One Question: Is Ray Allen a HOF'er?

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by NooEra

Nice contribution.

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Embarrassing myself? We both know the All-Defensive Teams are an annual joke. Not sure why you're putting so much emphasis on those and the All-NBA teams, in which politics also play a role. Payton's defense had started to slip by that point. He wasn't quite the game-changing perimeter defender that he was earlier in his career.

I don't understand why we're acting like it's a landslide here...

I think a case can be made for Ray. If you disagree, that's fine, but let's stop acting like what I said was that outlandish.

Also, I'm noticing that someone's bricklaying caused him to fall outside the top 20 that year in a few notable categories...

And for the people who dismiss individual numbers when they come on bad teams, Ray's Bucks won 52 games that year compared to 51 for Kidd's Suns and 44 for Gary's Sonics.

Thing is Jason Kidd was also a top 3 perimeter defender in the league back then though

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by NooEra

Nice contribution.

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Embarrassing myself? We both know the All-Defensive Teams are an annual joke. Not sure why you're putting so much emphasis on those and the All-NBA teams, in which politics also play a role. Payton's defense had started to slip by that point. He wasn't quite the game-changing perimeter defender that he was earlier in his career.

I don't understand why we're acting like it's a landslide here...

I think a case can be made for Ray. If you disagree, that's fine, but let's stop acting like what I said was that outlandish.

Also, I'm noticing that someone's bricklaying caused him to fall outside the top 20 that year in a few notable categories...

And for the people who dismiss individual numbers when they come on bad teams, Ray's Bucks won 52 games that year compared to 51 for Kidd's Suns and 44 for Gary's Sonics.

Thing is Jason Kidd was also a top 3 perimeter defender in the league back then though

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Shaq
Duncan
Iverson
McGrady
Webber
Garnett
Kobe
Carter
Malone
Kidd
Payton

were all better than Ray Allen in 00-01. You really have no case against these.

Debatable:

Nowitzki
Sheed
Marbury
Francis
Stackhouse
McDyess

You have a better case for saying that Ray was a top 10 player when he was with the Sonics, which he wasn't then either.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Shaq
Duncan
Iverson
McGrady
Webber
Garnett
Kobe
Carter
Malone
Kidd
Payton

were all better than Ray Allen in 00-01. You really have no case against these.

Debatable:

Nowitzki
Sheed
Marbury
Francis
Stackhouse
McDyess

You have a better case for saying that Ray was a top 10 player when he was with the Sonics, which he wasn't then either.

 

[CP1708]

Hmmmm very interesting argument from both Juan and Xtap, I never really thought of it in terms of top 10 in a single season or what have you. 

What if, for instance, you have a TMac who was a top 5 guy for 4-5 years, vs a Ray Allen top....say 15-20 for let's give him 15 years.  The TMac 4-5 year stretch would deserve to get in more then the 15 years of Ray Allen? 

I dunno.  I look at it like you have 2 ways to get into the hall, dominant elite for a stretch of 7-8-9 years, or 15+ of solid solid play.  Jaun's Lamar Odom mention was a good one, and that would be VERY difficult, because he could put up a large amount of long term numbers for his career, while never even making an all star game. 

  So I would struggle with how to determine or explain one way or the other for those type players. 

For my vote, I would say Ray deserves to be in the hall more so then Tracy does.  Just my opinion,maybe if I crunched the numbers I would feel different, but gut feeling, I take Ray.

 

[CP1708]

Hmmmm very interesting argument from both Juan and Xtap, I never really thought of it in terms of top 10 in a single season or what have you. 

What if, for instance, you have a TMac who was a top 5 guy for 4-5 years, vs a Ray Allen top....say 15-20 for let's give him 15 years.  The TMac 4-5 year stretch would deserve to get in more then the 15 years of Ray Allen? 

I dunno.  I look at it like you have 2 ways to get into the hall, dominant elite for a stretch of 7-8-9 years, or 15+ of solid solid play.  Jaun's Lamar Odom mention was a good one, and that would be VERY difficult, because he could put up a large amount of long term numbers for his career, while never even making an all star game. 

  So I would struggle with how to determine or explain one way or the other for those type players. 

For my vote, I would say Ray deserves to be in the hall more so then Tracy does.  Just my opinion,maybe if I crunched the numbers I would feel different, but gut feeling, I take Ray.

 

[dmbrhs]

This thread really needs to be locked. They're both (Reggie and Ray) going into the hall, whether you like it or not. There's no argument you can present that will prove they WON'T be inducted. You can have a nice little circle jerk giving reasons why you think they shouldn't, but it doesn't mean anything. They're going in. Deal with it.

 

[dmbrhs]

This thread really needs to be locked. They're both (Reggie and Ray) going into the hall, whether you like it or not. There's no argument you can present that will prove they WON'T be inducted. You can have a nice little circle jerk giving reasons why you think they shouldn't, but it doesn't mean anything. They're going in. Deal with it.

 

[bossplaya0625]

Originally Posted by venom lyrix

Originally Posted by JumpmanFromDaBay

This shouldn't even be a question

what he said.

 

[bossplaya0625]

Originally Posted by venom lyrix

Originally Posted by JumpmanFromDaBay

This shouldn't even be a question

what he said.

 

[mj all day45]

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

This thread really needs to be locked. They're both (Reggie and Ray) going into the hall, whether you like it or not. There's no argument you can present that will prove they WON'T be inducted. You can have a nice little circle jerk giving reasons why you think they shouldn't, but it doesn't mean anything. They're going in. Deal with it.

to Reggie

to Ray (sorry still hate him from U-Conn...denied my man Bubba Chuck his NCAA Title

)

 

[mj all day45]

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

This thread really needs to be locked. They're both (Reggie and Ray) going into the hall, whether you like it or not. There's no argument you can present that will prove they WON'T be inducted. You can have a nice little circle jerk giving reasons why you think they shouldn't, but it doesn't mean anything. They're going in. Deal with it.

to Reggie

to Ray (sorry still hate him from U-Conn...denied my man Bubba Chuck his NCAA Title

)