Originally Posted by Methodical Management
Nothing I quoted in parody of the "tolerate my intolerance crowd" was any more ridiculous than your attempt to invoke segregation-era psychology to paint same sex couples as "deviants." By that standard, people who practice Judaism are "deviant," because it's non-normative. You would never stoop to using the term in other contexts, knowing that it is so heavily value-laden. Your attempt to dress your rebuke of same sex couples in pseudo-intellectual language is based on little more than a loaded Google query or a textbook/wikipedia blurb about Havelock Ellis. I see no evidence whatsoever to suggest that you've actually attempted to study these issues with any depth or rigor. (If you had, you'd at the very least stop acting like all gay people are affluent White men.)
As long as we can agree your falsly quoted comments were ridiculous. And yes, while "deviant" maybe wasn't the best choice of words based on assumed connotations, it is technically accurate. Just as jews in an overwhelmingly christian nation are deviating from the norm, is technically accurate. That word invoked segregation-era psychology FOR YOU. It invoked Havelock Ellis FOR YOU. YOU view the use of the word "deviant" as stooping low. I don't need to google my own opinions or base them on some doctor thats been dead nearly a century. You made that connection based on your (wrong) assumptions about my commentary and choice of vocabulary. I'd never heard of him. Having said all that, I will take responsibility for my part in muddying the waters with a word like "deviant", it was not my intention to use derogatory language. Non-normative is a perfectly effective synonym if you prefer.
In reality, you're just looking to justify a bias and then, without irony, force that bias down everyone else's throats. It's so transparently disingenuous of you to pretend that this is just another "opinion."
You say you're not about discriminating against or intruding upon other people's love and that your opinion is just your opinion, but you're in an awful lot of these threads for it to be "just an opinion."
I see you've left the false quotations behind and gone straight to telling me what my intentions are in this thread. In reality? Your assumptions have no basis in reality, in reality. When and where have I tried to force my "bias" down anyones throat? I could more easily say that about your crowd than you can about any of my statements in this thread or any other. Quote me forcing my opinions on anyone. I'll wait.
Pretend it's just another opinion? Would you like to make yet another assumption about what my comments are if not purely opinion? Reach after reach after reach.
Additionally, I urge anyone reading this, you included, to click on my profile and view what threads I am in. Maybe 2-3 threads about homosexuality in the past year, if that. It is a minuscule amount you declared as "an awful lot". This is what you do every single time you post. Make **** up to make yourself look good. You've always been a one trick pony.
Again, explain to me how your "opinion" on sexuality is different than a man's "opinion" about women's purported innate inferiority. You won't, because your one and only strategy on this issue is to play defense and then talk down to people, as if attending an intro undergraduate psych/soc class with a bunch of frat boys in a lecture hall with stadium seating somehow makes you an expert.
For starters my opinion has nothing at all to do with inferiority or superiority. Your assumptions about my opinion? Who the hell knows at this point. My comments in here are so drastically different from a man claiming women are inferior perhaps you should tell us all how they are even remotely similar. And lets try not to make **** up this time, quote me if you wouldn't mind. I'll wait. Additionally, I have no problem admitting my own deviancy, sexual or otherwise, and have done so in this thread in case you missed that. Your inferiority/superiority point is invalid as I have placed myself in what I can only assume you believe would be the inferior category.
Talk down to people? I haven't checked but I have a suspicion that if I clicked on your profile I would see an overwhelming number of posts of you talking down on people. It's kinda what you do.
I find it amusing that, for all your talk about gender norms and "natural" behavior, your favorite pastime apparently involves putting lipstick on a pig.
My favorite pastime? I don't think you know me sir. I have no clue what you are talking about but I can only assume it is yet another veiled attempt at insult and I'm quite sure it has next to nothing to do with what we are discussing in here. Clarity would make your insults so much more effective. I'll give you a chance to elaborate if you feel it is relevant to the conversation.
You know how you love to say that you've "won" the argument whenever someone resorts to posting .gifs? I think it's fair to say that your childish fallback lines re: "jimmy rustling" fit squarely in that category. If you're just here to troll because you feel that it will upset people, you're no better than Bill O'Reilly or a common Internet troll.
Never said i won, not trying to win anything. It's simply a discussion, not a debate to be won or lost. When you post strawman after strawman, insults and just generally use a condescending tone it is indicative of you being rustled. Just the same as posting gifs means you don't really have anything of substance left to say. What intellectual discussion relies on gifs? If thats childish to point out then so be it. Stop posting nonsense and we won't have to go down that road. Oh, and i don't troll, check my history. I'm not here to upset people, I genuinely would like to understand the opposing point of view however farfetched that may seem to you.
This whole sad inversion ploy falls flat on its face when you consider that there's a causal relationship between your "opinions" and other people's opinions about your opinions.
If other people's opinions about your opinion - their "bigot bashing" - really makes your life worse, then how can you possibly sit there and pretend that your "opinions" about LGBTQA citizens are harmless and in no way discriminatory?
Again, this can't just be me and my opinions, it has to be some ploy, some agenda driven scheme to troll or become some internet message board winner? If thats really what you thought I doubt you would have responded with a novel.
Yes people have their opinions about my opinions. The problem lies in the fact that you attribute my opinion to bigotry or homophobia or whatever the buzzword for the day is incorrectly. If your opinion of my opinion is that I'm a bigot who wants to oppress and marginalize gays, well then you have not understood my opinion and I need to further clarify it for you. Comments or opinions of NTers have zero affect on my life, for better or worse. I won't assume that my opinion is harmless and in no way discriminatory towards gays, I don't think it is but I can only see out of my own eyes. Based on the fact I have not been banned, suspended or even so much as warned for my comments in here I don't believe I have been harmful and discriminatory towards gays. Let me know though, cause thats not the intention.
Hate the comparison all you want, but it's the same thing as the "war on Whites." The "war on Whites" is not a "war on Whites." It's a war on White Supremacy.
There are, certainly, anti-theists out there who hate Christians because they are Christian. It's not fair to place all LGBTQA people in that category. Any gripe someone has with you on that basis is a REACTION to your prejudice against them - not an unprovoked or unjustified attack on your character.
Not sure I follow you on these comments. How does the white vs. supremacy thing apply? What category did I place all LGBTQA in?
If I sit here and tell you that I'm willing to change my point of view, that I want to gain more insight into alternative perspectives and also that I have gay relatives that I love very much....and the response is to call me a bigot and a homophobe then yes, it is unprovoked and unjustified and flat out wrong.
I don't see anybody denigrating you because you're a straight, cisgender male who's exclusively attracted to straight, cisgender females and wears traditionally male clothing. If that's a form of discrimination, I've certainly never experienced it.
Never said they did. But then again, why would they? Fortunately, what I "identify" with is a requirement for humanity to exist so I don't have to deal with anyone questioning what it's all about. It's pretty self evident.
Similarly, when you walk down the street, nobody will discriminate against you because they can tell just by observing your behavior that you're "probably a homophobic bigot." Nobody's going to deny you service at a place of business.
Of course not. Because it's not true, not solely because it's not observable. Nice try though. Discrimination based on race, gender, sex or sexual orientation is illegal in this country so if an individual were to be discriminated against based on the above there would be proper legal recourse to address that. And I fully agree and support that.
Stop comparing your "struggle" as someone with increasingly outmoded, backwards, and unpopular views about sexuality with the struggles of those who have to deal with people like you and your ceaseless attempts to invalidate or demonize their relationships and their sexuality.
Lol this is a doosey. Never compared my struggle with that of homosexuals, in fact never even stated that I have a struggle. I'm very fortunate for my situation and have zero to complain about. I have never in my life discriminated against anyone, gay or otherwise. I have never used a gay slur to offend anyone in my life. I have never made an act of aggression or belittlement towards a gay person, ever. If gay people only had to "deal" with "people like me" we wouldn't be having this conversation. I challenge you to produce ONE quote from me, just one single quote of me demonizing and/or invalidating a gay couple. Shouldn't be too difficult seeing as how these attempts are "ceaseless" lol. I'll wait. And before you bring up "deviant" again I suggest you stop by dictionary.com before you do so.
When you morph into Internet troll/James Rustler mode and start spouting off about how the sky is falling because men are marrying men and that's "bad for society", you are attacking other people in a way that you are not, yourself, being attacked when attempting to live your normal life. Your "right" to do that is NOT on the same plane as someone who's just trying to live their lives and be accepted as an EQUAL in the society we're all supposed to share.
You are exaggerating as usual but honestly idk if it's bad for society. Is it good for society? Neutral? Were talking about a grand social exercise that is impossible to recreate experimentally or through mathematical modeling. The underlying issue for me is that no one knows what long term effects it may or may not have on society. I can definitely see unintended negative consequence for society as a whole, just the same there could be unintended positive consequences as well. And to be fair there could be little to no effect at all. Unfortunately we can't even have the discussion, we can't even ponder these things lest we be categorized as bigots and homophobes for lacking blind aceptance. Regardless of the effects on society, potential or even definite negative consequences are not justification for discrimination, marginalization or exclusion. If I posit that widespread acceptance of homosexual practices could potentially be harmful, counterproductive or unhealthy for society as a whole in the long term, that does not mean I want to eradicate or oppress homosexuals. If we could have that conversation we could take steps to avoid any negative consequences, we could nurture any positive consequences and insure society moves forward in a healthy, productive manner that is inclusive of all people.
Nobody is "making" your kids gay. If anything, the "push" that you're so deeply resentful of is a push for RESPECT. The point isn't to "make" your hypothetical son gay. The point is to encourage your hypothetical son to accept his gay neighbors, colleagues, relatives, and friends as equals.
Yes I am just soooo deeply resentful of other human beings wanting respect. My heart is filled to the brim with hatred for anyone who would dare be different and want respect. [/sarcasm]
I guess it's easier when everythings black and white. Your attitude is divisive and the struggles of the homosexual community will continue as long as people like you insist on alienating and belittling any and everyone who has a differing opinion. Not fact, not reality. Personal OPINION. Thats called bigotry, I'm sure you've heard of it.Edited by FrankMatthews - 12/1/15 at 11:50pm