Question For Christians

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I don't see any contradiction or anything immoral in what you just posted. Feel free to elaborate and show me 1 single contradiction (IE: 2 verses contradicting each other) not a copy/pasted list of verses from some website trying to throw dirt.

Islam is a complete way of life... even war. Obviously there are verses (in proper context) discussing this, as well as the limits. (not harming civilians, only in self defense etc)

Where is the contradiction ?

You ignore contrary evidence/arguments, and post your own lame, tired arguments (as if they are new... implying that I'm running away from this thread because you just dropped some new knowledge I can't respond to

) people have been using to attack Islam for centuries.

Seriously, PM me when you got something better. I don't have time to waste. This is what happens when you debate a topic with someone has no knowledge of it (outside of some copy/pasted verses w/o historical or linguistic context from google) .....
EDIT: to the dude above (another example of horrendous reading comprehension)... again you show your profound lack of knowledge. Christians do not believe the bible is directly from God, but rather a compilation written by man... and I already posted the link to the (some) of the science found in the Qur'an.... 

I already addressed why the bible is different (FIRST OF ALL WHAT BIBLE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH ONE ?

)...the bible is a bunch of different books/versions, riddled with contradiction.. unlike the Qur'an.

I'm not going to PM you, I want you to confront the verses I posted up there-They are infallible so do you believe ANY of that?


I didn't post any contradictions, I am accepting the fact that Islam has no contradictions just for the sake of my arguments-Now since Islam is infallible YOU MUST abide by everything said in the Koran right?

So take a look at the verses I posted, do you agree?

 

[tkthafm]

Yes, all my links contained were information on hygiene...

Now I'm the one contradicting myself...but I saw this dumb post and had to respond. Yes the verses are infallible, and obviously, as all 1.3+ billion Muslims should, I believe every word in the Qur'an. 
Where is the contradiction ? Proof it was written by man/groups ? 

Anyway, I'm out. Again, hit me via PM if you come up with a real argument.

See the post below.. dude really doesn't know how to read ... here come the copy/pasted verses without any context  

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Yes, all my links contained were information on hygiene...

Now I'm the one contradicting myself...but I saw this dumb post and had to respond. Yes the verses are infallible, and obviously, as all 1.3+ billion Muslims should, I believe every word in the Qur'an. 
Where is the contradiction ? Proof it was written by man/groups ? 

Anyway, I'm out. Again, hit me via PM if you come up with a real argument.

again this isn't about contradiction, I'm playing devils advocate "pun intended" and believing the Koran is perfect now do me a favor and tell me if you believe every verse I posted

 

[antonlavey]

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:1

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 8

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:7

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by So Nyuh Shi Dae

Originally Posted by tkthafm

This goes to the heart of the issue though. If my "proof" (proof in quotes because the element of faith is still involved) is that no human could have possible made the Qur'an (which is perfect, free from all error, contains many scientific facts not known at the time etc) and you claim the book was written by many.. changed/edited... etc (without any proof)....

the discussion goes nowhere (like most religion threads on NT discussions anywhere).

You refuse to believe that a human could have written the Qur'an, so you call that proof? Christians make the same claims about the Bible. I realize that you deny their claims, but it's a matter of you sitting here saying, "I'm right and they are wrong because I say so but I have no proof to support my assertions." Also, please share with me the scientific facts that the Qur'an supposedly predicted. 

he posted a link

It's pedestrian sh^^ like, "Have good dental hygiene or you teeth will go bad"

He is basing Islam's validity on some of the technological and scientific advancements people made back in the day-Christianity and other religions made some equally impressive technological and scientific advancements-Egyptian mythology aka my favorite religious tradition made some predictions and built some structures that puts Islam to shame, does that make Egyptian mythology more valid?


I'm still waiting for dude to comment on the scriptures I posted, now it's been established that the koran is infallible

Yeah, it's pretty funny how several people in this topic have made the claim that Islam contains something that no other religion has when that's blatantly not true. Are people really this oblivious?

 

[antonlavey]

Is the Quran Hate Propaganda?

What the Holiest Book of Islam Really says about Non-Muslims


Introduction
Why the Violence?  Why the Indifference?

On September 25, 2002, a group of armed Muslims in Karachi, Pakistan entered the office of a Christian charity, tied seven workers to chairs and then brutally murdered them.  According to Muslim witnesses, the Islamists "showed no haste. They took a good 15 minutes in segregating the Christians and making sure that each one of their targets received the most horrific death."

The killing of non-Muslim humanitarian workers by devout followers of Islam occurs quite often.  The executions are not usually celebrated by Muslims, but there is rarely if any outrage expressed over slaughter in the name of Islam by a community renowned for its peevishness.

While rumors of a Quran desecration or a Muhammad cartoon bring out deadly protests, riots, arson and effigy-burnings, the mass murder of non-Muslims generally evokes yawns. In the six years following 9/11 more than 10,000 acts of deadly Islamic terrorism were perpetrated, yet all of them together fail to provoke the sort of outrage on the part of most Muslims that the mere mention of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo inspires.

This critical absence of moral perspective puzzles many Westerners, particularly those trying to reconcile this reality with the politically-correct assumption that Islam is like other religion.  The Judeo-Christian tradition preaches universal love and unselfishness, so it is expected that the more devout Muslims would be the most peaceful and least dangerous... provided that Islam is based on the same principles.

But beneath the rosy assurances from Muslim apologists that Islam is about peace and tolerance lies a much darker reality that better explains the violence and deeply-rooted indifference.  Quite simply, the Quran teaches supremacy, hate and hostility.

Consider the elements that define hate speech:

• Drawing a distinction between one’s own identity group and those outside it

• Moral comparison based on this distinction

• Devaluation or dehumanization of other groups and the personal superiority of one's own

• The advocating of different standards of treatment based on identity group membership

• A call to violence against members of other groups

Sadly, and despite the best intentions of many decent people who are Muslim, the Quran qualifies as hate speech on each count.

The holiest book of Islam (61% of which is about non-Muslims) draws the sharpest of distinctions between Muslims (the best of people, 3:110) and non-believers (the worst of creatures, 98:6).  Praise is lavished on the former while the latter is condemned with scorching generalization.  Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah's hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture.  Naturally, the harsh treatment of non-believers by Muslims is encouraged as well.

So, what does the Quran, believed by Muslims to be the literal and eternal word of Allah, really say about non-Muslims?

The Quran Distinguishes Muslims from Non-Muslims
and Establishes a Hierarchy of Relative Worth

The Quran makes it clear that Islam is not about universal brotherhood, but about the brotherhood of believers:

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)


Not all men are equal under Islam.  Slaves and the handicapped are not equal to healthy free men, for example (16:75-76).  The Quran introduces the “Law of Equality,

 

[teamjordan79]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Yes, all my links contained were information on hygiene...

Now I'm the one contradicting myself...but I saw this dumb post and had to respond. Yes the verses are infallible, and obviously, as all 1.3+ billion Muslims should, I believe every word in the Qur'an. 
Where is the contradiction ? Proof it was written by man/groups ? 

Anyway, I'm out. Again, hit me via PM if you come up with a real argument.

not to take anything away from islam.......but i read this recently ......here is just an excerpt from a scholarly source: 

"Everything to the contrary notwithstanding, Mohammed is not responsible for the
contradictions and inconsistencies in the Koran, for the volume was not compiled and did
not assume its present form until over twenty years after his death. In its present state the
Koran is, for the major part, a jumble of hearsay through which occasionally shines forth
an example of true inspiration. From what is known of the man Mohammed, it is reasonable
to suppose that these nobler and finer portions represent the actual doctrines of the
Prophet; the remainder are obvious interpolations, some arising from misunderstanding
and others direct forgeries calculated to satisfy the temporal ambitions of conquering Islam.

On this subject, Godfrey Higgins speaks with his usual perspicacity:
“Here we have the Koran of Mohammed and the first four sincere and zealous
patriarchs, and the Koran of the conquering and magnificent Saracens – puffed up
with pride and vanity. The Koran of the eclectic philosopher was not likely to suit
the conquerors of Asia. A new one must be grafted on the old, to find a justification
for their enormities.

 

[tkthafm]

@ the vagueness.

What source ? What scholar ? What specific contradictions are they talking about ? What inconsistencies ?
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_Higgins 

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[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

@ the vagueness.

What source ? What scholar ? What specific contradictions are they talking about ? What inconsistencies ?

that's what I thought-

In case you couldn't read it the last 3 times i'm "accepting" the fact that Islam has no inconsistencies-Now I want you to confront the passages I posted

[table][tr][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][td][table][tr][td]
[/td][td]

Muhammad's Own Words

Prophet of Doom was written to expose what Islam’s founder had to say about himself, his ambition, religion, and god.Before you use or criticize these quotes, please read this overview from the author.For those who are serious about the study of Islam, be sure to read the source material appendix, entitled Islam's Dark Past.
[/td][td]
[/td][/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]

[/td][td][table][tr][td]Murder[/td][/tr][/table][/td][td]

[/td][/tr][/table][table][tr][td]Tabari IX:69[/td][td]"Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:141[/td][td]"The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bukhari:V5B59N512[/td][td]"The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:489[/td][td]"Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Qur'an 2:191[/td][td]"And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Qur'an 33:60[/td][td]"Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bukhari:V4B52N270[/td][td]"Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:368[/td][td]"Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368[/td][td]"We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:97[/td][td]"The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:369[/td][td]"Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bukhari:V1B1N6[/td][td]"Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq: 676[/td][td]"'You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet's wishes. That very night he crept into the writer's home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, 'You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said. 'She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' 'No,' the Prophet answered. 'Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bukhari:V1B11N626[/td][td]"The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:178
Ishaq:550[/td][td]"Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka'aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa'd [the Qur'an's one and only scribe]. The reason that Allah's Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur'an Revelation. Then he apostatized [rejected Islam]."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:179[/td][td]"Abdallah bin Sa'd fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, 'By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!' One of the Ansar said, 'Why didn't you give me a sign?' Allah's Apostle replied, 'A prophet does not kill by pointing.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:179
Ishaq:550[/td][td]"Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa'id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:551[/td][td]"Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali. The Messenger ordered Miqyas' assassination only because he had killed an Ansar who had killed his brother by mistake and then became a renegade by rejecting Islam."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:180[/td][td]"Also among those eliminated were Ikrimah bin Abu Jahl and Sarah, a slave of one of Abd Muttalib's sons. She taunted Muhammad while he was in Mecca."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:181[/td][td]"The Messenger ordered six men and four women to be assassinated. One of these women was Hind, who swore allegiance and became a Muslim."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bukhari:V4B52N281[/td][td]"They took Khubaib to Mecca after the battle of Badr. He had killed Harith, a Meccan nobleman. The Quraysh gathered to kill him in retribution.... Khubaib wanted to offer two Rakat (prayers). They allowed this and he said, 'O Allah, kill them all with no exception.' He then recited the poetic verse: 'I'm being martyred as a Muslim. I do not mind how I am killed in Allah's Cause. For my killing is for Allah's Sake. If Allah wishes, He will bless the amputated parts of my torn body.' Then the son of Harith [the man Khubaib had murdered] killed him."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:597[/td][td]"When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta'if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The poets who were left spread in all directions."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari IX:76[/td][td]"Malik has reported to me that you were the first from Himyar to embrace Islam and that you have killed infidels, so rejoice at your good fortune."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari IX:121[/td][td]"When it was feasible for me, I struck him with my sword and killed him. Then I departed, leaving his women to throw themselves at him. When I returned to the Prophet, he asked, 'Is your mission accomplished?' 'Yes. I have killed him.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:308
Tabari VII:65[/td][td]"When the Apostle was in Safra, Nadr was assassinated. When Muhammad reached Irq al-Zabyah he killed Uqbah. When the Prophet ordered him to be killed, Uqbah said, 'Who will look after my children, Muhammad?' "Hellfire,' the Apostle replied, and he was killed."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:85[/td][td]"Muhammad killed many Quraysh polytheists at Badr."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:99[/td][td]"In this year, the killing of Abu Rafi the Jew took place. The Messenger sent some Ansar under the command of Abd Allah and Abd Allah against the Jew. Abu Rafi used to injure and wrong the Prophet.... Abd Allah said to the others, 'Stay where you are, and I will go and ingratiate myself with the doorkeeper to gain entrance.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:100[/td][td]"Every time I opened a door, I shut it behind me from the inside, saying to myself, 'If they become aware, they will not have time to stop me from killing him.' When I reached Rafi, he was in a dark room with his family. As I did not know where he was in the room, I said, 'O Abu Rafi.' When he replied, I proceeded toward the voice and gave him a blow with my sword. He shouted and I came back, pretending to be a helper. I said, 'O Abu,' changing the tone of my voice. He asked me, 'I don't know who came to strike me with his sword.' Then I drove my sword into his belly and pushed it forcibly till it touched the bone. I hit him again and covered him with wounds, but I could not kill him, so I thrust the point of my sword into his stomach until it came out through his back. At that, I knew that I had killed him [in front of his wife and children]. I came out, filled with puzzlement, and went towards a ladder in order to get down but I fell into a moonlit night and sprained my foot. I bound it with my turban and moved on. I came to my companions and said, 'By Allah, I will not leave till I hear the wailing of their women.' So, I did not move till I heard them crying for the Jewish merchant. I said, 'Deliverance! Allah has killed Abu Rafi.' I got up, feeling no ailment, and proceeded till we came upon the Prophet and informed him."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:101[/td][td]"The Khazraj asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam Huqayq, who was in Khaybar. He granted this."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:482[/td][td]"One of the favors which Allah conferred upon his Prophet was that these two tribes of the Ansar, the Aws and the Khazraj, used to vie with one another like stallions to carry out the will of Muhammad. The Aws did not do anything which benefited him without the Khazraj saying, 'By Allah they will not gain superiority over us in Islam in the eyes of the Messenger by doing this.' And they would not cease until they had done something similar. Thus when the Aws killed Ka'b Ashraf on account of his hostility to Muhammad, the Khazraj conferred to find a man comparable to Ka'b in hostility and called to mind Sallam Huqayq in Khaybar. They asked the Prophet for permission to kill him, and it was granted."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:101
Ishaq:483[/td][td]"Sallam's wife came out and we told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. When we entered, we bolted the door on her so she gave a shout to warn him of our presence. We rushed upon him with our swords as he lay in his bed. He took his pillow and tried to fend us off. Abd Allah thrust his sword into his stomach and transfixed him while he was shouting, 'Enough! Enough!' At once we went out but Abd Allah had bad eyesight, and he fell off the stairway, bruising his leg or arm. 'How shall we know that the enemy of Allah is dead?' one of us asked. 'I will go and look,' one replied. He set off and mingled with the people. He said, 'I found him with the men of the Jews, and with his wife, who had a lamp in her hand, peering into his face. She said, 'By the God of the Jews, he is dead.' I never heard any more pleasing words than these. We went to the Messenger of Allah and told him that we had killed the enemy of Allah. We disagreed in his presence about the killing of Sallam, each of us claiming to have done it. The Prophet said, 'Bring me your swords.' We did and he looked at them. He said, 'This sword of Abd Allah killed him. I can see the marks left by bones on it.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:483[/td][td]"Allah, what a fine band you have, one willing to kill Sallam and Ashraf! We went with sharp swords, like fighting lions. We came upon their homes and made them drink death with our swift-slaying swords. Looking for the victory of our Prophet's religion, we ignored every risk."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:112
Ishaq:372[/td][td]"When a blind Jew became aware of the presence of the Messenger and the Muslims he rose and threw dust in their faces, saying, 'Even if you are a prophet, I will not allow you into my garden!' I was told that he took a handful of dirt and said, 'If only I knew that I would not hit anyone else, Muhammad, I would throw it in your face.' Sa'd rushed in and hit him on the head with his bow and split the Jew's head open."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:403[/td][td]"Allah killed twenty-two polytheists at Uhud."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:147[/td][td]"Amr was sent by Muhammad to kill Abu Sufyan [the Quraysh leader and merchant]. The Prophet said, 'Go to Abu Sufyan and kill him.' ...When I entered Mecca I had a dagger ready to slay anybody who laid hold of me. My Ansar companion asked, 'Should we start by circumambulating the Ka'aba seven times and praying two rak'ahs?' I said, 'I know the Meccans better than you do.' But he kept pestering me until in the end we went to the Ka'aba, circumambulated it seven times, and prayed."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:148[/td][td]"One of the Meccans recognized me and shouted, 'That is Amr!' They rushed after us, saying, 'By Allah, Amr has not come here for any good purpose! He has come for some evil reason.' Amr had been a cutthroat and a desperado before accepting Islam."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:148[/td][td]"Amr said, 'Let's wait here until the cry has died down. They are sure to hunt for us tonight and tomorrow. I was still in the cave when Uthman bin Malik came riding proudly on his horse. He reached the entrance to our cave and I said to my Ansar companion, 'If he sees us, he will tell everyone in Mecca.' So I went out and stabbed him with my dagger. He gave a shout and the Meccans came to him while I went back to my hiding place. Finding him at the point of death, they said, 'By Allah we knew that Amr came for no good purpose.' The death of their companion impeded their search for us, for they carried him away."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:149[/td][td]"I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, 'Who's there?' I said [lied], 'I'm a Banu Bakr.' 'So am I.' Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: 'I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.' I said, 'You will soon see!' Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VII:150[/td][td]"I had tied my prisoner's thumbs together with my bowstring. The Messenger of Allah looked at him and laughed so that his back teeth could be seen. Then he questioned me and I told him what had happened. 'Well done!' he said, and prayed for me to be blessed."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:434[/td][td]"Amr and an Ansari waited until they were asleep. Then Amr killed them, thinking that he had taken vengeance for the Muslims who had been slain. When he came to the Messenger, he told him what had happened. The Prophet said, 'You have killed men for whom I shall have to pay blood-money.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:22[/td][td]"Hassan was with the women and children. A Jew passed by and began to walk around his settlement. There was no one to protect them while the Apostle and his Companions were at the Meccans' throats. So I said: 'Hassan, this Jew is walking around. I fear he will point out our weakness while the Muslims are too busy to attend to us. So go down to him and kill him."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:22
Ishaq:458[/td][td]"'Allah forgive you, daughter of Abd al-Muttalib,' Hassan said. 'You know that I am not the man to do it.' When he said that to me I saw that nothing could be expected from him. I girded myself, took a club, and, having gone down from the fortress to the man, I struck him with the club until I killed him. When I had finished with him, I returned to the fortress and said, 'Hassan, go down to him and strip him - only his being a man kept me from taking his clothes.' Hassan replied, 'I have no need for his spoils.'"[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ishaq:464[/td][td]"The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:40[/td][td]"The Messenger commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:38[/td][td]"The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."[/td][/tr][tr][td]Tabari VIII:90[/td][td]"Abu Basir went out with his companions. When they stopped to rest he asked one of them, 'Is this sword of yours sharp?' 'Yes,' he replied. 'May I look at it?' Basir asked. 'If you wish.' Basir unsheathed the sword, attacked the man, and killed him. The other Muslim ran back to the Messenger, saying, 'Your Companion has killed my friend.' While the man was still there, Abu Basir appeared girded with the sword. He halted before Muhammad and said, 'Messenger, your obligation has been discharged.'"[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

@ the vagueness.

What source ? What scholar ? What specific contradictions are they talking about ? What inconsistencies ?

that's what I thought-

In case you couldn't read it the last 3 times i'm "accepting" the fact that Islam has no inconsistencies-Now I want you to confront the passages I posted

How do you want me to "confront" them ? Do I agree with them ? Absolutely. 
The thing is, the way you present them is very disingenuous. (no context). Obviously you do this to fit your needs in portraying Islam in a certain way. Do you want to pick one, look at the context, and discuss it ? I have no problem with that. Bombarding the thread with articles/context-less verses does nothing.

I can just go watch Fox news and learn the same things.

 

[tkthafm]

What you copy/pasted above (from "Prophet of Doom") has already been refuted.

http://www.answering-chri...winn_quotes_rebuttal.htm


Remember, Craig Winn (guy behind "Prophet of Doom" is a business man with no scholarly background or any real understanding/study of the religion).

Not gonna take a page from your book and copy/paste the entire response, but feel free to look. I doubt you will though because it seems your entire agenda is to find anti-Islamic material and post it, rather than attempt to gain any understanding of what you are criticizing.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

@ the vagueness.

What source ? What scholar ? What specific contradictions are they talking about ? What inconsistencies ?

that's what I thought-

In case you couldn't read it the last 3 times i'm "accepting" the fact that Islam has no inconsistencies-Now I want you to confront the passages I posted

How do you want me to "confront" them ? Do I agree with them ? Absolutely. 
The thing is, the way you present them is very disingenuous. (no context). Obviously you do this to fit your needs in portraying Islam in a certain way. Do you want to pick one, look at the context, and discuss it ? I have no problem with that. Bombarding the thread with articles/context-less verses does nothing.

I can just go watch Fox news and learn the same things.

lol @ disingenuous-stop beating around the bush do you agree that women should be treated that way? It's a very simple question-and if you think those quotes were presented wrong please repost them how they are supposed to be presented


I'll wait

 

[antonlavey]

Sura 4:34 of the Koran says,
“Menare the managers of the affairs of women . . . Those women who are rebellious —admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them.

 

[tkthafm]

Do I agree with them ? Absolutely.


Women treated in what way exactly ?

 

[tkthafm]

The word choice of that translation is pretty poor, but watch this for clarification:



Basic summary is that "beating" (poor translation for lightly hitting ex: with a miswak (small wood Islamic toothbrush

) may be allowed in only extreme circumstances after the other options (discussed in the video) are exhausted. The Prophet (the best example for all Muslims) never once laid a finger on any of his wives or any other woman.

Of course this will be the sticking point and you will claim this is an example of how wrongfully Islam treats women, ignoring all other verses protecting their rights and commanding men to be kind to their wives and treat them well.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The word choice of that translation is pretty poor, but watch this for clarification:



Basic summary is that "beating" (poor translation for lightly hitting ex: with a miswak (small wood Islamic toothbrush

) may be allowed in only extreme circumstances after the other options (discussed in the video) are exhausted. The Prophet (the best example for all Muslims) never once laid a finger on any of his wives or any other woman.

Of course this will be the sticking point and you will claim this is an example of how wrongfully Islam treats women, ignoring all other verses protecting their rights and commanding men to be kind to their wives and treat them well.

You fell right into my trap, there are obvious verses in Islam and many other religious scriptures of mistreatment of women-Anyone who denies this is delusional, but I'm sure there are verses that tell them to be good mothers and wives (or face punishment of course) and there may be verses that promote separate but equal rights for women


Isn't this an example of a contradiction and inconsistency?


So we've established that you think it is ok to hit women for not doing what men want, FANTASTIC----Let's see what else i can get out of you

 

[tkthafm]

I don't see how this is a contradiction (or how the Qur'an calls for mistreatment).

You are given certain rights, protections etc but if you transgress you can face a certain punishment. It's that simple. Is American law contradictory for having certain "verses" about freedom etc and other "verses" on sentencing criminals to jail etc ? Of course not. If the Qur'an were to simply call on men to beat women/deny them rights etc without limit and for no reason, your point would be valid.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

I don't see how this is a contradiction (or how the Qur'an calls for mistreatment).

You are given certain rights, protections etc but if you transgress you can face a certain punishment. It's that simple. Is American law contradictory for having certain "verses" about freedom etc and other "verses" on sentencing criminals to jail etc ? Of course not. If the Qur'an were to simply call on men to beat women/deny them rights etc without limit and for no reason, your point would be valid.

yes American law has a lot of contradictions, what's your point?


So you think it is ok to kill women who have been raped? Are we really going to sit here and act like every reason in the Quran calling for the punishment of women is justified?


Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

 

[tkthafm]

That's the same exact Sura we were just discussing.

Where in the Qur'an does it call upon a raped women to be killed ? I'll wait.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

 That's the same exact Sura we were just discussing.

Where in the Qur'an does it call upon a raped women to be killed ? I'll wait.

This is a give an take discussion, I will post that when you confront the last quote i posted

Does the Quran consider men superior to women? simple question-Why are women not allowed to inflict punishment on men when they misbehave?

 

[antonlavey]

[h3]Muhammad: A Rapist [/h3]
Muhammad allowed his men to rape the women captured in raids. However, after capturing the women, Muslims faced a dilemma.  They wanted to have sex with them but also wanted to return them for ransom and therefore did not want to make them pregnant.  Some of these women were already married.  Their husbands had managed to escape when taken by surprise and were still alive.  The raiders considered the possibility of coitus interruptus (withdrawing from intercourse prior to ejaculation).  Unsure of the best course of action, they went to Muhammad for counsel. Bukhari reports:

Abu Saeed said: “We went out with Allâh's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus.  So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allâh's Apostle who is present among us?"  We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist." [1]

Notice that Muhammad does not forbid raping women captured in war.  Instead, he indicates that when Allâh intends to create anything, nothing can prevent it.  In other words, not even the absence of semen can prevent it.  So Muhammad is telling his men that coitus interruptus would be futile and ill-advised because it would be an attempt to thwart the irresistible will of Allâh.  Muhammad does not say a word against the forced insemination of these captive females. In fact, by criticizing coitus interruptus, in effect he supported forced insemination.

In the Qur’an, Muhammad’s god made it legal to have intercourse with slave women, the so-called “right hand possessions,

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

 That's the same exact Sura we were just discussing.

Where in the Qur'an does it call upon a raped women to be killed ? I'll wait.

This is a give an take discussion, I will post that when you confront the last quote i posted

Does the Quran consider men superior to women? simple question

No, they are equal in terms of human value, but the male is the clear leader of the household. A simple statement like "men and women are equal" is not true.. just due to physiology each gender (even each individual human) has certain strengths/weaknesses, as well as the roles given to them in family/society. The main thing is that the Qur'an stresses that irrespective of race or gender the only thing we are judged on are our deeds.
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[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

 That's the same exact Sura we were just discussing.

Where in the Qur'an does it call upon a raped women to be killed ? I'll wait.

This is a give an take discussion, I will post that when you confront the last quote i posted

Does the Quran consider men superior to women? simple question

No, they are equal in terms of human value, but the male is the clear leader of the household. A simple statement like "men and women are equal" is not true.. just due to physiology each gender (even each individual human) has certain strengths/weaknesses, as well as the roles given to them in family/society. The main thing is that the Qur'an stresses that irrespective of race or gender the only thing we are judged on are our deeds.
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Right "separate but equal"- this isn't about physiology this is about men having the right to punish and dictate what women do in the koran but women not being able to do the same

Why do men have the right to inflict punishment on women but women cannot do the same? Why don't men have to wear a veil?

 

[tkthafm]

Because women are not given the responsibility or right to be the head of the household (when the husband is alive/capable).

Men too have a dress code, but obviously it is different. You and I know both know damn well as men how women on the street are looked at/evaluated and the thoughts that run through minds because of it, especially when women dress in certain ways. Naturally the extent of this is not the same for men, so it makes sense why men would not also have to cover their hair. It goes back to the basic differences between men/women and how our minds work, sexuality, etc
Notice in the West how the veil (face doesn't have to be covered) is looked at as oppressive, yet at the same time, when they want to portray women as being modest, pious, respectful etc they are often wearing the veil themselves. Look at nuns dress, or how pictures of Mary portray her... almost always wearing a veil  

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Because women are not given the responsibility or right to be the head of the household (when the husband is alive/capable).

Men too have a dress code, but obviously it is different. You and I know both know damn well as men how women on the street are looked at/evaluated and the thoughts that run through minds because of it, especially when women dress in certain ways. Naturally the extent of this is not the same for men, so it makes sense why men would not also have to cover their hair. It goes back to the basic differences between men/women and how our minds work, sexuality, etc

Explain, this is vague what differences between men and women, lets men tell women what to do and forbids women from doing the same?

What is the "scientific" reason for Muslim women covering their face?


Might also want to explain Muhammad condoning rape


I got a long list of questions, let's keep this going-Because a lot of what I see in the Quran is highly immoral


Also if you don't mind-Give me a list of behaviors you think is ok to beat women for I'm curious