2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

[sea manup]

That TNT promo though...

meh been done before

41/50

 

[ravagebx]

 

If you're impeding the defender? Hell yes!? Why not let him walk CP3 all the way to the rim while CP3 is making up his mind then? Lol

The onus should be on the screener to set the screen in one location and the ball handler to utilize the screen set in that location. Not the defender to get out of the screeners way while he sets the perfect screen. It's beyond unfair to the defender.

If you don't make contact with the defender the refs never call it, every time cats try to pressure the ball full court you see the big run right in front of him nobody calls a moving screen.

its pretty consistent, they never call it unless you make contact without your feet set.

That's the point of this conversation, the refs never calling it. If the big gets to the spot first I have no problem with it. The armed escort service moving pick is the worst though. If you're bringing the ball up the court and you can't get past your man without an armed escort running interference in front of you all the way into the other half then you probably shouldn't be an NBA point guard.

 
It's a moving screen... but they never blow the whistle if there isn't a collision. What are y'all crying about? On a fast break players always used lead players as "lead blockers" and that's not called either. If they started calling moving screens like that it would slow down the game so bad

See above. This isn't the NFL. The hell you need a "lead blocker" for? Equally as annoying as the moving screens in the half court set. How would it slow the game down? If anything it would make honest men out of some crappy guards.

 

If you're impeding the defender? Hell yes!? Why not let him walk CP3 all the way to the rim while CP3 is making up his mind then? Lol

That doesn't work because then Blake also brings the guy defending him right to the rim, so it would basically defeat the purpose of the screen. The reason that CP got an open lay up is because Blake stayed out of the paint and Asik stayed with him instead of protecting the rim.

Asik needing to protect the rim is after the fact. We're only discussing what occurred during the screen. They tell you to fight through a screen or get over but how exactly are you supposed to do that if the screener is walking you backwards? If CP3 pulls up for a 3 Lin is out of position to contest through no fault of his own. Everything that happened after the screen was on Lin/Asik though. Just using this incident as an example of bad screening officiating, not saying that it led to CP3 scoring.

 

[drewsone]

meh been done before

41/50

It's definitely a "meh" dunk. Just thought how it was cool they edited, or cgi'd or whatever they did him in the dunk contest.

 

[shoeking2101]

Trying to set a screen while your pg is constantly moving and you dont know where hes going is a moving screen?

Yes. That's the PG's fault for not letting the screen get set, but that is a moving screen.

 

[noblekane]

Tonight monta is going to let the lakers.........................................have it all

 

[antidope]

Where is @Bigsupa to make sense of all this. He is an NCAA Ref he can settle this debate.

 

[ill steelo]

 

[friscostylez]

it is technically a moving screen and I am pretty sure the refs know that but they will not call it unless there is contact. Pretty much if Jeremy Lin just ran into Blake on his own, it would have been called in his favor.

 

[Coupé It]

So how many Laker fans turned into Clipper fans overnight? Have to be a could if y'all on here. Cause Dwight got booed like he playing the Lakers last night lol.

Pitiful :x

 

[osh kosh bosh]

That's the point of this conversation, the refs never calling it. If the big gets to the spot first I have no problem with it. The armed escort service moving pick is the worst though. If you're bringing the ball up the court and you can't get past your man without an armed escort running interference in front of you all the way into the other half then you probably shouldn't be an NBA point guard.



See above. This isn't the NFL. The hell you need a "lead blocker" for? Equally as annoying as the moving screens in the half court set. How would it slow the game down? If anything it would make honest men out of some crappy guards.


Asik needing to protect the rim is after the fact. We're only discussing what occurred during the screen. They tell you to fight through a screen or get over but how exactly are you supposed to do that if the screener is walking you backwards? If CP3 pulls up for a 3 Lin is out of position to contest through no fault of his own. Everything that happened after the screen was on Lin/Asik though. Just using this incident as an example of bad screening officiating, not saying that it led to CP3 scoring.

My point is based on the consistency it is clearly a league mandated interpretation of the rule.

Think about it for a second what would constitute a screen If you don't have the strict definition of contact?

Your big man is moving around trying to establish position, you pass the ball to another guard and cut through to the corner when you cut through the big is in the way of the defender who is trying to chase your though the paint has to go around the big who is moving trying to establish deep post position.

Is that a screen?

Does the big trying to post up have to stay completely still?

No.

You have no screen until contact is made, and thus no moving screen can be called. It would be dumb to call it any other way. like half the plays in the nba involve this type of action non conctact screens.

 

[antidope]

Unfortunately this is nothing new.

On the 27th of September at media day, James Harden announced that he and the coaching staff were "all on the same page" about him guarding the oppositions best wing player. Upon reading a discussion about this on an NBA forum, I came across comments such as 'and the league's best players give a resounding cheer,' and people talking about how 'Harden will never be good enough to guard the best wing players in the league.' Others would reference the 2012 WCF, when Harden got lit up by Manu to the tune of 18.5 points per game in 30 minutes on 50/42/93 shooting.

So with all this talk about Harden's defensive woes, and how that's what is really holding him back from being right up in the MVP discussion, I decided to head over to synergy sports and check out some film, paired with stats, of Harden defending spot ups, isolations, and pick and rolls, to really put the pieces together and figure out why he's gained a reputation as such a bad defensive player.

Defending the Pick and Roll

Being a guard, Harden is often faced with defending the ball handler in the pick and roll. In fact, guarding the pick and roll ball handler accounted for 22.4% of his defensive possessions, and he wasn't too bad at it, giving up 0.8 points per possession, ranking him at 129th in the league at defending this play. The Rockets never really developed a team philosophy at defending the pick and roll, it was always just 'get through and recover, and Omer will be there to help at the ring. This led to numerous pull up jump shots, from Harden not showing respect to the shooter (more on this later) and either being nonchalant about going over the screen (as shown below with defending Russell Westbrook) or just waltzing under it altogether.

The Rockets not having a team philosophy on the PnR would really show at times, such as on this Tyreke Evans/DeMarcus Cousins pick and roll. What are Asik and Harden trying to do here? Trap it? It's the only possible explanation for trying to fight through a screen for the poor-shooting Tyreke Evans.

And here's one more instance of Harden trying to fight over the top of a screen, being way too slow, and Jackson hits a nice floater over Asik.

Defending Isolation

Harden was actually ranked pretty highly in defending isolation (0.72ppp, 73rd in the league), but I think that was merely an instance of synergy defensive stats being flawed. Harden gets blown by a lot on D, but he has one of the league's best defensive centres in Omer Asik to cover up for his mistakes. This missed Durant layup is a prime example of what I'm talking about- Durant easily gets by Harden along the baseline, but Asik shows us what a great defensive presence he is by meeting him at the ring to contest the shot. However, this counts as Harden defending an isolation, resulting in a miss, when really it was just bad defence on his part.

Harden also doesn't show much respect to shooters, and gives guys a lot of room on the perimeter. Take a look at him guarding Andre Iguodala here, he's practically begging him to shoot the long 3.

Iguodala is not exactly an elite shooter, so you can't really blame Harden for stepping off, but if you give guys that much room on the perimeter, it gives them room to get a full head of steam going to the basket, something Rondo has become really good at over many instances of defences having no respect for his jumper. However once again, they'd be met by Asik at the ring (and now Dwight), so it's not really going to be an issue towards Harden's isolation defence ranking.

And taking a look at one more instance of Harden getting credited for a bad defensive sequence, here he is getting blown by Kevin Martin, but who then is met at the ring by Asik who knocks the shot away.

Obviously getting beaten to the baseline isn't as bad as being beaten to the middle, but if Harden is really going to be guarding the oppositions best wing players, getting blown by this frequently on D is just inexcusable.

Defending Spot Ups

The last category that Harden defends at a high volume is the spot-up, and it is by far the one he defends the most, 38.5% of the time, which is unfortunate because he is absolutely horrific at it- he gives up 1.07ppp and is ranked 296th in the league. Not only this, but his opponents shoot 40.4% from the three-point line with him defending. This stat in particular is extraordinary, because James is so long, quick, and athletic, and usually players like that are great at closing out around the three-point line.

So how can he be so bad? It's simple- he's a horrible defender off the ball. He is often caught well out of position trying to help, losing his man on cuts, and helping one pass away. What do I mean by that exactly? Let's take a look.

Here's an example of Harden helping one pass away- we see Durant drive, and Harden is guarding Fisher near the corner. When Durant beats his man off the dribble, Harden comes over to help, but he doesn't really do anything, instead all he's done is given Fisher way too much room and he hits the 3.

What Harden should do, is fake the help- that is, jab a step in Durant's way and quickly recover to Fisher. Even if Durant still gets by, Asik is right there to help out at the ring.

Here we see Durant get a flare screen from Perkins, who was being guarded by Delfino. Harden doesn't even attempt to fight through the screen, so hopefully that means he called out a switch, which is what it looks like, as Delfino tries to contest the shot. If that's the case then it's a good play by Harden.

Harden is guilty of ball-watching far too often, standing in no mans land which puts him well out of position to recover and close out on his man. On this play, he doesn't even need to be out of position. But he is, and Durant makes the simple swing pass to get Thabo the wide open look.

And here is the EXACT SAME THING in the next game of the series. Compare the two, he makes the exact same mistake in the next game. And it wasn't just these two times, this happened over and over again.

Still not convinced? Here it is once more, earlier in the series, but on this one, Perkins sees him out of position (probably the only play Perkins contributed to on the offensive end for the whole game), and sets a back-screen for Sefelosha to get him even more room, and he has all the time in the world to get set and take the three.

Okay, so Harden helps one pass away and gets out of position a lot. That's not too bad, right? Heaps of players do that. Well, check out this sequence. Once again, Harden is guarding Thabo, and he's on the left wing. Just notice where they both are at the start of the play. Thabo cuts along the baseline to make the spacing a bit better, and Harden is busy staring at the ball and uselessly swiping at Durant. In the time it takes Durant to swing the ball, then the ball to get thrown cross court to Sefelosha in the corner, Harden still isn't able to get him in time, and he gifts Thabo another wide open shot.

Go on, watch it again- just stare at Harden for the whole play. He has absolutely no idea where his man is. This is perhaps the worst defensive sequence by any 'star player' that I have ever seen.

The obvious conclusion

James Harden is not a good defender, he deserves the reputation. But fortunately for him, helping one pass away, being out of position, losing his man, those are all things that can be fixed without hard physical work. That's just about reviewing film and working on team defensive philosophies at practice. As for guarding isolations and not being beat off the dribble, if he's improved like he said he has, then maybe we could see a new and improved defensive player in the coming season. He has the ideal body for a great on-ball defender, he just needs the effort. Not that it's going to matter too much with Dwight Howard standing at the ring behind him this year.

 

[mgrand15]

Harden's defense is very Kobe-like. No damns given off the ball

 

[coldcity]

@ those gifs

dambs def left in the locker room

 

[coldcity]

dbl

 

[ravagebx]

 

That's the point of this conversation, the refs never calling it. If the big gets to the spot first I have no problem with it. The armed escort service moving pick is the worst though. If you're bringing the ball up the court and you can't get past your man without an armed escort running interference in front of you all the way into the other half then you probably shouldn't be an NBA point guard.



See above. This isn't the NFL. The hell you need a "lead blocker" for? Equally as annoying as the moving screens in the half court set. How would it slow the game down? If anything it would make honest men out of some crappy guards.


Asik needing to protect the rim is after the fact. We're only discussing what occurred during the screen. They tell you to fight through a screen or get over but how exactly are you supposed to do that if the screener is walking you backwards? If CP3 pulls up for a 3 Lin is out of position to contest through no fault of his own. Everything that happened after the screen was on Lin/Asik though. Just using this incident as an example of bad screening officiating, not saying that it led to CP3 scoring.

My point is based on the consistency it is clearly a league mandated interpretation of the rule.

Think about it for a second what would constitute a screen If you don't have the strict definition of contact?

Your big man is moving around trying to establish position, you pass the ball to another guard and cut through to the corner when you cut through the big is in the way of the defender who is trying to chase your though the paint has to go around the big who is moving trying to establish deep post position.

Is that a screen?

Does the big trying to post up have to stay completely still?

No.

You have no screen until contact is made, and thus no moving screen can be called. It would be dumb to call it any other way. like half the plays in the nba involve this type of action non conctact screens.

I have no doubt its league mandated. I just think its garbage and provides an unfair advantage to the offense. Its no wonder guards have been running wild in the league for some time now. From handchecking to illegal screens they've made it a priority to give guards a leg up.

As for your scenario, we're talking about PURPOSEFULLY impeding defenders. Not happenstance on the court. Everyone has freedom of movement on the court. But when you purposefully track an opposing player and continually move in a direction so as to impede his progress, I think it should be called a moving screen. Contact or no.

Refs are quite capable of telling the difference.

 

[addict4sneakers]

I watch harden to see him euro step through traffic, not play lock down defense.

Play on, player.

 

[larrydavid]

Harden has a severe case of that Rec. Ball Swagger On D...

Ya'll Know...

That N_ that be letting his dude blow by him for the lay-up but as soon as the ball falls through the net he's clapping his hands together talkin' bout "Ball!"

 

[JD617]

At 0:45 he has no idea where Redick is. "Oh ****!"

 

[certifiedflyboi23]

He trying to preserve energy for the offensive end. Remember last year it was pretty much only him scoring.

 

[ravagebx]

Harden has a severe case of that Rec. Ball Swagger On D...

Ya'll Know...

That N_ that be letting his dude blow by him for the lay-up but as soon as the ball falls through the net he's clapping his hands together talkin' bout "Ball!"

Lol accurate.

 

[black migo]

Harden will pick up his defensive intensity once playoffs come but right now he makes steph look like artest in indiana

 

[datznasty]

And yes to beat a dead horse but since we're talking about how terrible of a defender Harden is, would any other coach not named Scott Brooks have him defend LeBron in a playoff series for long stretches? Like on purpose, for serious?

 

[black migo]

Maybe he thought harden was strong & quick enough to do the job

 

[T0INE]

Found something that might finally settle the long debated LeBron vs. MJ vs. Kobe arguments.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

[do work son]

i could have told you harden was a bad defender

he just doesn't even make the effort. that can be fixed though.