--- THE OFFICIAL NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS THREAD --- OFFSEASON THREAD

[DeadsetAce]

yeah i mean to be fair, the "Von money" was probably his starting point. i'm sure he didn't expect to end up there...but that was the original number he threw out in negotiations

turning down $11M though? he got his ring, now he wants to get paid

 

[DeadsetAce]

After trading Jamie Collins, Bill Belichick must prove himself with Super Bowl ring

Greg A. Bedard
31 minutes ago

In the wake of the Patriots’ shocking trade of linebacker Jamie Collins to the Cleveland Browns on Monday, it’s now Super Bowl or bust for New England.

There were small rumblings of discontent last year after a series of questionable moves (poor coaching in New England’s Week 13 loss to Philadelphia) cost the Patriots home-field advantage in the playoffs, which likely helped swing the AFC Championship Game in favor of the Broncos. But if New England again fails to win the Lombardi Trophy this season, even the most ardent “In Bill We Trust” droids will question the recent defensive moves made by Patriots coach/demigod Bill Belichick, leading to thoughts that were once considered heresy: has the 64-year-old Hall-of-Famer-in-waiting started to lose his touch?

In March, the Patriots traded defensive end Chandler Jones for a second-round pick and former first-round guard Jonathan Cooper. The trade was understandable at the time because the Patriots were not going to pay market value ($15 million per year) for Jones, an inconsistent player who was going to be a free agent after the 2016 season. The second-round pick was more than the 2018 third-round compensatory selection the Patriots could have expected if they let Jones play out his contract and leave in free agency, so it made sense.

How has it worked out? Cooper was a complete bust and released, while Jones has gotten off to a great start this season for the Cardinals—ProFootballFocus.com rated Jones as the second-best pass rusher among edge players. Meanwhile, the Patriots are playing good bend-but-don’t-break defense (third in the league at 16.5 points allowed), but they’re struggling to get off the field as they’re No. 18 in third-down percentage and No. 27 in sack rate. Veteran Chris Long, a cheaper replacement, has not picked up Jones’ pass-rushing slack.

Collins was also in a contract year but this time the compensation is puzzling because it’s only a third-round pick, and it’s not even the Browns’ selection that would most likely be the first pick in the round. It’s a compensatory selection at the bottom, which will be tradable for the first time this year.

Collins, 27, was a second-round pick in 2013, but it quickly became evident that he had the physical skills that could make him one of the league’s best players. Collins is 6' 3", 250 pounds, long limbed, is fast and can jump out of buildings. There isn’t anything, from rushing the passer to covering slot receivers, that he can’t do on the field. And analysts, especially NBC’s Cris Collinsworth, were known to fawn over Collins.

But there was a lot of subtle inconsistencies to his play. Some days he’d completely dominate and make leaping blocks of field goals, and in other games, you wouldn’t notice him. Collins has never been the most cerebral player, but when the Patriots put him in position to utilize his best assets (coming forward on blitzes, or reading the eyes of the quarterback in the middle of the field and getting in passing lanes), Collins was one of the best defensive players in the league. You could argue that for the seven games Collins played last season (durability is another issue, and he doesn’t appear to be 100% now), he was the best player in the league with 5.5 sacks, five forced fumbles, six passes defensed and an interception. He had two gifted interceptions this season as well.

But with fellow linebacker Dont’a Hightower also in a contract year and unable to reach extensions with either, the Patriots were likely going to have to choose one or the other. It’s now clear that the Patriots view Hightower as their defensive leader of the future and are free to use the franchise tag on him.

The Patriots have also received very inspired play from rookie linebacker Elandon Roberts, just traded for Lions linebacker Kyle Van Noy (former second-round pick) and previously acquired Barkevious Mingo (former first-round pick) from the Browns. Obviously, New England thinks that the best pieces of each of those players (Roberts, a sideline to sideline tackling machine; Van Noy, a fleet-footed cover guy; and Mingo, an athletic pass rusher) can compensate for the near complete package Collins had.

That’s all well and good, but it’s certainly arguable that the Patriots’ most talented defense would have featured both Jones and Collins. The Patriots could have had that if they simply decided to let each player play out their contracts and walk in free agency.

Last season, the Patriots lost two games down the stretch to teams that hired new coaches in the off-season (Eagles and Dolphins), and it cost them home-field advantage in the playoffs. Each game featured some dubious coaching decisions (mortar kick against the Eagles, and running or throwing to only the running backs on their first 19 plays in a loss to Miami in the final game) that cost them a possible shot at the Super Bowl. If the AFC Championship Game was at Gillette Stadium instead of Mile High, the Patriots likely don’t lose 20–18 to the Broncos.

Belichick was largely given a pass for those decisions because he’s more than earned it, but if the Patriots fail to win the Super Bowl this season after Jones and Collins trades, the criticism will be real and unrelenting. New England regularly preaches about their financial discipline, the importance of depth and how no one is above the team.

The Patriots and Belichick may indeed be right again. New England is the most complete team in the AFC, and is the odds-on favorite to win another Super Bowl title. But if the team fails to deliver, New England will be talking about the Jones and Collins deals for years to come and, for the first time in a long time, questioning whether Belichick still makes all the right moves.

 

[cash money 1999]

bedard covering the patriots again?

 

[7th Chamber]

Playing the look ahead game, does anyone in the NFC scare you? I feel like Brady would carve up Dallas, but Zeke would get whatever he wants on us.

 

[DeadsetAce]

bedard covering the patriits again?

not like before, but he still does the weekly spot on Felger and Mazz radio Tuesday's 11-1.

definitely watches a lot of NE tape, but i've seen him cover other teams this year. Texans come to mind as well

 

[DeadsetAce]

Playing the look ahead game, does anyone in the NFC scare you? I feel like Brady would carve up Dallas, but Zeke would get whatever he wants on us.

Dallas scares me because of their ability to run, pass, and QB scramble
Atlanta scares me cause of their pass game, but I think we would destroy their defense
Seattle is always going to be tough
Minnesota because of their defense

i think we've be favored against each of those teams, though.

 

[7th Chamber]

not like before, but he still does the weekly spot on Felger and Mazz radio Tuesday's 11-1.

definitely watches a lot of NE tape, but i've seen him cover other teams this year. Texans come to mind as well

I enjoy his 3 up, 3 down and 10 Questions Around the League segments.

 

[7th Chamber]

On another note, 3 more wins for Brady to break Manning's all time career wins record

 

[DeadsetAce]

not like before, but he still does the weekly spot on Felger and Mazz radio Tuesday's 11-1.

definitely watches a lot of NE tape, but i've seen him cover other teams this year. Texans come to mind as well

I enjoy his 3 up, 3 down and 10 Questions Around the League segments.

same here

always try and tune in. i tweeted him this morning and he said they'll def be talking logic behind the Collins trade tomorrow too

 

[DeadsetAce]

some offensive line tid bits:

Solder allowed 3 sacks yesterday
Cannon was PERFECT in pass protection yesterday
Thuney allowed his first sack of the year (Jimmy G)

 

[paradise50]

Not even mad about Jamie Collins getting traded

 

[crazy ebw]

Playing the look ahead game, does anyone in the NFC scare you? I feel like Brady would carve up Dallas, but Zeke would get whatever he wants on us.

Dallas has that "team of destiny" where all the stars could align. Besides that, NFC is cheeks.

 

[rolaholic]

Playing the look ahead game, does anyone in the NFC scare you? I feel like Brady would carve up Dallas, but Zeke would get whatever he wants on us.

Dallas has that "team of destiny" where all the stars could align. Besides that, NFC is cheeks.

It's still early and anything can happen injury/healthwise so I'm not talking with any certainty here but no one really does it for me but I still think Seattle would be the toughest matchup again but TB and Co have already shown they've got what it takes to make it work even against that defense.

Also,Atlanta could definitely be a matchup nightmare though for the defense.

I still like this squad,minus Collins and all, over anyone in the league this year.

The performances that Elandon Roberts has been putting up lately lessens the blow of the trade imo.

 

[crazy ebw]

No way Atlanta has what it takes to make it to a Super Bowl with that defense

 

[DeadsetAce]

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- One of the most disappointing things that can happen after a player is traded is when previously undisclosed information comes to the forefront to make the player look bad in an attempt to justify the swap.

At the same time, when there is an unexpected trade, such as the one that unfolded Monday when the New England Patriots shipped linebacker Jamie Collins to the Cleveland Browns in a move that shook up parts of the Pats' locker room, it leads to more probing to hopefully learn what led to the decision.

Through conversations with players and additional reporting, a few thoughts and notes emerged to form what I believe were the primary factors that sparked the Pats' decision to trade Collins:

2016 was the end of the road. Bill Belichick had concluded that the Patriots and Collins were headed for a split after the season; this is the final year of Collins' contract. This trade accelerated the process to extinguish a potentially volatile situation down the road.

Economics were partly a catalyst for the split. Piecing together some nuggets of reported information can help provide possible context on why the sides were headed for a split.

While Collins' agent is on record as saying, "We never got into any real serious discussions," that is likely because both sides were so far apart when initial contract concepts were broached that there was no reason to negotiate further. This is a common negotiating tactic from the Patriots, to dip their toe in the water to get a sense of the contract landscape with a player, which can affect the team's future personnel planning.

In negotiations, it is generally understood that both sides will come in a bit higher or lower than where they're projected to end up, but when the gap is that wide initially, it usually doesn't end well (see Wes Welker).

Performance has been inconsistent. Collins was remarkable in the team's Week 3 shutout of the Houston Texans, with a team-high 14 tackles and an interception. But he also struggled in other games, particularly against the run, which led to the coaching staff's decision to limit his role Sunday against the Bills. Collins was taken off the field in what would be considered running situations, ultimately playing just 48 of 78 snaps. That was unusual for him, because he's normally a three-down player, and while Patriots' coaches sung Collins' praises Tuesday, their actions ultimately spoke louder than words. Collins was now viewed by them as a part-time player, as his inconsistency had reached a point that led to a reduced role.

With Super Bowl hopes in mind, why not play out the year? Many have asked why the Patriots would trade Collins in the middle of the season when they are 7-1 and Super Bowl contenders. From a purely on-the-field, football perspective, subtracting Collins, whom many in the locker room view as their most athletically gifted defender, doesn't make sense.

But one thing coaches consider is culture and how not every player responds the same way when he feels undervalued or that he is being used in a limited role. Some players can respond negatively, which can influence others. One could envision the Patriots feeling there was a risk of this happening, if it hadn't happened already.

Others who have played with Collins shared a viewpoint that because he is so athletically gifted, perhaps he hasn't always had to grind as hard as others. In the Patriots' culture, which stresses everyone pulling in the same direction, that would stand out.

At the same time, other teammates saw a player who was described as fully engaged. Meanwhile, as Collins' agent said to Ian Rapoport of NFL Network, Collins is excited to be part of a franchise he feels wants him.

Piecing it all together, the sense is that the sides had been gradually growing apart.

Belichick doesn't elaborate with players either. One player close to Collins was emotional about the trade, saying the hardest part is not knowing why he was traded. That reflects the shock that was felt in some, but not all, corners of the locker room. In addressing players Tuesday, Belichick, who has the final say in these matters, essentially told them the same thing he told reporters: that he made the decision in the best interest of the team.

While players such as cornerback Malcolm Butler expressed their surprise at the deal, others weren't as taken aback, because Collins was viewed as a bit more distant and private compared with other teammates. Some reporters covering the Patriots had a similar experience, and Collins is seldom, if ever, around during the media-access period for interviews. He's maybe conducted three interviews all year.

 

[jham15]

Just read that. The more that I've read and let it sink in, the more I'm okay with it.
Still appreciate Collins and gonna miss him, but something was definitely up. Roberts has looked impressive tho and I don't think this will affect us much.

 

[DeadsetAce]

yeah the more that you read, hear, and digest about all this...just sounds like the best move for both parties. i hope Mingo and Van Noy can come in contribute. we'll need to be better on defense.

 

[getback]

 

[DeadsetAce]

View media item 2218196

it's not even a discussion anymore. but people get tight when you say anything about their childhood heroes

 

[getback]

Bye week

 

[green rhino123]

Bye week

:\

 

[DeadsetAce]

Collins just gave up a pretty bad TD to Witten

doesn't justify the move, but it's just funny

 

[DeadsetAce]

Bedard's Midseason Ups/Down and Grades

3 Up:
QBs
Hightower
Blount

3 Down:
Nickel Corners
Logan Ryan
Shaq Mason

Defense Grade: C

makes sense for the most part. i'd say the defense deserves a little more credit based on points per game allowed. but as far as play making, lot left to be desired. redzone defense needs a big kick in the ***. third down defense has improved a bit but needs work for sure.

 

[green rhino123]

Checking in for tonight's game!

 

[DeadsetAce]

Let's go!!! 2 weeks to prepare for this one. hope the coaches got us ready to roll