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[Deleted member 38182]

Originally Posted by Crook

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

I dunno man, nowhere in my post did i mention whether or not I believe what John McCain said; I was merely correcting a quote..........

But to answer your question, I don't believe what John McCain says. But at the same time I don't believe what any politician says

However having said that, I feel that we do need to step in and stop this madness. The people of Iran want the freedoms that we experience each and everyday, I don't see why can't we step in and help. Now i know everybody will hop on and say 'look at what happened in Iraq' but I feel that this is actually a problem that is visible and in plain sight; i.e. no hidden/invisible weapons of mass destruction..... just a corrupt government/leadership destroying a nation.

I hate that America thinks that we should go out and police the world, but it breaks my heart when I see the masses of a nation being kicked around and pushed over by a corrupt leadership. Which is why we should go in and just help the defenseless folks over there.

exactly man. I feel the same way. I'm Iranian myself (living in Canada) and I feel like if the people alone can't solve this problem (which they most likely won't be able to do cuz the citizens just don't have the weaponry to handle the basij even though they have the numbers in masses), then I would gladly welcome foreign help to get rid of the bastard mullahs that ruined the country and made our family have to leave in the first place.

One thing that has made me really glad about this situation is that people are seeing that Iran is really not like any other middle eastern country. Iran's full of young, modern people that are really very much like most NTers here (you can probably see that in the videos, girls are smoking and know how to dress up, people wear fancy clothes and have their modern cell phones and everything), but they are stopped by the regime. When I was in Iran last time, I went to so many parties full of girls and liquor and everything, but you know what the gov't does about these? they find out you're partying, and they send you to jail/execution/whips and torture.

thats the one thing I've definitely learned. As different as American and Middle-Eastern culture may be, Iran seems to stand out andtheir youth really seems to advanced very adept to American/Western cultures and freedoms. I always thought Iran was just another patch of desert in the MiddleEast but after the past week or two I've learned alot from this unfortunate situatuion.

 

[dieselg5]

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

It never ceases to amaze me that people really think we care about free people. We care about the resources they stand upon. Do you guys really think we care about the Iranian people? But who are we to say how the Iranians should be governed. Let the Iranian people decide.

How can Iran modernize their country if we continue to deny them access to technology and expertise, just because we don't like their leadership. Iranians are strong and proud people. While we continue to create divisions and mistrust, we should work on bridging our differences. Media outlets such as Fox News spews hatred on a daily basis.

There really isn't anything we can do about how our government decides to handle this situation. All we can do is hope for the best, and hope that the people of Iran can handle this situation correctly, and not make the same mistakes they made 30 years ago. Although, I must say, John McCain's statements completely disgusted me.

Why? What did Senator McCain say?

He pretty much said we should do whatever we can to help the people of Iran, so they can over throw the regime, and replace it with something more beneficial to the US.

No he did not. McCain said that he urges the president to be 'on the right side of history.'

Do you honestly believe that John McCain cares about the people of Iran...?

I dunno man, nowhere in my post did i mention whether or not I believe what John McCain said; I was merely correcting a quote..........

But to answer your question, I don't believe what John McCain says. But at the same time I don't believe what any politician says

However having said that, I feel that we do need to step in and stop this madness. The people of Iran want the freedoms that we experience each and everyday, I don't see why can't we step in and help. Now i know everybody will hop on and say 'look at what happened in Iraq' but I feel that this is actually a problem that is visible and in plain sight; i.e. no hidden/invisible weapons of mass destruction..... just a corrupt government/leadership destroying a nation.

I hate that America thinks that we should go out and police the world, but it breaks my heart when I see the masses of a nation being kicked around and pushed over by a corrupt leadership. Which is why we should go in and just help the defenseless folks over there.

I didn't mean that to be a quote by him. It's just the way he came off, I felt thats what he really meant.

 

[Lizakers]

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by Lizaker4Lizife

I was at a local protest today.

About 2,000 people.

So emotional. People are uniting all over the world to support the Iranian youth.

Such a beautiful thing.

i heard a kid from Iran on TV saying that the people believe they have the right to the same freedoms that the rest of the world has and they are sick of not having the rights that Americans and Europeans and other have.

Another kid said he is not afraid of dying anymore. He only fears the children growing up without freedom.


This is historic change we our witnessing and it's so important to support these causes against injustice and opressinon

LA?

no, Irvine

 

[crook]

Some pictures:

 

[tbone95860]

[h1]Voter irregularity claims rejected, Iran mediasays[/h1]
Iran's election authority has rejected claims of voting irregularities by a defeated presidential candidate, while acknowledging that the number of ballots cast in dozens cities exceeded the number of eligible voters in those areas, state-run TV reported Monday. developing story

• Neda becomes rallying cry | Latest updates
• Neda, dad before shooting | More video
• Protesters run | Reporter 'beaten'
• Throwing stones | Protesters arrested
• Covering Iran | BBC journalist expelled
• U.N. protest | Obama 'missed it'

Reuters
Iranian state radio says hundreds were arrested in clashes betweendemonstrators and security forces in Tehran while at least 17 other protesters were killed.
• Netanyahu:Iran's Repressive Nature 'Unmasked'
• Iran Rebukes U.S., Britain for Meddling in Election
• Media Watchdog: 24 Reporters Detained in Iran

 

[mangudai954]

What is going to become of all this

 

[Lizakers]

Originally Posted by Crook

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

It never ceases to amaze me that people really think we care about free people. We care about the resources they stand upon. Do you guys really think we care about the Iranian people? But who are we to say how the Iranians should be governed. Let the Iranian people decide.

How can Iran modernize their country if we continue to deny them access to technology and expertise, just because we don't like their leadership. Iranians are strong and proud people. While we continue to create divisions and mistrust, we should work on bridging our differences. Media outlets such as Fox News spews hatred on a daily basis.

There really isn't anything we can do about how our government decides to handle this situation. All we can do is hope for the best, and hope that the people of Iran can handle this situation correctly, and not make the same mistakes they made 30 years ago. Although, I must say, John McCain's statements completely disgusted me.

Why? What did Senator McCain say?

He pretty much said we should do whatever we can to help the people of Iran, so they can over throw the regime, and replace it with something more beneficial to the US.

No he did not. McCain said that he urges the president to be 'on the right side of history.'

Do you honestly believe that John McCain cares about the people of Iran...?

I dunno man, nowhere in my post did i mention whether or not I believe what John McCain said; I was merely correcting a quote..........

But to answer your question, I don't believe what John McCain says. But at the same time I don't believe what any politician says

However having said that, I feel that we do need to step in and stop this madness. The people of Iran want the freedoms that we experience each and everyday, I don't see why can't we step in and help. Now i know everybody will hop on and say 'look at what happened in Iraq' but I feel that this is actually a problem that is visible and in plain sight; i.e. no hidden/invisible weapons of mass destruction..... just a corrupt government/leadership destroying a nation.

I hate that America thinks that we should go out and police the world, but it breaks my heart when I see the masses of a nation being kicked around and pushed over by a corrupt leadership. Which is why we should go in and just help the defenseless folks over there.

exactly man. I feel the same way. I'm Iranian myself (living in Canada) and I feel like if the people alone can't solve this problem (which they most likely won't be able to do cuz the citizens just don't have the weaponry to handle the basij even though they have the numbers in masses), then I would gladly welcome foreign help to get rid of the bastard mullahs that ruined the country and made our family have to leave in the first place.

One thing that has made me really glad about this situation is that people are seeing that Iran is really not like any other middle eastern country. Iran's full of young, modern people that are really very much like most NTers here (you can probably see that in the videos, girls are smoking and know how to dress up, people wear fancy clothes and have their modern cell phones and everything), but they are stopped by the regime. When I was in Iran last time, I went to so many parties full of girls and liquor and everything, but you know what the gov't does about these? they find out you're partying, and they send you to jail/execution/whips and torture.

It was the former Shah who tried really hard to westernize Iran during his reign before the Islamic revolution. Iran was much like a European country in the50s 60s and 70s. People tasted western ideals, freedoms (not all, but many freedoms), and culture.

That's why Iran is so different. People had a taste of Western ideals, and now they want it back, but times 100.

They want democracy and freedom. They want to not be forced to be religious. They want to control their own lives. Drink if you want to drink. Wear aminiskirt if you want to. Be religious if you want to. Wear a hijab if you want to. They want existensialism

 

[rexanglorum]

Having grown up in a corner of the World with so many Perisans, Iran begins to feel like it is a troubled community a few miles away and not a troubled countythat is literally on the other side of the world. having so many Perisan friends has been useful because I have had the back story before all of this startedand because of my friends I have been interested in Iranian culture and the political scene there for years now.

While the American foreign policy establishment is probably following all of this with an eye on how this will effect the flow of oil and regional stability, Iam an American who does care about Iranians being able to live in a Democratic society and more importantly a more liberal one. The young people there andIranians living here see a country that suffers from a great deal of self imposed poverty, poverty that would not be there if it had used the overthrow of theShah to establish a real Republic with limited government, transparency, property rights and greater protections for religious minorities and as well Muslimswho are simply not very religious.

I liked Rick Steven's documentary about travelling their and his program where he talked about the politics of Iran. It is a sad commentary on the generalmediocrity in journalism that PBS's expert of European travel, the international version of Huell Howser, has some of the best insights into the country. Iparticularly liked what he pointed out by saying that generally the most right wing and hawkish of Americans also tend to support "family values"legislation and that is what drives much of Iran's policy. They did what many conservatives want and they have made laws based on "faith" and"family" and "traditional values." They also celebrate martyrs, like Rick Steven's also mentioned, it is not just Americans, who growup with someone like Patrick Henry (the patriot who said that his only regret was that he had only one life to give for his country) being an example of virtueand heroism.

These things should be taken into account and people on the right wing sometimes do not take a moment to think of how some ordinary Iranians and Iranianofficials see preserving, even if it requires a great deal of coercive force, traditional values as their only defense against twin threats of Westernencroachment from without and a break down of a functioning society from within. On the other hand, there is no sugar coating the Ayatollah's and theirviews, which they generally voice through the President of the country. Despite what some apologists say, the ruling regime is oppressive, it does not affordthe people of Iran the type of protections that we in the West would want.


What is ironic in all of this is that people on the left in West tend to support the regime and oppose the protests and opposite is true for conservatives inWest. Ironically, conservatives here would agree with the regime's view on morality and politics. At the same time, the left, which has sometimes canonizedthe regime for its opposition to US imperialism and rejection of "crass consumerism," seem to overlook the fact that the regime largely is supportedby rural and generally uneducated social conservatives, aka values voters and the people who, on the Electoral College map, lived in "Jesusland."Conversely, western conservatives would be calling for blood if millions of young people, especially students, were protesting. The people protesting in Iranwould be dismissed as a bunch of students who have nothing better to do and they should get a job and shut up and love their country. I suppose theseincongruous positions are being taken because this is seen as purely foreign policy matter and not as an assertion of where you stand, culturally, within ourown society.

As a libertarian, I wish the protesters the best of luck. From what I have heard they are not being violent or committing theft or vandalism, at least that isnot what most of them have been doing. They are just out there and peacefully asking for the same things that we take for granted.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by rck2sactown

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

Originally Posted by DieselG5

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

It never ceases to amaze me that people really think we care about free people. We care about the resources they stand upon. Do you guys really think we care about the Iranian people? But who are we to say how the Iranians should be governed. Let the Iranian people decide.

How can Iran modernize their country if we continue to deny them access to technology and expertise, just because we don't like their leadership. Iranians are strong and proud people. While we continue to create divisions and mistrust, we should work on bridging our differences. Media outlets such as Fox News spews hatred on a daily basis.

There really isn't anything we can do about how our government decides to handle this situation. All we can do is hope for the best, and hope that the people of Iran can handle this situation correctly, and not make the same mistakes they made 30 years ago. Although, I must say, John McCain's statements completely disgusted me.

Why? What did Senator McCain say?

He pretty much said we should do whatever we can to help the people of Iran, so they can over throw the regime, and replace it with something more beneficial to the US.

No he did not. McCain said that he urges the president to be 'on the right side of history.'

Do you honestly believe that John McCain cares about the people of Iran...?

I dunno man, nowhere in my post did i mention whether or not I believe what John McCain said; I was merely correcting a quote..........

But to answer your question, I don't believe what John McCain says. But at the same time I don't believe what any politician says

However having said that, I feel that we do need to step in and stop this madness. The people of Iran want the freedoms that we experience each and everyday, I don't see why can't we step in and help. Now i know everybody will hop on and say 'look at what happened in Iraq' but I feel that this is actually a problem that is visible and in plain sight; i.e. no hidden/invisible weapons of mass destruction..... just a corrupt government/leadership destroying a nation.

I hate that America thinks that we should go out and police the world, but it breaks my heart when I see the masses of a nation being kicked around and pushed over by a corrupt leadership. Which is why we should go in and just help the defenseless folks over there.

you break it, you bought it.

America can't just "go into" Iran. That's just not practical and would backfire hard.

 

[fede dpt]

Al-Arabiya Says Top Clerics May Depose Iran's Leader

Political tensions in Iran are rising, with senior figures in the Islamic Republic considering whether to depose Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, an Arabic-language TV channel said.

Tehran has seen mass demonstrations over alleged ballot fraud in the landslide reelection of hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on June 12. Official results gave the incumbent 63% of the vote, with reformist challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi getting 34%.

Khamenei said during Friday prayers that the margin of victory was too great for the election to have been stolen, and declared his support for Ahmadinejad.

Dubai-based Al-Arabiya TV channel said former Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani becomes a key figure in any move to depose Khamenei. Rafsanjani heads two influential organizations - the Expediency Council, which is a mediator between parliament and the Council of Guardians, and the Assembly of Experts, which has the power to remove the country's supreme leader.

The Al-Arabiya website cites a high-ranking source in the city of Qom, who said Rafsanjani, the Assembly of Experts and the Council of Guardians have agreed to depose Khamenei but do not intend to appoint a successor for the time being, mulling the establishment of a collective supreme rule.

Rafsanjani has been reported to have secured the support of Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, one of the most influential Shiite leaders.

Should Khamenei be deposed, Ahmadinejad will be dismissed.

The Assembly of Experts consists of 86 Islamic scholars, elected by the public for 8 years, with candidates first approved by the Council of Guardians.

Rafsanjani has not made any public announcements since the elections. Shortly before the vote, he had a conflict with the president, who accused him of corruption, and demanded that the supreme leader involve himself, but Khamenei merely condemned Ahmadinejad's words. . . .
http://www.huliq.com/1/82547/al-arab...e-irans-leader
http://www.huliq.com/1/82547/al-arabiya-says-top-clerics-may-depose-irans-leader


This could be huge.

 

[crook]

the gov't had mad police/riot/army forces out today, shut down protests pretty hard
donno whats gonna happen
I'd like to hope that rafsanjani attempting to bring down khamenei does some good, but what's to say he isn't just doing all this so he can becomesupreme leader and just continue the onslaught of oppression?

 

[martdizzle23]

I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion these protests will not change the government. Surely it will cause more confrontations, but what are they (theopposition) gaining from these confrontations, the death of innocents to simply be used as symbols for other innocents to go and throw their lives away?

 

[sadikmac]

This should happen in the Philippines if my country wants to change. Or maybe something much worse than this. It's sad my fellow countrymen areindifferent, ignorant and complacent even if the President and her officials are playing us outright for fools.

What sucks more is you eventually fall into the trap of complacency because if you want to take action, no one else really does care. In my country, corruptionis a way of life. As much as you do not want to succumb to it, NOTHING WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN if you do it the right way.

Most of my countrymen are also proud of the bloodless revolution that has happened twice (actually thrice but they're not counting one just because it wasthe poor who did it and they were allegedly paid). I say it's stupid. 2 bloodless revolutions and going 3 decades and the whole country still a piece ofcrap.



Look at the Iranians defending their sense of honor, fighting and dying just so they couldn't kiss a megalomaniac's behind. Needless to say, I admirethese people.

 

[kash55]

-

 

[fede dpt]

This article blew my mind. This Gov't is sick.

• MIDDLE EAST NEWS
• JUNE 24, 2009

[h1]Son's Death Has Iranian Family Asking Why[/h1]

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• Comments (37)

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[h3]By FARNAZ FASSIHI[/h3]
TEHRAN-The family, clad in black, stood at the curb of the road sobbing. A middle-aged mother slapped her cheeks, letting out piercing wails. The father, a frail man who worked as a doorman at a clinic in central Tehran, wept quietly with his head bowed.

Minutes before, an ambulance had arrived from Tehran's morgue carrying the body of their only son, 19-year-old Kaveh Alipour.

On Saturday, amid the most violent clashes between security forces and protesters, Mr. Alipour was shot in the head as he stood at an intersection in downtown Tehran. He was returning from acting class and a week shy of becoming a groom, his family said.

The details of his death remain unclear. He had been alone. Neighbors and relatives think that he got trapped in the crossfire. He wasn't politically active and hadn't taken part in the turmoil that has rocked Iran for over a week, they said.

"He was a very polite, shy young man," said Mohamad, a neighbor who has known him since childhood.

When Mr. Alipour didn't return home that night, his parents began to worry. All day, they had heard gunshots ringing in the distance. His father, Yousef, first called his fiancée and friends. No one had heard from him.

At the crack of dawn, his father began searching at police stations, then hospitals and then the morgue.

Upon learning of his son's death, the elder Mr. Alipour was told the family had to pay an equivalent of $3,000 as a "bullet fee"-a fee for the bullet used by security forces-before taking the body back, relatives said.

Mr. Alipour told officials that his entire possessions wouldn't amount to $3,000, arguing they should waive the fee because he is a veteran of the Iran-Iraq war. According to relatives, morgue officials finally agreed, but demanded that the family do no funeral or burial in Tehran. Kaveh Alipour's body was quietly transported to the city of Rasht, where there is family.

Everyone in the neighborhood knows the Alipour family. In addition to their slain son, they have two daughters. Shopkeepers and businesses pasted a photocopied picture of Mr. Alipour on their walls and windows. In the picture, the young man is shown wearing a dark suit with gray stripes. His black hair is combed neatly to a side and he has a half-smile.

"He was so full of life. He had so many dreams," said Arsalan, a taxi driver who has known the family for 10 years. "What did he die for?"

Write to Farnaz Fassihi at [email protected]

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by MarTdiZzle23

I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion these protests will not change the government. Surely it will cause more confrontations, but what are they (the opposition) gaining from these confrontations, the death of innocents to simply be used as symbols for other innocents to go and throw their lives away?

*** do you mean what is the point? Obviously the youth doesn't want to grow up under this piece of **** ruler. Revolutions take a long time, hopefullythese people don't die in vain. It's not about moussavi anymore he has been a ghost, just releasing comments.

 

[Lizakers]

Originally Posted by MarTdiZzle23

I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion these protests will not change the government. Surely it will cause more confrontations, but what are they (the opposition) gaining from these confrontations, the death of innocents to simply be used as symbols for other innocents to go and throw their lives away?

if everyone had that mentality, then nothing would ever change

you have to start somewhere. At the very least, these demonstrations took away the legitimacy of the government both domestically and around the world.
Also, it opened the world's eyes to how devilish the Islamic Republic really is.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Lizaker4Lizife - What you posted earlier...What you are saying is redundant. It does not change the fact that the Shah was a brutal oppressorand a tyrant. Of course, many factors caused the Revolution, but the most obvious and important one is because the Iranian people wanted freedom and herepressed them for so long. They had enough and the revolution was generated to take down the Shah. Tens of thousands were killed under the Shah, and this isno propaganda from Khomeini's camp either. As for Khomeini, who here is saying he was a saint? Nobody. He was a dictator too. I am just disagreeing on theviews of the Shah. But whatever, you seem to be fond of him, and that is your opinion.He is up there with the Saddam's of the world. However, your opinionwill not change the fact that he is known as one brutal and corrupt dictator/tyrant who took advantage of his people.

Anyways, as for right now what is happening in Iran...I admire the strength, courage, and the will of the Iranian people to want change. However, I remain askeptic because the opposition is just using all this as a ploy for their own selfish political gains. The people of Iran are fighting over somethingcompletely different than the politicians. There is in-fighting between the mullahs and the oppositions, and for them, this is all for power and they are usingthe Iranian people as a proxy to topple their rivals to gain power. It is the system itself which has to be thrown out - the theocratic government and thepower control of the mullahs. Mousavi is just as much a puppet of the mullahs supported by Khomeini while Khameni is supporting Ahmadinejad. I find it quitesickening that the opposition is fooling the Iranian people. Hopefully, the Iranian people will win in the end.

 

[dieselg5]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Lizaker4Lizife - What you posted earlier...What you are saying is redundant. It does not change the fact that the Shah was a brutal oppressor and a tyrant. Of course, many factors caused the Revolution, but the most obvious and important one is because the Iranian people wanted freedom and he repressed them for so long. They had enough and the revolution was generated to take down the Shah. Tens of thousands were killed under the Shah, and this is no propaganda from Khomeini's camp either. As for Khomeini, who here is saying he was a saint? Nobody. He was a dictator too. I am just disagreeing on the views of the Shah. But whatever, you seem to be fond of him, and that is your opinion.He is up there with the Saddam's of the world. However, your opinion will not change the fact that he is known as one brutal and corrupt dictator/tyrant who took advantage of his people.

Anyways, as for right now what is happening in Iran...I admire the strength, courage, and the will of the Iranian people to want change. However, I remain a skeptic because the opposition is just using all this as a ploy for their own selfish political gains. The people of Iran are fighting over something completely different than the politicians. There is in-fighting between the mullahs and the oppositions, and for them, this is all for power and they are using the Iranian people as a proxy to topple their rivals to gain power. It is the system itself which has to be thrown out - the theocratic government and the power control of the mullahs. Mousavi is just as much a puppet of the mullahs supported by Khomeini while Khameni is supporting Ahmadinejad. I find it quite sickening that the opposition is fooling the Iranian people. Hopefully, the Iranian people will win in the end.

I really don't think the people of Iran will let this happen again. It happened in 79 with Khomeni, I doubt that the Iranian people will make the samemistake twice. If they can get enough support and enough protesters, I sincerely hope that they will try and oust the entire theocratic system.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by DieselG5

I really don't think the people of Iran will let this happen again. It happened in 79 with Khomeni, I doubt that the Iranian people will make the same mistake twice. If they can get enough support and enough protesters, I sincerely hope that they will try and oust the entire theocratic system.

This is what I am trying to figure out.I see Iranians protesting and siding with Mousavi. In the Western media he is claimed as a"reformer". However, this man's actions in the past as well as his stance on current policies make him just as much of a hardliner asAhmadinejad, and even more so. I understand if they were protesting to overthrow the theocratic system or maybe fighting for general freedom, but it it seemsto be mixed in with the backing support for the opposition and Mousavi.

The characterizations of Mousavi in the press are at best premature, and likely outright fabrications. This is unless Moussavi himself has completely reformedhimself and his ideologies, as well as reconstructed it of more moderate parts. He just happens to be able to seduce the young Iranian generation that neverknew his radicalism and apologies for terror and bloodshed from his years as the prime minister of Iran. His policies and ideology, his faithfulness andloyalty to the Islamic revolution, his economic policies, and his anti-Americanism are all on the same level with Ahmadinejad's or even more. His electionto the Iranian presidency may signal a change in tone, but not a change in policies.

If the Iranian people do not want what happened after the revolution in '79, backing Mousavi is not the way to do it. So, are these protests for Mousavi orfor an overthrow of the theocratic system?

 

[DownByLaw]

Originally Posted by kash55

A national strike is being planned.

Word?

 

[duba169]

heard violence broke out today again at a protest

 

[kash55]

-