NFL Quarterbacks Discussion thread: 2013 Edition

[Chester McFloppy]

Ah. Well I put TBs 07 and PMs 04 on the same level (along with Marino's 84). All ridiculous

I wouldn't put those on the same level as 84.

Everyone was throwin for 4K and 30+ TD's the last few years.

84 saw Dan go 5,084 and 48 TD's. Rating of 108.

Next closest in TD's was Krieg, with 32. No other QB had more than 28. Lomax and Simms the only other 2 to have 4K yards, Simms just barely at 4,000. Joe the only to have a rating over 100, the next QB was at 93.


Peyton was great in 04 at 121 rating, 49 TD and 4500 yards. 3 others had rating over 100. (plus a 98 and a 97) Culpepper had 39 TD's the same year, plus two others with 30+. 5 guys had 4K yards, two of those more than Manning did.

07, same. Brady with 117 rating, 50 TD and 4800. Two others with 100 ratings, another 98 and 97. 3 others with 30+ TD's. 6 others threw for 4K plus a 3966.


84 came in an era where no one was throwing the ball. Peyton and Tom both had theirs while everyone in the league was doin, they were just better of course.

Dan plays in 2004-07 and 6,000 with 55+ TD's would be his norm. No one can hit him, or jam his receivers? Forget it, you'd have no shot.

ALL OF THIS.

 

[fraij da 5 11]

$#!+ man Matt Schaub threw for 4700 and change a few years ago...

 

[fraij da 5 11]

Schaub though.

 

[dland24]

4 MVPs > 2 MVPs

9x All Pro > 3x All Pro

 

[CP1708]

4 MVPs > 2 MVPs
9x All Pro > 3x All Pro

You won't win this game, you shouldn't try to play it.

 

[100027]

You must not have heard of or seen Joe Montana champ............and if not him then John Elway, and if not him then Dan Marino. 

I said he's in the conversation.  I think it's more than fair to put him over Elway or Marino.

 

[dland24]

4 MVPs > 2 MVPs
9x All Pro > 3x All Pro

You won't win this game, you shouldn't try to play it.

No rebuttal to that huh?  Shocker.  When one has double amount the MVPs and TRIPLE the amount of All Pros, there really is no comeback to be made.

 

[DeadsetAce]

You must not have heard of or seen Joe Montana champ............and if not him then John Elway, and if not him then Dan Marino. 

I said he's in the conversation.  I think it's more than fair to put him over Elway or Marino.

these guys get tight whenever any QB (especially brady) is mentioned without a footnote referencing joe cool as the GOAT

 

[CP1708]

4 MVPs > 2 MVPs

9x All Pro > 3x All Pro

You won't win this game, you shouldn't try to play it.

No rebuttal to that huh?  Shocker.  When one has double amount the MVPs and TRIPLE the amount of All Pros, there really is no comeback to be made.

Dland, I've made more posts on the subject than I care to admit. DoubleJ's used one of my old quotes last year I think to open a QB thread. The one about Peyton being born into QB, college on thru, vs how Brady came up, etc.

You don't want to play this game. You, will, not, win. Please stop counting MVP's. It's embarrassing.

 

[dland24]

Counting MVPs is embarrassing?  This isnt the NBA we are talking about here.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Dland, I've made more posts on the subject than I care to admit. DoubleJ's used one of my old quotes last year I think to open a QB thread. The one about Peyton being born into QB, college on thru, vs how Brady came up, etc.

You don't want to play this game. You, will, not, win. Please stop counting MVP's. It's embarrassing.

CP, that was me. and just to refresh everyone's memory:

You rang?


CP1708 wrote:
[rule]
Deuce, come on man, just stop already. Peyton Manning was the son of a QB, went to Tennessee, played 4 years in the same system, could never win the big game (sound familiar?) then the very season he leaves for the NFL, Tennessee goes on to win the national championship.

He joins the Colts with young Marvin Harrison already there, Marvin played pretty good his rookie year also, and had a decent college career, he was no bum off the streets.

They add Edge James the next year giving Peyton a top tier running back for the next 7-8 years. After that they add Reggie Wayne so that Marvin can no longer be doubled. Add to that a WR in a TE possition in Dallas Clark. All of this, with a solid offensive line, and the same offensive coordinator his ENTIRE career. Alex Smith has had like 5 in 5 years has he not?

Oh by the way, Peyton had a very solid Mike Vanderjact (best FG% while at Indy) until that dude melted down in Dallas.


He could never win the big game, until the season in which the Colts finally had a healthy Freeny, Mathis, Bathea and Bob Sanders all at the same time. That year? Manning was simply "brilliant" with his 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions in 4 games. With QB ratings of 71.9, 39.6, 79.1, and 81.8. Hardly GOAT status right there.



Meanwhile, Brady is a 6th round pick, comes in mid season for an injured Drew Bledsoe (the franchise player at the time) and does so well, that when Drew is healthy, he loses his job. Tom is the new QB for the Patriots, not for his arm, but for his brain. He plays the way Bill wants, no mistakes, no forced passes, do what you can to move the offense. An offense that had Troy Smith as it's best WR. Or Givens. Or Branch. Bethel Johnson maybe? Any elite Tight Ends that were better then Dallas Clark you can think of? Me either. How bout elite running backs to take the pressure off Tom? Can't name one of those either? Hmmmm. But he did have a great Defense. And a great coach. And they did what they had to do to win the game. They were not going to be the greatest show on Turf, because they did not have the personnel for that. But 7 years later, when they had Randy Moss and Wes Welker, that offense moved along did it not? They were simply one miracle play away from Tom throwing the winning TD pass to Moss. Peyton's BROTHER, was the one that threw that miracle toss. Even he has already matched his big brother in terms of Super Bowl success. But let me back track, Brady (who, as you stated, rode the coattails of Adam Vinateri to super bowl greatness, produced games such as 86.2, 100.5, and 110.2 in 3 super bowls, all better then Mannings games in his super season. Brady in those 3 bowls? 6 TD's, 1 INT. As you said, he couldn't have done it without Adam.


BTW, how did Adam do in that Super Bowl that Peyton won? Didn't he kick 3 field goals i that game? And Manning did what, throw one touchdown pass himself correct? You don't find that ironic?


So yes, both Peyton and Tom are great, but to dismiss what Tom has done to make Peyton look so superior is ridiculous and beyond lame. Give Brady all those weapons and a full decade to play with them, and see what Tom coulda done numbers wise. Yes, it's impressive to see Peyton call his own plays and all that, you can do that when you have the same offense for 10 years with no coaching movement or players in and out of the lineup. That's what happens. The bottom line is, Tom was a miracle play from having 4 rings, an undefeated season, the best winning percentage after 100 games Ever, and MVP, over 200 TD's, with fewer then 100 ints, and you're in here telling me he owes all of it to a kicker that got your boy his lone ring just the same. Come on.

 

[deuce king]

You must not have heard of or seen Joe Montana champ............and if not him then John Elway, and if not him then Dan Marino. 

I said he's in the conversation.  I think it's more than fair to put him over Elway or Marino.

If he is in the conversation (key word IF), then he should more so be at the very tail end of the conversation............and that's with me being very generous.  Meaning there's Mount Rushmore, then there's the guys that just aren't cut, weren't made to be etched out in stone.  

these guys get tight whenever any QB (especially brady) is mentioned without a footnote referencing joe cool as the GOAT

These guys huh

.  I hear ya champ.  That's funny seeing how whenever anyone says anything remotely disparaging about Brady, YOU and a few others are quick on the scene to battle.

The bottom line is, Tom was a miracle play from having 4 rings, an undefeated season, the best winning percentage after 100 games Ever, and MVP, over 200 TD's, with fewer then 100 ints, and you're in here telling me he owes all of it to a kicker that got your boy his lone ring just the same.

Just go to back and revisit history with this old statement above CP1708, it's funny you wanna talk about Tom being one miracle play away form 4 rings, an undefeated season......yadda yadda yadda, but I'm almost sure you DON'T want to acknowledge that he had a miracle play go his way or in his favor to even begin his so called GOAT career with that tuck rule game against Oakland years prior.  If you ever watched The Wire champ, you already know where I'm going with this one.........."You want it one way.........but it's the OTHER way" 

 

[DeadsetAce]

the difference is i don't try and discredit what montana has done. i simply try and erase the slander against my dude

 

[deuce king]

the difference is i don't try and discredit what montana has done. i simply try and erase the slander against my dude

Just to clarify from my standpoint, there is no slander directed to or about Brady.  I said this before and I'll say it again to you and others, Brady is a great QB, no doubt about it from my viewpoint.  I just don't have Brady as either the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd best QB of all-time.  That's just me though. 

 

[Clyde Frog]

I look at Brady and Manning like I do with the current state of comparing Jordan and Lebron. Manning is probably more talented but Brady has the intangibles like the clutch factor and the killer instinct. Because of that he's got the achievements and the legacy required to separate you from the elite category to the great category. Its what makes you worthy enough to be in the GOAT discussion. Not to mention Brady has an elite skill set as well. Except in Manning's case its a little too late. He choked on too many opportunities whereas Brady rose to the occasion and took advantage of them more often than not. Even at Mannings expense on multiple occasions. You only have one chance, one career to take advantage of the opportunities given. Brady did Manning didnt. Thats just the way it is.

The only reason this is an argument is because one plays for the Patriots, dresses well, dates a model, cried once at the idea of possibly being a car salesman if he werent drafted, and has long hair sometimes while the other was surprisingly funny on Saturday Night Live 7 years ago. All of which are completely unrelated to football.

Now Brady or Montana, idk cause i didnt get to see Montania play.

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Tom Brady has earned my respect by making the Houston Texans his personal toilet. He continues to climb up my list with every victory over that worthless franchise, and he may just unseat John Elway with another clean sweep this year.

Keep it up, #12. We're counting on you.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Terrible Analogy in the manning / Brady vs Jordan / Lebron.

Manning and Brady have played against each other in the same conference playing the same teams in route to the same goal.

It isn't the same thing.

You're right but that doesnt change anything I said. Its only more reason to believe Brady>Manning because we had the luxury of seeing them play during the same time. Gives us much better judgement than having those who would beat who hypothetical arguments about 2 guys from separate eras.

 

[deuce king]

Tom Brady has earned my respect by making the Houston Texans his personal toilet.

Just like that, this discussion/debate gets brought back full circle. 

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Houston_Texans_Super_Bowl.gif

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Huh, wonder why that image isn't working.

 

[CP1708]

Just go to back and revisit history with this old statement above CP1708, it's funny you wanna talk about Tom being one miracle play away form 4 rings, an undefeated season......yadda yadda yadda, but I'm almost sure you DON'T want to acknowledge that he had a miracle play go his way or in his favor to even begin his so called GOAT career with that tuck rule game against Oakland years prior. If you ever watched The Wire champ, you already know where I'm going with this one.........."You want it one way.........but it's the OTHER way"

Yeah, see you think you have me pegged, only you don't. I'm fine if you want to say Brady was one play away from one less SB. Bothers me none.

The guy has been to 5 Super Bowls. Want to reduce it by 1? Go right ahead.

Still more SB wins than Peyton.
Still more appearances than Peyton.
Still a lesser roster of weapons than Peyton
Still more head to head wins vs Peyton
Still more playoff wins than Peyton
Still a better win % than Peyton


So by all means. If it means that much to you, pull the tuck rule game off his resume, cool by me.

I mean, the Giants won like 3 plays after the Tyree catch. The Raiders had an entire series still to finish the game, couldn't do it. Went to OT, still couldn't finish the game. But hey, one play. Almost the exact same scenario, but not close.

 

[dmxfury]

To me if you are the Montana over Marino guy, I would think you'd be a Brady over Peyton guy...and vice versa.

 

[CP1708]

To me if you are the Montana over Marino guy, I would think you'd be a Brady over Peyton guy...and vice versa.

Oh well ****, that's interesting.

Fair point.


I like that I back Marino and Brady, because I see each of them with the lesser casts. Big difference is of course, Dan can't talk to anybody when it comes to wins that matter. Joe, John, Tom, and Peyton, even Brett, all leave Dan behind.

Sort of bugs me that Shula gets the praise that he does, when he RUINED a decade of draft picks around Dan. RUINED.

Shula was great, sure, but he wasted 14 or so years of the greatest player he ever had. Flat out wasted.

 

[dland24]

Like you CP, I really don't want to get into an in-depth argument.  Basically what it really comes down to, is what you value more when you are trying to determine if player A is better than player B.  Do you value personal stats, personal awards and accolades, or do you value team success. 

When discussing individual players, I value individual stats, awards and accolades over team success.  You value team success.  You aren't wrong.  Nor am I.  Just a difference of opinion.

 

[dland24]

dbl post