(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

[KingParappa]

Finally got to that part in ADWD

 

[fantastic4our]

I could see Dany going mad but I doubt it, I feel like the text made certain to show how different she was from her brother. Barristan always remarks how Dany is more like Rhaegar.

A = Aerys? I guess that's technically possible. Was she in Dorne (ToJ) during the whole rebellion? Because the Martell girl was in Kings Landing still.

Benjen and Brandon both don't work because Brandon got burned by Aerys which started the whole thing and Benjen was in Winterfell while Ned rode out.

 

[tdogg2k]

The brandon benjen thing was a joke lol. People have said it before but just as a big F-U to the people who think r+l = J is canon...which its not right now

 

[tdogg2k]

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so my A+L = J Theory,

Listen we all know that Aerys was a lunatic. it was suggested he raped Tywins wife (could possibly be Tyrions father , which would explain the mix match eyes)

Rhaegar gave Lyanna his favor, this is true, Barriston even said Rhaegar loved Lyanna, which I believe is when that R+L = J theory really takes off...
but timel lines still don't really match up (I'll save all the timeline stuff for later since I assume everyone here is familiar with them)

Now we know Jon is a month or two older than Dany,
but Rhaegar was said to be dutiful honarable, he was a book worm who read something and decided. to be a warrior.
Now he said he must be a warrior, but why???
Because of prophecies. is the answer...
now he becomes a beast, but still not a true a warrior.
Fast forward to the tourney, he meets lyanna falls in love...
FF again, he ends up not being with Lyanna, but why.... for Martel, for dorne...but something else had to have happened.
we know Aerys was no fan Brandon Stark and the Stark father.
they were there and visiting to Lyanna, I believe he took Lyanna then. raped her, The reason Brandon and his dad were there then burned alive i think was stated but I feel like it had something to do with Lyanna ..Which was at Tower of Joy, Guarded by....................KINGSGUARD not Prince Rhaegar guard... who did not control Kingsguard. only the king could..
now we see that Jaimee wanted to go with Rhaegar, but Rhaegar wanted him to stay ... why do you think this is..

While standing vigil over his father's funeral bier, Jaime thinks about the day he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep.
The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. Jamie pled with him to accompany him but Rhaegar refused, telling Jaime that Aerys feared his father, Tywin Lannister, more than he did his cousin, Robert Baratheon. He wanted Jaime close so Tywin could not harm him. Rhaegar stated that he dare not take that crutch away from Aerys at such an hour. When Jaime balked at that Rhaegar put a hand on young Jaime’s shoulder and told him:
“ When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return. ”
Those were the last words Rhaegar spoke to Jaime. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. The Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom. [4]

to me this means, he was going to turn on his father.
He knew Tywin would probably do the same so was sort of leaving the dirty work to Jaime the whole time. (the dirty work of picking Kin over the King)

Heres where my theory comes to play
Rhaegar actually went to that battle field to convince Robert he was actually on his side and wanted to get Lyanna back. Wanted to join forces with Robert,
but robert filled with Bloodlust wanted nothing more but to fight him especially since everyone knew they were old olves.... but at this point Rhaegar was married and dutiful to Elia, but still had love enough for Lyanna to get her back safe and sound even if it was to go to Robert.
he felt bad about the starks burning because of his father.

So Aerys kept Lyanna in the tower in order to keep her away from Rhaegar more so than Robert.
Aerys was a jealous mad man, so why wouldn't he have done this. plus.

When Jon is discussing the issue of trust with Aegon, he warns him not to become too wary - else mistrust can poison and make a person sour and fearful. He thinks to himself that:
“ King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough.[31] ”

Plus when Ned gets to the toj what did Dayne say... "have we known our false brother slayed the king, he would lie dead too" They were Kings men! not Rhaegars


So my whole thing in short
Cliff Notes.
Aerys rapped Lyanna
Aerys sent her to TOJ with guards
Rhaegar actually wanted to team with Robert

 

[Barbados Slim]

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Possible, but I highly doubt it. Two problems I have with your theory. 

1. Rhaegar and Robert team up - Why would Rhaegar even think Robert would join forces with him. The whole war started when Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (or volentarily left ran away with him) and the Starks went to KL to get ask for her back and Areys killing them. 

 - Your theory about Rhaegar turning on his father could be true but probably for a different reason then what you stated. Couldn't he have turned on his Father because he killed the women he love's father and brother? 

2. 

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so my A+L = J Theory,

Listen we all know that Aerys was a lunatic. it was suggested he raped Tywins wife (could possibly be Tyrions father , which would explain the mix match eyes)

Rhaegar gave Lyanna his favor, this is true, Barriston even said Rhaegar loved Lyanna, which I believe is when that R+L = J theory really takes off...
but timel lines still don't really match up (I'll save all the timeline stuff for later since I assume everyone here is familiar with them)
think was stated but I feel like it had something to do with Lyanna ..Which was at Tower of Joy, Guarded by....................KINGSGUARD not Prince Rhaegar guard... who did not control Kingsguard. only the king could..
 

2. Your issue with R+L = J is timeline, but time line wise it makes more sense then A+L=J

 - There were 3 KG at the Tower of Joy when Ned got there, but this was AFTER Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead. The KG swore vows to the KING. If Aerys was dead when Ned got there, why are they still there? better yet, why did they fight Ned?....Unless they were there to protect the King and if R+L=J is true, then that would explain their presence of the KG. Which would only be true if the theory of Rhaegar and Lyanna getting married was true. Which is a whole separate theory on its own. if A+L=J were true, it would still make Jon a bastard and the KG aren't sworn to protect him. 

 

[tdogg2k]

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Possible, but I highly doubt it. Two problems I have with your theory. 
1. Rhaegar and Robert team up - Why would Rhaegar even think Robert would join forces with him. The whole war started when Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar (or volentarily left ran away with him) and the Starks went to KL to get ask for her back and Areys killing them. 
 - Your theory about Rhaegar turning on his father could be true but probably for a different reason then what you stated. Couldn't he have turned on his Father because he killed the women he love's father and brother? 

2. 
2. Your issue with R+L = J is timeline, but time line wise it makes more sense then A+L=J
 - There were 3 KG at the Tower of Joy when Ned got there, but this was AFTER Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead. The KG swore vows to the KING. If Aerys was dead when Ned got there, why are they still there? better yet, why did they fight Ned?....Unless they were there to protect the King and if R+L=J is true, then that would explain their presence of the KG. Which would only be true if the theory of Rhaegar and Lyanna getting married was true. Which is a whole separate theory on its own. if A+L=J were true, it would still make Jon a bastard and the KG aren't sworn to protect him. 

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1. You almost say that as if Aerys still didn't have followers, Rhaegar was loved yes, but do you think he could've just killed or over threw his father himself and be loved... no he'd be named a Kingslayer and Kinslayer..
The war started more so for the deaths of the people Aerys was burning. including starks. The next great family in Westeros and closes to kin is the Baratheons.
With Lyanna being taken it excited Robert to be the head of the rebellion, if anything though it was more for Starks Revenge, imo.

by the way ned delivered the news to the 3 KG members it's as if they didn't know Aerys had died....remember timeline events would be this Trident ---->Tywin moving in (Lannisters pick the winning side)---- Jaime killing aerys ned arriving ----> straight to TOJ ... with in that time from when would the KGs have heard. also from Aerys departing to the TOJ (possibly Lyanna giving birth. or dying from previous comoplications ---> that's the time line that has people messed up because that would put Dany as older than Jon, which we know he is older than her)...

KG are sworn to do what the king tells them to do and that's what the King told them to do, now the real question is why....

Hightower was so loyal to Aerys it was said. and even Loyal to fault.... with that said that means Aerys did something foul that Hightower still covered for him with.


and for the people who keep saying. the 3 headed dragon or the 3 that are promised.. wouldn't it make sense if they were Aery's youngest children...Dany, Jon, Tyrion (for the people who believe in that)

 

[Barbados Slim]

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1. You almost say that as if Aerys still didn't have followers, Rhaegar was loved yes, but do you think he could've just killed or over threw his father himself and be loved... no he'd be named a Kingslayer and Kinslayer..
The war started more so for the deaths of the people Aerys was burning. including starks. The next great family in Westeros and closes to kin is the Baratheons.
With Lyanna being taken it excited Robert to be the head of the rebellion, if anything though it was more for Starks Revenge, imo.

Aery's has been burning people alive before the starks and no one flinched. It wasn't until he killed the Starks that War broke out and they were only there to get Lyanna back so you can say the war specifically started because of Lyanna's kidnapping or disappearance. 

by the way ned delivered the news to the 3 KG members it's as if they didn't know Aerys had died....remember timeline events would be this Trident ---->Tywin moving in (Lannisters pick the winning side)---- Jaime killing aerys ned arriving ----> straight to TOJ ... with in that time from when would the KGs have heard. also from Aerys departing to the TOJ (possibly Lyanna giving birth. or dying from previous comoplications ---> that's the time line that has people messed up because that would put Dany as older than Jon, which we know he is older than her)...

KG are sworn to do what the king tells them to do and that's what the King told them to do, now the real question is why....

Hightower was so loyal to Aerys it was said. and even Loyal to fault.... with that said that means Aerys did something foul that Hightower still covered for him with.


and for the people who keep saying. the 3 headed dragon or the 3 that are promised.. wouldn't it make sense if they were Aery's youngest children...Dany, Jon, Tyrion (for the people who believe in that)

Judging by the dialogue between Ned and the KG at the tower it seems like they already knew the out come of the war so Ned was not there to tell them. He was simply there to retrieve his sister. 

Think about what happened with Hightower. He was sent to go find Prince Rhaeger and bring him to KL during the war. Rhaegar returns to KL but Hightower doesn't and the next time you hear about him (timeline wise) he's at the Tower guarding Lyanna and her son. If he was so loyal to Aerys why didn't he return with the Prince? after all a Kingsgaurd's place is by the king so once he found Rhaegar shouldn't he have returned to KL with him? Hightower was present when Aery's killed Rickard and Brandon. What I think happened is Hightower found Rhaegar and Rhaegar convinced him that his father is mad and is not fit to be King and sent Hightower to guard his son. 

Also Hightower says "The Kingsgaurd does not flee" to Ned at the Tower. The key word being "flee". Like I said a KG's place is BY the king, now why would he say that to Ned unless he was BY the king....Jon......allegedly

  

 

[tdogg2k]

^ by that sentence you just sort of proved that he was Aerys because Rhaegar was dead but Viserys and Dany were still alive... presumed dead... and if it was Rhaegars that still would not have made Jon the king since Rhaegar had a true born son Aegon. Which would have made jon close to 2 years old right??

Which is sort of reason i dont even think Jon was conceived at the TOJ

 

[Barbados Slim]

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The line of succession (if Jon is Rhaegar's) would have been Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Jon, Viserys, but by the time Ned arrived at the tower Aerys, Rheagar, and Aegon were dead thus making Jon king hence the KG v Ned showdown. That was the point I was trying to make at the end of my post. Hightower didn't flee because he was by the King....allegedly 

Also assuming Lyanna and Rhaegar were married 

 

[je ne sais quoi]

A bastard can't be in the line of succession unless legitimized.

 

[Barbados Slim]

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That's why I added that last sentence in my post. 

A bastard can't be in the line of succession unless legitimized.

 

[tdogg2k]

well with the targs they did things a bit different. and we also dont know if Jons mom may have been secretly married to the Aerys or not which would legitmaize him.

IIRC correctly in the book history of Westeroes. the bastard is still highborn so still counts in the line of succession I"ll have to read again.

 

[Barbados Slim]

well with the targs they did things a bit different. and we also dont know if Jons mom may have been secretly married to the Rhaegar or not which would legitmaize him.

IIRC correctly in the book history of Westeroes. the bastard is still highborn so still counts in the line of succession I"ll have to read again.

fixed 

 

 

[shogun]

So the show might spoil some stuff from the next book? Not happy about that.

 

[tdogg2k]

It was recently confirmed by a D&d interview that this season won't

 

[hybridsoldier23]

New Winds of Winter chapter is out:


http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/


Not a lot going on but it's well written.

 

[Barbados Slim]

Good lookin out

 

[tdogg2k]

I refuse to read chapters

 

[T0INE]

I refuse to read chapters

This.

That fat troll needs to drop WoW already.

 

[pitman13]

I really love these series of videos from this guy on YouTube dissecting the fan theories. Check out the latest below, and I will put the rest in a spoiler for loading purposes. Hope we can get some more discussion going in here since I can never really say anything in the TV thread

Thanks for posting.

The Who is Azor Ahai video literally blew my mind.

 

[parada45]

I refuse to read chapters

Same here

 

[tdogg2k]

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we have a bet going on in my group ..
If jon Snow will get stabbed this season or next.


My money is on this season and that will be the season 5 cliff hanger of episode 10.

 

[parada45]

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Should I give up hope on Lady Stone Heart ever appearing?

 

[tdogg2k]

Yes. Even grrm said yes

 

[pitman13]

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we have a bet going on in my group ..
If jon Snow will get stabbed this season or next.


My money is on this season and that will be the season 5 cliff hanger of episode 10.

This pretty much is the biggest speculation among book readers. I personally think it'll be the incident in their "infamous shocker" moment in ep9. Jon "Kills the boy" in episode 5. That gives D&D 4 episodes to build Jon up as Lord Commander only to be betrayed by his brothers for maximum shock value.

I think they put Cersei's walk of shame in episode 10 & end the season with Dany riding Drogon.