The Top 10 Reasons why BIGGIE IS/WAS THE BEST Vol. Yes I Agree

[putting in work]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

I hear what you're saying, but when we're discussing who the greatest is, longevity plays a huge role.

If Mike played for like 7 years, broke both his legs and never played again, I would not say he's the GOAT.
Was he beast?
Yeah.

Didn't he win 2 titles?
Yeah.

But is he better than the player who's played for like 15 years, has 4 titles, and has similar numbers?
No.

It's not his fault he died, but when discussing who the GREATEST of all time is, it def. plays a role.

I think NaS is the GOAT.
But if he died after IWW, I wouldn't say he was.

Comparing sports and music is tough.

I've seen many try to do it, but it never really worked out.

But, I see what you're saying.

 

[wildout4]

i dont understand how people can say that BIG aint at least top 5

 

[yungmatt]

The responses on theses kind of threads never amaze me i swear

 

[deuce king]

Big is 1 of the greatest of all-time and if people want to list him as the GOAT then so be it, that's fine by me. I just hope those same people realizehow much Puff helped Big out and played a huge role, or even a bigger role than most people give him credit for, and I'm not saying that cause I'm aPuffy advocate, I'm not saying that cause it wasn't just Big out there all by himself like other rappers are/were. For all intense purposes musicallyspeaking Biggie is not a MADE man, like say Rakim, Nas, or Jay for example.

 

[mideastbeast]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Big is 1 of the greatest of all-time and if people want to list him as the GOAT then so be it, that's fine by me. I just hope those same people realize how much Puff helped Big out and played a huge role, or even a bigger role than most people give him credit for, and I'm not saying that cause I'm a Puffy advocate, I'm not saying that cause it wasn't just Big out there all by himself like other rappers are/were. For all intense purposes musically speaking Biggie is not a MADE man, like say Rakim, Nas, or Jay for example.

 

[harlem on the rise]

How much help musically, could a man who doesn't exactly produce OR write music contribute to the MOST talented MC to breathe on a mic, I wanna understandthis logic . . .

Nas and Jay are MADE men, you're right MADE into the mold of BIG . . . "Its ill when MCs used to be on cruddy *$*%/ took home Ready To Die, listenedstudied *$*%/ Now they on some money *$*%, sucessful out the blue"

How these N goin surpass BIG with a styled he brought to them, Nas would have a career, I'm not sure about Jay, he took BIG template and built a career offof it, and how is he better than him?? Cause he lived longer?? Is Georbe Bush a better prez than JFK cause he got to live out his term?? Point is Jay isn'tbatting 1.000 . . . He was supposed to retire in 1998, and even then he wasn't batting 1.000

Musically BIG isn't a made man?? DueceKing you my man, (Rush Managment= Rakim, Nas=Whatever trend popped up, Jay Z = Roc A Fella/Def Jam) and you'reone of the FEW people who I can always argue with cause you know your *$*%, but this is the point, in EVERY thread, EVERY year where we disagree . . .

Show me what you got

 

[deuce king]

Musically BIG isn't a made man?? DueceKing you my man, (Rush Managment= Rakim, Nas=Whatever trend popped up, Jay Z = Roc A Fella/Def Jam) and you're one of the FEW people who I can always argue with cause you know your *$*%, but this is the point, in EVERY thread, EVERY year where we disagree . . .


Nice reply Nay, at least you can reply back in a mature fashion versus that clown above you that brought nobody to the tablesbesides a bunch of lackluster stonefaces. By MADE man, I mean IMO Puff gave Big alot if not all of his hit songs and concepts. Ask yourself this, given howBiggie was, do you think he really would have or could have came up with the concept for Juicy?? Not the lyrics, I think we all know his lyrics are second tonone in a sense, I'm talking about the beat selection for Juicy or even the sampling selection, how about Mo' Money Mo' Problems, you think Bigthought of that on his own, same rules about to Playa Hater. What I mean by that is there is a big difference from a producer/assistant in the recordingstudio with you giving you insight or suggestions on a beat to choice versus your boss (Puff) telling you what beats your going to use and the direction ofyour next album.

I think people fail to realize that just as much as Puffy needed Biggie in order to establish Bad Boy and put East Coast rap back to the forefront, I honestlythink Biggie needed Puffy as well. Not to the degree of being a great emcee, or Puff teaching Big how to flow on a track, but just from an artist standpointin being able to make great music. You can say what you want to about Nas or Jay, but neither of those guys had anyone to answer to, they came up theirclassic albums on their own, meaning they had no one to answer to, no inside man to help guide their careers so to speak. Everything they did from thebeginning they did it on their own, no inside help, hence the term MADE men. When you listen to Illmatic, its crazy to think that a young kid, which Nas wasat the time was able to come up with a masterpiece like that, or how Jay was able to vividly tell the storyline and the dealings of a hustla with both rappershaving very little assitance on how to create a classic album which they both did.

As far as the aspect of who's better between Nas, Big, and Jay, all 3 are great, and I'm sure everyone's order on where they rank is different,different strokes for different folks. However, when looking at or judging greatness I do think that longevity is a factor somehow someway in the equation. It's truly unfortunate that Big was taken away from us at such a early stage in his career, but it would be naive for me or anyone else to think that justcause he was batting 1.000 when he passed away that he would have carried on that tradition and had many more classic albums under his belt. The fact of thematter is he didn't so who knows how his career would have ended. I see people all the time, especially in hip hop re-ranking rappers once an album dropscause they think their latest album wasn't as great as there last album or albums, (ie. Common). We truly never know how Big's next album would havebeen after LAD, would it have been a classic, would it have been a dud, even if it were a dud would have been able to bunch back from a poor album and dropsomething good afterwards, who's knows. The bottomline is it wasn't done. Is a movie the best movie ever, if you don't see the ending, if abasketball game the greatest basketball game ever if it's over after halftime, the list goes on and on. That's how I feel when it comes to Big.

Also, something else to think about, let's say Big had a moment like Eminem had when Proof got killed. Let's say instead of Big getting gunned down inLA it was Cease, and Big stepped away from rapping like Eminem did for a long time and just went on a hiatus because his best friend died, would Big still beat the forefront of hip hop world?? These questions and more are just something for folks to think about.

"Its ill when MCs used to be on cruddy *$*%/ took home Ready To Die Reasonable Doubt, listened studied *$*%/ Now they on some money *$*%, sucessful out the blue"


No disrespect at all, but I always thought the way Big came on Life After Death, or at least from the money aspect of things was a direct influence ofReasonable Doubt. I mean honestly, if you listen to Ready to Die and Reasonable Doubt, it's kinda clear to see who and for how long that said rapper wason some "getting money" type steez. Again, I have Biggie in my Top 5 of all time, so please there is no need for anyone to come at me like Idon't appreciate or don't think Big is one of the greatest of all-time, I'm just giving my perspective on how I see Big.

Show me what you got

"WHATEVA !%#$$$ wanna do, it's aight with me"

 

[send one]

But is he better than the player who's played for like 15 years, has 4 titles, and has similar numbers?
No
.This comparison contradicts your point.

If someone can accomplish in 7 years the same things it took someone else 15 , then yeah, that first person is better.

 

[gambit215]

This is sad, but anyway to truly UNDERSTAND how huge BIG was you just had to live in Brooklyn while he was alive, at the end of the day you heard one morechange remix every day for a good 18 months I mean, the man was another level, Like I said you had to live in BROOKLYN, no body was feeling Hov like that, hisbest fan was a nobody, I mean he was there, he was around, but I mean the Fugees were more relevant. What people fail to realize is that apart from the west,everything was being established in NYC for a looooonnnggg time. I mean really ya heard about the N**** Kingdom thing PAc was talking about.

And to the people hatin on songs like Hypnotize, like I was one of you ignorant fools but I mean one of my bk brothers had to break that song down and I meanas funny as it still sounds to this day those lyrics are LETHAL

I put ho's in NY on to DKNY
Miami VC prefer Versace
All Philly Ho's with da Moschino
Every cutie with a booty want a Coogi
Now im the real dokie
meaning who really the SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII


cmon people

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by iHateTimeDotCom

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

@ people thinking that more commercial success = better MC.




Rakim never made music for the charts. He couldn't have made something like "I need love" or something with an R&B chick singing through the
chorus if he tried to.

so being LESS versatile makes u better? i get it now

i dont really like big or rakim like that so i honestly think im the only unbiased person in this thread...

wit that said... alot of yall some jock riders...

You call it "versatile". I call it corny and a cheap trick to win over some new fans who weren't into hip-hop.

I'll admit it though, if that's what you want: LL Cool J and Biggie were better at making R&B and pop songs for the charts than Rakim. They alsohad more commercial success. But better MCs, they were not.

 

[ThaxbyChamblis]

#1, There is no undisputed GOAT.
#2. I think that Jay-Z is the GOAT. This is MY opinion. Based on what I have listened to in my lifetime (No pun intended)
#3. To say that there are 25 Rappers better than Jay-Z. Well, that's just %*!*%%# ******ed. Dead, Alive, Mainstream, Underground, German, Chinese, French,whatever. And I already know what you're gonna say. "Oh, you're jay-z ***$ rider, you've been blinded, you're biased, etc, etc."
%@!! outta here.

 

[harlem on the rise]

Aight Duece I see you . . . VALID point.

But as much as Puff's hand did improve much of BIGs work, there's a group of people who could live without Puff (I respect him for the most part) butthe role he played is simular to what Preemo did for Nas, or Pete Rock did . . . Or what Just and Ye brought to the table for Jay with Blueprint, would Jayhave made a "Heart Of The City" without Ye?? "Girls, Girls, Girls" without Just?? Or ANY of the Blueprint?? "Lucifer" on BlackAlbum was a Kanye record, Kanye came up with the idea for "Encore" and who's to say EVERY Jay album wasn't handled in a simular fashion?? . .. I mean we can't hold the fact that BIG was smart enuff to roll with Puff against him can we?? Is that fair to him as an MC or Puff as an exec, because hewouldn't use BIG's career as something to put another notch in his belt, because he hasn't mirrored that sucess in the 12 years since BIG has beengone . . . The last platinum solo rapper on Bad Boy was Mase in 97, s if Puff has this magic he aint used it in a WHILE . . . Kanye has established whathe's able to do for one career, Just too . . .

Jay didn't even rap like that when BIG was poppin, he changed his whole flow after RTD hit the scene . . . And for the record Ghost & Rae was the FIRSTNs on that Don *+@$ from that generation, it wasn't Jay, BIG or Nas . . .

As far as BIG batting 1.000 it is what it is, we can't say he wouldn't have fell off cause no one knows, but we can only base what he COULD'VE doneon what he DID do, and that's drop 2 straight classics albums, and be the one of the biggest stars in hip hop from 94-97

How did BIG copy off Reasonable Doubt when Jay copied off Cuban Linx?? Jay wouldn't have a career outside of rocking the tri state if it wasn't forBIG, and I respect Jay as an MC, deffinetly top 5, but he aint BIG, and he can release as many albums as he wants, if he wanna be better than BIG, he'sgonna have to take HIS own approach, and be a legend in HIS own skin, cause he's ALWAYS gonna live in BIG shadow . . . NaS aint been in Rakim shadow likethat, NaS took his own thing and ran with it . . .

 

[goldenarmz97]

 

[tom jooks]

Originally Posted by Harlem On The Rise

Aight Duece I see you . . . VALID point.

But as much as Puff's hand did improve much of BIGs work, there's a group of people who could live without Puff (I respect him for the most part) but the role he played is simular to what Preemo did for Nas, or Pete Rock did . . . Or what Just and Ye brought to the table for Jay with Blueprint, would Jay have made a "Heart Of The City" without Ye?? "Girls, Girls, Girls" without Just?? Or ANY of the Blueprint?? "Lucifer" on Black Album was a Kanye record, Kanye came up with the idea for "Encore" and who's to say EVERY Jay album wasn't handled in a simular fashion?? . . . I mean we can't hold the fact that BIG was smart enuff to roll with Puff against him can we?? Is that fair to him as an MC or Puff as an exec, because he wouldn't use BIG's career as something to put another notch in his belt, because he hasn't mirrored that sucess in the 12 years since BIG has been gone . . . The last platinum solo rapper on Bad Boy was Mase in 97, s if Puff has this magic he aint used it in a WHILE . . . Kanye has established what he's able to do for one career, Just too . . .

Jay didn't even rap like that when BIG was poppin, he changed his whole flow after RTD hit the scene . . . And for the record Ghost & Rae was the FIRST Ns on that Don *+@$ from that generation, it wasn't Jay, BIG or Nas . . .

As far as BIG batting 1.000 it is what it is, we can't say he wouldn't have fell off cause no one knows, but we can only base what he COULD'VE done on what he DID do, and that's drop 2 straight classics albums, and be the one of the biggest stars in hip hop from 94-97

How did BIG copy off Reasonable Doubt when Jay copied off Cuban Linx?? Jay wouldn't have a career outside of rocking the tri state if it wasn't for BIG, and I respect Jay as an MC, deffinetly top 5, but he aint BIG, and he can release as many albums as he wants, if he wanna be better than BIG, he's gonna have to take HIS own approach, and be a legend in HIS own skin, cause he's ALWAYS gonna live in BIG shadow . . . NaS aint been in Rakim shadow like that, NaS took his own thing and ran with it . . .

I agree 100% with all of this but this is how I see it.

BIG = Raw Talent.

Puff = The Vision.

It's like BIG was coming into the league and PUFF was his coach and taught him the ropes. He knew how to make the right moves at the right time. He handledthe business side of things.

However I feel BIG was so talented he didn't need PUFF and would have created the Classics that he did because when you're that talented you willbecome the master of your craft.

 

[deuce king]

Jay didn't even rap like that when BIG was poppin, he changed his whole flow after RTD hit the scene . . . And for the record Ghost & Rae was the FIRST Ns on that Don *+@$ from that generation, it wasn't Jay, BIG or Nas . . .



I hear ya champ, but I wouldn't say Jay changed his WHOLE FLOW after RTD dropped. I mean Jay's flow especially early on in his career was praticallythe same, fast cadence followed with multiple syallbles structed to the beat. As far as Ghost & Rae go and the whole Don lingo that they was popping, Ican say that they kinda got that from Ice-T, cause if you go back in the timeline, I think he was the first rapper to build something of structure in thatlane. I mean I like OB4CL just as much as the next man and it for certain had a huge impact, I think it was you that said The Infamous is like theprerequisite for OB4CL so to speak. Meaning OB4CL is like the more grown up version of Infamous, or that OB4CL picks up right from where Infamous leaves youoff at, but no way no how does Reasonable Doubt and OB4CL sound alike. The topics of discussions in the albums maybe somewhat similar but the overall albumsthemselves and the delivery as a whole are completely different to me.

As far as BIG batting 1.000 it is what it is, we can't say he wouldn't have fell off cause no one knows, but we can only base what he COULD'VE done on what he DID do, and that's drop 2 straight classics albums, and be the one of the biggest stars in hip hop from 94-97


I agree with you on this point

.

How did BIG copy off Reasonable Doubt when Jay copied off Cuban Linx?? Jay wouldn't have a career outside of rocking the tri state if it wasn't for BIG, and I respect Jay as an MC, deffinetly top 5, but he aint BIG, and he can release as many albums as he wants, if he wanna be better than BIG, he's gonna have to take HIS own approach, and be a legend in HIS own skin, cause he's ALWAYS gonna live in BIG shadow

You honestly don't think Jay has established himself in his "own" right as a legend in the game?? Meaning he's still under Big's shadowas you say?? I'll say this, just like you said earlier regarding Big, we can only go with what we have, you say Jay would have only been rocking theTri-State had it not been for Big's passing, but again how do you know that.........you or I don't. We DO know that Jay took the rap industry over fora timeframe and solidified himself on his own merit. For example, who would have thought that Tupac, that skinny looking dude wearing the funny clothes in thevideo for "Same Song" would go from Digital Underground roadie to become what he did become later on in his career. See what I mean. The best wayto judge or evaluate something is to let things play themselves out and thats what you or anyone else has to take into account when looking at Jay'scareer. You say I or anyone else shouldn't hold Big's death against him when saying that he's the GOAT, okay then so be it, I'm asking you tonot hold Big's death against Jay when looking at or judging his career. I don't want you to change your order in who you think is the GOAT cause as Ior anyone else on this board knows you have Big as GOAT and I have Jay as GOAT. Sometimes you can agree to disagree and that's all well and good. I'mjust trying to get you to change your mindset at least a bit in regards to Jay's career. If anything in regards to Life After Death, I see more ofReasonable Doubt in that album than Ready to Die in Reasonable Doubt.

 

[harlem on the rise]

Great point . . .

You got a good #*# memory too fam

We've reached the point where we agree to disagree, (much sooner than I wanted) but its all good . . . Good to have this convo wit you as always . . . Nowwhy can't the rest of these cats come with REAL arguments??

 

[deuce king]

Great point . . .

You got a good #*# memory too fam

Thanks fam, certain points that people make in this forum tend to stick with me. Your point about OB4CL made me remember what you had said about that albumawhile back, which is very true IMO.

Good to have this convo wit you as always . . . Now why can't the rest of these cats come with REAL arguments??
Good back and forth conversation with you as well. We can only hope and or pray that someday the arguments in this forum as well as others wouldimprove, maybe they can take a page out of our book.

 

[mangudai954]

Not even close for me but I see why people say this.

 

[harlem on the rise]

Hopefully . . .

Some of thse cats seem like they get coked up and post . . .

 

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by SEND ONE

But is he better than the player who's played for like 15 years, has 4 titles, and has similar numbers?


No

.This comparison contradicts your point.




If someone can accomplish in 7 years the same things it took someone else 15 , then yeah, that first person is better.






Um no, 2 titles in 7 years isn't the same thing as 4 titles in 15 years. It's the same number of titles per years played but that's not the point.He didn't contradict himself at all.

 

[prettyplaya]

okay we got it. he's the best. we know it.
but does anyone know who produced everyday struggle?
i feel like it's one of his best.
so smooth

 

[prettyplaya]

okay we got it. he's the best. we know it.
but does anyone know who produced everyday struggle?
i feel like it's one of his best.
so smooth

 

[purplehazze96]

^The Bluez Brothers, they did a lot of production on Masta Ace earlier works, there %!%@ is indeed smooth.

 

[kwestmajik]

I personally think its a toss up between him and Jay but you can't say he was the best because there are soooo many different listeners and tastes. Idon't listen to Pac AT ALL yet some claim him to be the best. This is all opinion and I respect everyone's. I just don't see the reason to go backand forth because this horse has been beaten too many times, I'm about to call animal patrol.

 

[meth68]

I am in, GOAT for me no doubt in my mind.