The Roger Clemens Appreciation Thread

Great player indeed, but a total +$%+ head.

See you in Cooperstown Rocket.
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Originally Posted by h3at23

I'm sorry, I can't appreciate a cheater
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Truth, Yea can't appreaciate a guy that cheated the game using steroids
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Maddux would have won 400 games if he used steroids and Koufax would have went another 10 years of sub 3.00 ball if he was juicing as well. Sorry, I can't give this guy the title of the greatest of all time when his career looked to be over, and then miraculously resurrected when he found a little help from a pointy friend.
 
Originally Posted by FIRST B0RN

NT loves to deem players the best ever like it's going out of style. GTFOHWTBS!!
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i believe this is the first time i have ever stated on nt that play x is the best of all time, let alone make a thread about it. and IMO, its not even close with clemens being the best. 
 
Your argument for Clemens being the best is the very same argument for Nolan Ryan being the best. You have to face the fact that they're great throwers, not pitchers. Giving me a crafty arm like Koufax or Seaver and oh boy, you're watching art.
 
Originally Posted by JohnnyRedStorm

Your argument for Clemens being the best is the very same argument for Nolan Ryan being the best. You have to face the fact that they're great throwers, not pitchers. Giving me a crafty arm like Koufax or Seaver and oh boy, you're watching art.
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Crafty pitchers are fun to watch, no arguing that. But, to me, a "thrower" is someone who makes it to the show on raw talent and doesn't know how to pitch a game and are out of the league somewhat quickly. Clemens and Ryan would be the polar opposites of that. And for the record, Pedro was the funnest to watch for me, whether he was throwing 98 or 88.
 
Guy was a tremendous a-hole ever since he was at UT, or so I've heard from the few people I know that followed his career...
 
Originally Posted by CelticsPride34

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Maddux > Clemens...

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@ being the best pitcher of all-time
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I thought about Maddux, but he wasn't as good over the entire course of his career as Clemens was. You could make an argument that maddux was the best pitcher in the 90's, but Clemens 86-90 and 00-06 is what tips the scales for him.
And for real, if you saying he's not close to the best, then who is?
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Steroids. 

  
 
Originally Posted by CelticsPride34

Originally Posted by JohnnyRedStorm

Your argument for Clemens being the best is the very same argument for Nolan Ryan being the best. You have to face the fact that they're great throwers, not pitchers. Giving me a crafty arm like Koufax or Seaver and oh boy, you're watching art.
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Crafty pitchers are fun to watch, no arguing that. But, to me, a "thrower" is someone who makes it to the show on raw talent and doesn't know how to pitch a game and are out of the league somewhat quickly. Clemens and Ryan would be the polar opposites of that. And for the record, Pedro was the funnest to watch for me, whether he was throwing 98 or 88.
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For the most part you're right because throwers eventually lose some of their steam and fail to adjust, but Nolan and Clemens were still throwing hard at the end of their careers. I'll give them both credit, though, they both knew how to pitch, but they were too much of throwers for my liking to be considered the greatest ever. And watching Pedro work was definitely a real treat, the guy knew how to get the most out of his arm.
 
How many HR's would Hank have hit if he wasn't on amphetamines half the time? EVERY era of baseball had cheating. Every single damn one. Nolan and Clemens threw that hard so late into their careers because of the incredible shape they kept themselves in. Also, Clemens took a lot of half years off.

All that said, he's def not the GOAT. In this era, I might be inclined to take Maddux and maybe Randy Johnson over him.
 
he was a beast on the blue jays..however, he can burn in hell with him and bonds giving each other reach arounds for the rest of eternity.
 
Walter Johnson, Bob Gibson, Sandy on and on...

He was great... But how legitimately great was he?
 
He's def. in the argument because his era is so clouded and he did end up putting up some insane numbers but you don't help your argument when you state things like this:

IMO, its not even close with clemens being the best.

The argument is closer than you think and beyond that I know you said you don't really care about the roids but let's also face some facts:  Clemens was an out of shape, over the hill pitcher by the time he was 33 years old and shipped out of Boston. His last four seasons with the Red Sox he had a 40-39 record with a .377 ERA, zero Cy Young votes, zero All Star games, and 11 total complete games (for comparison he had 11 complete games just in the one season -1992 - before this four year stretch, and 13 the year before that).

He is supposed to be close to the prime stages of his career and his own team decides to make virtually no effort to resign him once his deal was up in 1996.

What happened next was Clemens signing with Toronto, turning his body into a walking chemical experiment, and winning four Cy Youngs in the twilight stage of his career of the ages of 34-41. This weekly drug program helped him get through more intense workouts, give him more power and stamina, help him recover with nagging injuries, and keep him fresh during the dog days of the end of the season and playoffs. These are the facts. It's obviously up to you to determine "how big a deal that is."  Along that note it obviously was a big deal for Roger himself as he has taken the steps to deny deny deny, refuse to speak with Mitchell, lie to anyone who brings it up to this day, throw his wife under the bus, and actually lie under oath to congress and risk going to prison which still could happen. And as bonus he also has chosen to make lying more important than the charities and functions he works with that have all since chosen to remove his name from their materials and buildings.

THAT is how important drug use was for Roger and his career.

If you feel this is the GOAT no questions asked then so be it.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyRedStorm

Originally Posted by Proshares

Forgot all about Pedro.
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Pedro's run in the 90s is strikingly similar to Koufax's in the 60s.
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Yup. Pedro's 97-00 and 02 might be the best anyone has ever pitched in history. He was what Strasburg is becoming today: a show. People came to ballparks just to see him. I mean Tampa Bay increased the attendance by 3-5 times what it normally was just to see the man pitched. By far my favorite player ever.
 
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