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it has to do with having premarital sex and you know (and the other ppl going on about std prevention and all that) know it.
Catholic Church not having the birth control restructure.
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Originally Posted by sillyputty
Promiscuity is a personal conviction, not a public one. If you want to sleep with 1 person or 100, thats your prerogative, but don't legislate that sort of morality for others.
You're free to hold that opinion but no one has to submit that sort of personal ethos.
I don't want to tell the church what to do, I just want the church to die a quick and painFUL death. Thats just my opinion though.
The funny thing is, you act like reading the bible or going to church will make anything that the church says more...reasonable......its what they were preaching in the first place that causes them to hemorrhage numbers like they are now.
Churches in Europe are leaking members like crazy...Many religious leaders are worried about the "rise of secularism" because they KNOW they're losing their power in society and they are kicking and screaming about it.
The Pope needs to be tried at the Hague...and placed on trial for 20 years...since it takes so long for a conviction to occur.
thats between you and God or whoever you choose or don't choose to worship.
but you're basically being a hypocrite. you judge the church yet you don't want the church to have a stance on this matter and to stick by this stance. pot meet kettle.
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Actions of a FEW? We're talking about the actions of priests from ACROSS THE DAMN GLOBE. And your damned Pope, who was Cardinal at the time, CONDONING the actions and COVERING UP the actions of pedophiles by placing them in different churches and allowing them to continue being in positions of power.
YOU, my friend, have no idea what you're talking about.
sillyputty
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Originally Posted by debs 168
Originally Posted by sillyputty
Promiscuity is a personal conviction, not a public one. If you want to sleep with 1 person or 100, thats your prerogative, but don't legislate that sort of morality for others.
You're free to hold that opinion but no one has to submit that sort of personal ethos.
I don't want to tell the church what to do, I just want the church to die a quick and painFUL death. Thats just my opinion though.
The funny thing is, you act like reading the bible or going to church will make anything that the church says more...reasonable......its what they were preaching in the first place that causes them to hemorrhage numbers like they are now.
Churches in Europe are leaking members like crazy...Many religious leaders are worried about the "rise of secularism" because they KNOW they're losing their power in society and they are kicking and screaming about it.
The Pope needs to be tried at the Hague...and placed on trial for 20 years...since it takes so long for a conviction to occur.i'm not one of those ppl that goes back and forth with a non believer or whatever you refer to yourself as
...So...why ...did you... respond... to me?
You remind me of a date I had a while back... "I don't usually do this..."
thats between you and God or whoever you choose or don't choose to worship.
In which case, its not...since I don't believe in one.
but you're basically being a hypocrite. you judge the church yet you don't want the church to have a stance on this matter and to stick by this stance. pot meet kettle.
Its not that you insulted me, its that you didn't read what I said that annoys me.
I do not care what the catholic church says. It doesn't bother me.
I just want people to see the church for what it is and hopefully that drives people away from them.
Its like when even german citizens realized that the Nazi party wasn't just the flavor of the month pro-german pride group, but a murderous outfit of sociopaths.
I want people to make their own decisions, hopefully to fall in line with what I hope for the world, but I can't force people to do that and I won't.
I hope the catholic church maintains its (what I deem to be) backwards view of the world and slips further into the back of the minds of even the most pious sycophants and exposes itself to be the manipulative and idiotic cancer of human existence that it is...
But I won't force them to change their teachings. Thats between them and their followers. I can't change their minds for them. All I can do is to say my piece and back off.
But hey, if god had a say so, I'm sure he'd step in and help the church's PR.
...Maybe they're not...I dunno... praying hard enough?...it can't be the cash donations.
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lol @ this win lose +*#!+%%@. you honestly think that the church gives a damn about if the world continues to become more and more secular to the point where they should bend the rules on premarital sex and/or homosexuality?
lol @ all of us being closet homosexuals according to this clown.
so i guess every denomination under the protestant umbrella is full of closet homosexuals since bishop eddie long was jumping the broom and making false covenants with teenage boys that couldn't get his smell out of their nose? that brought the whole thing to light because one of them was jealous of his relationship with another BOY?
oh but did we forget about ted haggard paying a #$@%* to have sex with him??
there are PLENTY of cases of leaders within churches that are pedophiles and/or homosexuals.
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Look Dad...another NT religion thread. They want birth control but they were accidents themselves? I'm never going back.
veintisiete
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was raised catholic my whole life, went to catholic school, the whole nine.
I would say its because of that, that I feel the way i feel now about catholicism and religion in general
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I don't mind religion. I am religious myself, albeit I do not subscribe to the Catholic belief. Furthermore, I am knowledgeable on the Catholic church, as well as religion, and how the latter has come to evolve in various ways throughout humanity's existence.
I stepped foot in various Catholic churches, both in my home state, and in those around the country. Now that I do not subscribe to Christianity I very seldom set foot in a church, but I do visit my local Buddhist temple whenever possible. I'm well versed in the bible due to my years of Sunday schooling (and independent research.) However, I do like a pretty woman...
Regardless, an individuals lack of knowledge on the specific details pertaining to the Catholic Church doesn't make them any less credible in terms of what their beliefs are. I agree with the majority of people in this thread, and despite how much the Catholic church has done for me and my family, I cannot bring myself to adhere to their rules. I maintain that they are one of the biggest promoters of discrimination and ignorance in the world.
I know how heavy of an accusation that is, but let me continue. The Catholic Church maintains that GLBT people should not be allowed to marry (mostly based on the book of Leviticus.) This is a form of discrimination, regardless on your views about GLBT people. This has prevented people all over the world from having their love recognized by their respective governments based on a religious institution's stance. In that same regard, the Catholic Church maintains that people should not use contraception of any kind, even going as far as saying that the use of condoms would further the issue of HIV/AIDS in the world when it has been scientifically proven that condoms help prevent the spread of the disease.
Do I worded the church's stances very specifically. Notice that I said "The Catholic Church maintains that people." That is not "Christians." That is not "Catholics." The Catholic Church has made stances that effect everyone, regardless of religious affiliation, and that is where I find most of my animosity towards the church stems from. It is fine if Catholicism stayed within the realm of it's adherents, but it is another thing entirely when they choose to step in the realm universality regardless of affiliation.
Catholic Church says abortions aren't okay? Cool. Catholics shouldn't get them. Likewise, if the Church says that condoms aren't acceptable? Cool. Catholics shouldn't use them. Why does the church think that it has the authority to set rules and boundaries for the world at large? I, for one, believe that it doesn't, and I think it's absolutely ridiculous to deny something that should be a human right to someone based on what a bunch of guys in big hats think.
With that being said, I don't hate the Catholic faith, as many of the individuals involved with it do a lot of positive things for the world. However, there are too many things that I'd have to overlook to really feel content about the faith as a whole.
(I'm not even touching on the countless accounts of Catholic priests molestations, and the church's systematic methodology in protecting those priests and putting them to practice elsewhere. Catholic churches across the globe have refused to help law enforcement agencies put those sick individuals in jail, citing various reasons. If you're okay with your church doing that, more power to you though.)
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Screw the Catholic Church's beliefs. The REALITY is probably 75% of the people in a catholic church have had or are having pre-marital sex.
I swear that's the one thing I can't stand about religion. Trying to fix today's problems with yesterdays philosophy, that gets you NO where.
I swear that's the one thing I can't stand about religion. Trying to fix today's problems with yesterdays philosophy, that gets you NO where.
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i completely understand what you're saying and how you feel. think to yourself what God would want and do. would God say, only the people that believe in me or would God say EVERYONE?Originally Posted by Yeah
I don't mind religion. I am religious myself, albeit I do not subscribe to the Catholic belief. Furthermore, I am knowledgeable on the Catholic church, as well as religion, and how the latter has come to evolve in various ways throughout humanity's existence.
I stepped foot in various Catholic churches, both in my home state, and in those around the country. Now that I do not subscribe to Christianity I very seldom set foot in a church, but I do visit my local Buddhist temple whenever possible. I'm well versed in the bible due to my years of Sunday schooling (and independent research.) However, I do like a pretty woman...
Regardless, an individuals lack of knowledge on the specific details pertaining to the Catholic Church doesn't make them any less credible in terms of what their beliefs are. I agree with the majority of people in this thread, and despite how much the Catholic church has done for me and my family, I cannot bring myself to adhere to their rules. I maintain that they are one of the biggest promoters of discrimination and ignorance in the world.
I know how heavy of an accusation that is, but let me continue. The Catholic Church maintains that GLBT people should not be allowed to marry (mostly based on the book of Leviticus.) This is a form of discrimination, regardless on your views about GLBT people. This has prevented people all over the world from having their love recognized by their respective governments based on a religious institution's stance. In that same regard, the Catholic Church maintains that people should not use contraception of any kind, even going as far as saying that the use of condoms would further the issue of HIV/AIDS in the world when it has been scientifically proven that condoms help prevent the spread of the disease.
Do I worded the church's stances very specifically. Notice that I said "The Catholic Church maintains that people." That is not "Christians." That is not "Catholics." The Catholic Church has made stances that effect everyone, regardless of religious affiliation, and that is where I find most of my animosity towards the church stems from. It is fine if Catholicism stayed within the realm of it's adherents, but it is another thing entirely when they choose to step in the realm universality regardless of affiliation.
Catholic Church says abortions aren't okay? Cool. Catholics shouldn't get them. Likewise, if the Church says that condoms aren't acceptable? Cool. Catholics shouldn't use them. Why does the church think that it has the authority to set rules and boundaries for the world at large? I, for one, believe that it doesn't, and I think it's absolutely ridiculous to deny something that should be a human right to someone based on what a bunch of guys in big hats think.
With that being said, I don't hate the Catholic faith, as many of the individuals involved with it do a lot of positive things for the world. However, there are too many things that I'd have to overlook to really feel content about the faith as a whole.
(I'm not even touching on the countless accounts of Catholic priests molestations, and the church's systematic methodology in protecting those priests and putting them to practice elsewhere. Catholic churches across the globe have refused to help law enforcement agencies put those sick individuals in jail, citing various reasons. If you're okay with your church doing that, more power to you though.)
and christianity is not politically correct. it shouldn't be. again, just because secularism evolves doesn't mean that the church should bend its stance on things to accept said secularism.
*shrugs*
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If the church wants to keep their rules, let them get taxed like everyone else. They don't want the government to tell them what to do yet they protest when government wants to legalize gay marriage. Marriage is a religious tradition? than why not protest city hall marrying people?
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this is not solely a catholic view. do people realize this..?
everyone is aware that this is a christian viewpoint no matter the denomination, right?
lobotomybeats
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I am on the fence on this issue until I know where the church stands on facials.
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And how, according the the Catholic Church, does not using BC discourage premarital sex?Originally Posted by debs 168
it has to do with having premarital sex and you know (and the other ppl going on about std prevention and all that) know it.
Shouldn't it mean that BC is OK for married couples (even though the Vatican says it isn't)?
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What would their Jesus do?
We have a technology that can prevent unwanted pregnancies and prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. We're talking about something that will actually save lives.
Instead of real action, they would rather prevent abortion which in turn raises the population and creates a generation of low-income, unwanted children perpetuating the cycle of poverty... they would rather people die from preventable sexually transmitted diseases...
Seems pretty counterintuitive to me. But maybe i'm just viewing it from a secular lens.
We have a technology that can prevent unwanted pregnancies and prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. We're talking about something that will actually save lives.
Instead of real action, they would rather prevent abortion which in turn raises the population and creates a generation of low-income, unwanted children perpetuating the cycle of poverty... they would rather people die from preventable sexually transmitted diseases...
Seems pretty counterintuitive to me. But maybe i'm just viewing it from a secular lens.
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Originally Posted by VeintiSiete
Catholicism
religion in general
strong cosign, and im catholic. republicans' backward mentality blow my mind sometimes...
swag odie
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Sillyputty why didn't you reply to me in DC's topic about suicide and heaven?
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You can stop going back and forth. Clearly the Pope is a member of Team Raw and thangs ain't gonna change.
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Wrong, it's a mostly catholic point of view. Protestants are more nuanced on the matter.Originally Posted by debs 168
this is not solely a catholic view. do people realize this..?
everyone is aware that this is a christian viewpoint no matter the denomination, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_views_on_birth_control
sillyputty
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I used to hold this "tax the church" mentality like you...but as much as I want to bleed religious institutions dry (remember charity and service to others is not monopolized by religion)... it would be a REALLY bad idea.
I saved some comments that explain this a little more succinctly and makes a good case for NOT taxing churches. It would have the opposite effect. It explains it a little better than I can right now but yeah, the case for taxing churches is not a good idea, ultimately.
If you tax religion, you legitimize their investment in the state. Those ties do not need to be strengthened, nor do we want them to be. Taxes are not merely a "punishment." They are also part of a greater socioeconomic engagement between taxpayers and the state. Once you're a taxpayer, you can legitimately complain about policy because you're paying for the government to run. Suddenly it's no longer, "The church believes in life, and the sanctity of marriage." It's: "Congressman X, we are taxpayers and we don't like your policy on abortion and gay marriage. You must change them or we will discourage our parishioners from voting explicitly and specifically for you.
For the record, OP made absolutely 0 references to what kind of tax is preferred (property, income, etc), only that "It's time to tax religion." Furthermore, just because "The church is already involved in politics" doesn't mean that we should tax them. That would in no ways make them less involved in politics - it would only make them more involved and make them work harder to push their policy agendas. Also, there is a difference between making a profit and a for-profit institution. Most churches are, I believe, categorically not-for-profit. (I'd be interested to see sources that challenge this if that were the case, however.)
Many of you mentioned taxation taking away church money that they use for lobbying. I think there is something to be said for the indirectness of the lobbying that the church presently does that appeals to me. And I think the directness would just cut out the middle man so they could run ads and things on their own. Some people would be offended by a more direct path and others would exalt it. The trouble is that I think more religious folks would get on board if you had direct and outright political criticism coming from churches to specific leaders. Of course they can criticize policies, but its the politicians' pockets we want their hands out of. There are just better ways to get them out. You might disagree, and that's fine. We can't know unless it happens. Which brings me to my next point.
It's not going to happen. With the very commonly accepted ground of "separation of Church and State" in the US, this is very unlikely to happen. You might be able to get conciliatory things, like property taxes, but you will be very unlikely to get full, regular taxation of religious groups the way we tax other groups. I admire the fervor of some on here and I detest that of others, but I don't think given what has been discussed here that a movement to start taxing churches would be altogether bad. It would shake things up, but ultimately I think it would be a waste of time when we could spend our time doing more important things, like getting the word out about scientific enlightenment, secular humanism, etc.
This is a ridiculous assumption.Originally Posted by debs 168
this is not solely a catholic view. do people realize this..?
everyone is aware that this is a christian viewpoint no matter the denomination, right?
Different sects of the same religion are founded on these minor differences in ideology, so NO, not every christian denomination is rooted in the SAME principles.
...its ok to make points, without making things up. I don't even understand how you thought this was remotely accurate
i completely understand what you're saying and how you feel. think to yourself what God would want and do. would God say, only the people that believe in me or would God say EVERYONE?
and christianity is not politically correct. it shouldn't be. again, just because secularism evolves doesn't mean that the church should bend its stance on things to accept said secularism.
*shrugs*
Again, I agree with you...
I don't want to change what the church says. Its a private organization and they're free to do and say what they want.
Thats why they should just maintain their (in my eyes) ******ed stance on every scientific and socially progressive issue and die off...
...just like the Natural Selection it took them 100+ years to accept existed
No idea what you're talking about. Whats up?
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Pretty easy to frame this issue but progressives don't know how to do anything. They say it's a "war on religion." Well then we are supposed to rebrand their efforts as a "War on Women." But all I see is compromise. 98% of Catholic women use contraception. These institutions take in federal dollars every year.
sillyputty
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This is very true.
Liberals are awful at organizing. I think its the sheer aggression of conservatives that allows them to be more passionate about their causes and support their own.
Also, I think its easier to be a conservative than a liberal...
A liberal is anyone who is NOT a conservative these days...and we're all conservative and liberal about particular things. Fear is the best motivator behind organizing people and conservaties are MASTERS of this stuff.
This is very true.
Liberals are awful at organizing. I think its the sheer aggression of conservatives that allows them to be more passionate about their causes and support their own.
Also, I think its easier to be a conservative than a liberal...
A liberal is anyone who is NOT a conservative these days...and we're all conservative and liberal about particular things. Fear is the best motivator behind organizing people and conservaties are MASTERS of this stuff.
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If a religion wants to be taken seriously they cant just change up their rules
understandable
understandable
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True.
Another reason from strictly a political standpoint I am hearing:
Obama is targeting those Catholic hospitals that will not turn down patients regardless of insurance policy etc. etc. By enacting this rule Obama can go and shut down those same Catholic churches for not giving abortions because it is against their faith. Thus pushing forth Obamacare draining even more of the tax dollars which btw aren't even paid by 50% of Americans. Hmmmmmmmm....
Are you paying taxes?