Nako XL said:
In a criminal murder trial, Darren Wilson can not introduce THAT video as evidence unless it's to argue Michael Brown had a reputation for violence that he was aware of.

He had not seen the video prior to the fatal shooting. He didn't even say he had Michael Brown's description. He had Dorian Johnson's.

Therefore there's no way the video gets in as CHARACTER EVIDENCE justifying his use of deadly force in self-defense.

If you're going to argue the video was used as a motive for Brown's violence, which you started to do then backed off, the prosecutor would just argue that Wilson had told Brown to get on the sidewalk and he could be on his way, so it's not like the video is evidence of Brown fleeing police. In fact Wilson argues Brown approach and initiated a confrontation with HIM.

Plus the video is wildly prejudicial. The only way it gets in is if the prosecutor allows it, which based on how the Grand Jury proceedings went who knows, maybe he would. But in a real trial, no way they allow it.

And yes I know evidence of mindset and character are not the same thing. The point your missing is you can't argue Brown's mindset, you can only argue reputation. And Wilson had no knowledge of his reputation. If Brown was the defendant in a criminal trial, you could argue he had a reputation for violence but not when he's the victim.

And no I'm not going to PM you for your credentials.

You've flexed enough.
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I'm NOT ARGUING CHARACTER EVIDENCE. BUT EVEN if we were going down the character evidence route, FRE 404(a)(2) literally has the carve-out to allow introduction of the videotape right there. LOOK AT IT.
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[h1]Rule 404. Character Evidence; Crimes or Other Acts[/h1]
(a) Character Evidence.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person’s character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.

(2) Exceptions for a Defendant or Victim in a Criminal Case. The following exceptions apply in a criminal case:

(A) a defendant may offer evidence of the defendant’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;

Wilson is the defendant. Wilson is allowed to introduce evidence of his own character or reputation and the prosecutor is then allowed to shred him. What does a video of Brown robbing a store have to do with Wilson committing a homicide? What does the video tell us about Wilson's reputation?

Seriously. How does Wilson get the video in with that Rule? BROWN can introduce the video but why would the prosecution do that?

Now I know for a fact you have no credentials.
 
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Under 404 a2B, I can't imagine that you would be able to offer specific instances.

That would be way too prejudicial.
 
Jewbacca2 said:
Under 404 a2B, I can't imagine that you would be able to offer specific instances.

That would be way too prejudicial.
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If Wilson had specific knowledge of the act prior to engaging Brown then the robbery but probably not the actual tape of it could get in.

But Wilson didn't see the tape or know who Brown was, so I'm not even considering that.
 
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Been saying he paid but didn't show I.D. since that video was released.

Who is that nonchalant when stealing? Taking time out to talk to the guy he is stealing from while committing a crime? Why didn't the store owner report that there had been a theft?

But Mike Brown stealing fit the agenda and gave excuse for the wilson's actions.

"Big Black man and he committed "Strong Arm" robbery he must of deserved it or at least had it coming."

Police chief knew what he was doing when he released that video. Nobody in the media was asking for that video. Character Assassination!!!

If a crime was committed in that convenience store, why wasn't Mike Brown's friend arrested as an accessory to the "Strong Arm" robbery?

Wonder if any of the racists who donated all that money to wilson will help out that store owner? Since they seem to be so concerned with the Ferguson community all of a sudden
 
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I found some other countries' take on the events in Ferguson:  First, China:
 
Commentary: A shameful scar in U.S. human rights history
English.news.cn 2014-11-26 16:17:53
http://niketalk.com/t/603342/police-kill-unarmed-teen-in-ferguson-missouri/10920#post_22077947


by Li Li

BEIJING, Nov. 26 (Xinhua) -- There are probably few other countries in the world as self-righteous and complacent as the United States when it comes to human rights issues, but the Ferguson tragedy is apparently a slap in the face.

Following a grand jury decision on Monday not to indict white police officer Darren Wilson, who shot dead African-American teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, protests and demonstrations have flared up and expanded to scores of cities across the United States.

After the ruling, Barack Obama, the country's first African-American president, called for respect for "the rule of law" in an hour-long speech Monday night.

The tragic incident and the subsequent ruling are characterized as a miscarriage of justice and a violation of human rights.

Besides, the very fact that an incident that happened in a small town more than three month ago has triggered long-standing, widespread public indignation against the country's law enforcement system is strongly demonstrative of some deeply-rooted maladies in the United States, a self-styled human rights defender and judge.

Racial divide remains a chronic disease after civil rights leader Martin Luther King delivered half a century ago the landmark speech "I have a dream" and voiced his aspiration for equal rights of the black people in the country.

In its worst violence in recent times, the acquittal of four white policemen in the beating of a black motorist in 1992 sparked a six-day riot involving thousands of people across the metropolitan area of Los Angeles, leaving as many as 51 people dead.

In history, racial tensions cut deep in the United States. a country that always points its fingers at other countries on the issue.

Today, the scar is obviously far from being fully healed, as a recent survey showed that some 51 percent of Americans do not believe African-Americans could be treated equally with the white people by the law enforcement.

Some might argue that racial differences and conflicts are unavoidable in a "melting pot" like the United States, where people come from virtually every corner of the world.

But it is undeniable that racial discrimination against African Americans or other ethnic minorities, though not as obvious as in the past, still persists in every aspect of the U.S. social lives, including employment, housing, education, and particularly, justice.

The death of Brown should serve as a stark reminder for Uncle Sam that there are a lot of human rights violations in its own soil and that it should first fix its own problems before criticizing other countries.

It is highly advisable that all countries, including the United States, enhance communication and cooperation on human rights issues and learn from each other's experiences and lessons to make improvement rather than point fingers at others.
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http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-11/26/c_133815866.htm
 
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Germany:
 
Benefit of the doubt. The grand jury ultimately decided against a trial. Apparently there were too many conflicting statements from witnesses. There was no evidence that Officer Darren Wilson acted negligently or broke a law. In a statement, Officer Wilson defended the killing of the 18-year-old boy, saying he acted in accordance with his training. His words seem cold, dogmatic - the perpetrator posing as the victim. It would have been better for him to have remained silent.

Second-class police

With his statement, Wilson only rubbed salt in the wound, making it difficult for African Americans - not only in Ferguson - to accept the decision of the grand jury. Wilson is certainly not an appealing figure. He personifies world-wide prejudices about American police forces - shoot first, ask questions later. The bad thing about some prejudices is that they are occasionally true.


Miodrag Soric runs DW's Washington Bureau

The statistics speak for themselves. Police use of excessive force against African Americans remains a problem in the USA, even if US citizens refuse to accept this reality. Police officer training and standards are deficient in some areas. Some of the standards are certainly different to the ones in place in Germany. It would, for example, be unthinkable that someone who was not good enough for a police job in Frankfurt would be allowed to join the force in Ludwigshafen. But exactly that is what is happening in the state of Missouri. Good police are allowed, for example, to patrol in St. Louis, while less accomplished officers - to euphemize it - are allowed to "prove themselves" in social flashpoint neighborhoods like Ferguson. There they are "second-class police officers," and poorly paid as well. Not exactly good motivation.

New racial unrest?

The death of Michael Brown is more than just a tragedy. It is more than just a single case in which an apparently overpowered police officer grasped hastily for his gun. Comparable cases happen almost every day across the USA, but only few make headlines. The Michael Brown case has the potential to trigger nationwide racial unrest. Much depends on how the case is handled politically, and above all, how President Obama and others in Washington respond.


Protests against a grand jury's decision not to indict Darren Wilson erupted across the USA

Local politicians in Missouri have proved that they are hopelessly out of their depth. For example, Governor Jay Nixon in an interview was unable to say who is ultimately responsible for security in Ferguson. He stutters around so much that he is becoming the laughing stock of the entire nation.

The prosecuting attorney Robert P. McCulloch isn't exactly shining in this case either. Immediately after Michael Brown's death, many accused the attorney of being biased. The reason: McCulloch's father was a police officer who was shot to death by an African American. McCulloch decided the jury should sift through all the evidence under the motto "Let them decide." It would have been better for him to have left the case to a special prosecutor who would have then gone over the evidence with the grand jury. But McCulloch rejected this. Maybe out of vanity, maybe out of a misguided sense of duty.

Ultimately, McCulloch has done his city no service. The ranks of overmatched local politicians in Ferguson will let themselves carry on, the mayor of Ferguson is just one of many. Admittedly, there is little to be done against incompetence in politics. The citizens must elect new representatives.

The disappointment over the politics and over justice in the USA cannot however be an excuse for violent riots, which we have unfortunately seen. Whoever loots businesses or burns cars belongs in prison. The residents of Ferguson should ask themselves what they can do to diffuse the tense situation. Michael Brown's parents have set a good example. They are calling for calm and peaceful actions. Representatives of local churches, unions and NGOs are acting similarly. They all have a special responsibility during these difficult days.
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http://www.dw.de/opinion-hopelessly-swamped-in-ferguson/a-18085541
 
mgrand15 said:
Is there any truth to the story that Brown paid for the cigarillos but just refused to show his ID? Thats why the dude grabbed him.
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Nah. Just a Twitter narrative that caught on.


AEA18 said:
Been saying he paid but didn't show I.D. since that video was released.

Who is that nonchalant when stealing? Taking time out to talk to the guy he is stealing from while committing a crime? Why didn't the store owner report that there had been a theft?
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This is what Dorian Johnson said about the incident:


Johnson testified he had planned to pay for the cigarillos, but Brown reached over the counter and grabbed them. Brown walked toward the door and the store clerk rushed around the counter to prevent his exit. He shoved the clerk and left the store. As they walked out, the clerk said he would call the police.
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“I asked [Brown], I looked at him, actually, looked at him for a while and stared at him because the times when I did meet him before that day, he didn’t strike me as a person who would do anything like that. … He was basically laughing it off, be cool, be calm, stuff like that, laughing it off, but in my head I’m like, I can’t be calm, I can’t be cool because I know what just happened and we were on camera,” Johnson said.
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youngwolf said:
mgrand15 said:
Is there any truth to the story that Brown paid for the cigarillos but just refused to show his ID? Thats why the dude grabbed him.
Click to expand...


Nah. Just a Twitter narrative that caught on.


AEA18 said:
Been saying he paid but didn't show I.D. since that video was released.

Who is that nonchalant when stealing? Taking time out to talk to the guy he is stealing from while committing a crime? Why didn't the store owner report that there had been a theft?
Click to expand...



This is what Dorian Johnson said about the incident:


Johnson testified he had planned to pay for the cigarillos, but Brown reached over the counter and grabbed them. Brown walked toward the door and the store clerk rushed around the counter to prevent his exit. He shoved the clerk and left the store. As they walked out, the clerk said he would call the police.
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“I asked [Brown], I looked at him, actually, looked at him for a while and stared at him because the times when I did meet him before that day, he didn’t strike me as a person who would do anything like that. … He was basically laughing it off, be cool, be calm, stuff like that, laughing it off, but in my head I’m like, I can’t be calm, I can’t be cool because I know what just happened and we were on camera,” Johnson said.
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Why wasn't he arrested? Johnson would have been an accessory to Strong Arm robbery. Why didn't the store owner report it?
 
Jetpacunlimited said:
SkurrtSkurrt29 said:
Then find me something, anything, that shows me a white kid getting killed by police for waving around a toy gun and I'll gladly shut up. Because just this year OUR young, black men are 0-2 when carrying a toy gun.
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Its like most white people that always spout off to me that the Mike Brown MURDER wasn't about race, they can't find a similar situation with blacks cops vs white teens.
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An unarmed white kid was gunned down in Utah by a black cop just a few days after the Mike Brown shooting, tho.

They happen, you just don't hear about it because that story won't cause a media frenzy.
 
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Just some facts:
The 2013 FBI Uniform Crime Report, a compilation of annual crime statistics

The danger to a black child in America is not a white police officer.

90 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders;
83 percent of white victims were killed by white offenders;
The report found most murders were intraracial, committed by friends or acquaintances of the victim.

I wish all this energy, passion and attention were brought to a more worthy cause. In my opinion, on the preventative measures and prison system in America. Those are such bigger issues than any possible "race" issue this is (and i personally believe this wasn't a race issue, rather a stupid victim and a shook/angry/power-tripping/short-sighted cop).
 
Hyper said:
An unarmed white kid was gunned down in Utah by a black cop just a few days after the Mike Brown shooting, tho.

They happen, you just don't hear about it because that story won't cause a media frenzy.
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white and hispanic

and he perpetrated as if he had a weapon 
 
Hyper said:
An unarmed white kid was gunned down in Utah by a black cop just a few days after the Mike Brown shooting, tho.

They happen, you just don't hear about it because that story won't cause a media frenzy.
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more like its the extreme minority

you find one story, and that makes up for every other story we hear and the fact we know in real life it goes the other way
 
It's so upsetting to see the racists rise to the surface in this thread and be so damn blind. Awful and sickening.
 
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