DELETE

[freeze]

because when dinosaurs were alive the world was uninhabitable for modern man. the conditions that allowed an enormous coldblooded creature to live and prosper is no place for us. and least in the part of the world they were in. and it wouldn't have aided the goal in writing about a bunch of bones. depending on if you want to roll with the scientific/biological approach.


if not, well, what purpose would it have served? I agree, these massive creatures would surely have a place in the book if moses had known of them. but according to the book, the world is only about 4.5 thousand years old. According to science, it's roughly 4.5 billion years old. It's all up for arguement. of course in order for some of the ideas in my second idea to work, you have to take into account some science and reasoning.



on a side note, I'm a big believer in the lord, but i definitely find science interesting, and i'm open minded to all ideas. I love theological discussions.

Lets get this clear right now.

Its NOT up for argument. 

One of those arguments is more accurate than the other. Period.

If there is a hang-up on an issue that conflicts with religion, will you go with the answer provided by a scientific definition or will you go with the one in the bible? 

On top of that, if you're willing to accept a scientific answer over a religious one, why do you cling to what you value as inerrantly religiously based in the first place? 

sure it is. Not everything is in X's & O's friend. As far as everything we know and believe, either through faith, or science, there falls grey areas. that's where arguments come in. Science says the lord didn't create existence, but instead the big bang caused all of the energy that allowed for life to form. Well, what caused the big bang, i'm sure you'll answer that, but make sure you don't speak in absolutes, nobody was there, so it's ALL theory. Theories can be wrong. I believe what I believe, not because I need something to believe in, I want to believe in him. I want to believe there is a supreme force out there. If there isn't oh well, it'll be just like finding out Santa was a cold blooded lie. you just move on. no big deal. I believe because I feel that I've seen miracles happen first hand. Sure to the science community, the stars probably just lined up right and a string of coincidences ensued that forever warped the strand of time that we exist in, in my favor, but I'd like to think that that is pretty far fetched to inherently happen ALL of the time. It's a lot easier for my mind to wrap around a omnipotent being that just decides to show me favor at his whim.

Science can answer a lot, I'll give you that, no problem, but if you ask ANY scientist, ANYWHERE, a question they do not know, or has not widely been proven, or how something happened, or why, the response to that, most assuredly is "It just is...". oh ok.

 

[futuremd]

If someone asks you "Hey why aren't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible"

and your response is: "Well angels...demons...chains...reptiles...random bible verses..."

And the original person says: "OK that may be your answer, but why should I believe you?"

Then yeah, we're seeing why we should believe you over everyone else.

Just posting what you believe doesn't validate it any more than my thoughts on unicorn migration through the tropics of Tolken's Middle-Earth. 

It does me no good to say "evolution is true." I have to PROVE why evolution through natural selection is true and is the best answer. 

You're not establishing why anyone should take you seriously other than the fact that you seem to have some thoughts on a book. 

You're right.

Now why do YOU want me to give a reason.

Because I don't believe you nor do I see a reason to. You haven't made a case for your argument.

OP asked a serious question and wanted a serious answer. If you want him to believe you or at least adopt a viewpoint similar to yours, because you feel its the right one of course, then why would you not go through lengths to establish why what you think is true, real, or valid? 

I don't care what you believe or how you believe it, I just want the truth. Period. 

If this is your serious response to a serious question, then I see no need to take your opinion seriously, especially if you're not going to at least provide examples of why or how you are justified in asserting it. 

No idea, thought, or belief is free from criticism so if what you're asserting doesn't stand up then its either that you do a poor job of representing the entity, or the argument itself is poor.

 

[bme88]

Bible is written by man.

Christianity is based on faith.

 

[futuremd]

because when dinosaurs were alive the world was uninhabitable for modern man. the conditions that allowed an enormous coldblooded creature to live and prosper is no place for us. and least in the part of the world they were in. and it wouldn't have aided the goal in writing about a bunch of bones. depending on if you want to roll with the scientific/biological approach.


if not, well, what purpose would it have served? I agree, these massive creatures would surely have a place in the book if moses had known of them. but according to the book, the world is only about 4.5 thousand years old. According to science, it's roughly 4.5 billion years old. It's all up for arguement. of course in order for some of the ideas in my second idea to work, you have to take into account some science and reasoning.



on a side note, I'm a big believer in the lord, but i definitely find science interesting, and i'm open minded to all ideas. I love theological discussions.

Lets get this clear right now.

Its NOT up for argument. 

One of those arguments is more accurate than the other. Period.

If there is a hang-up on an issue that conflicts with religion, will you go with the answer provided by a scientific definition or will you go with the one in the bible? 

On top of that, if you're willing to accept a scientific answer over a religious one, why do you cling to what you value as inerrantly religiously based in the first place? 

sure it is. Not everything is in X's & O's friend. As far as everything we know and believe, either through faith, or science, there falls grey areas. 

Science doesn't claim to know everything. Its not a "thing" its a process. Its a method used to describe the undertaking of collecting evidence, observations, and testing them to a reliable degree of certainty to build a model.

If the model is wrong, then we start over again. 

that's where arguments come in.

No. 

False. This doesn't even mean what you think it means. 

 Science says the lord didn't create existence, but instead the big bang caused all of the energy that allowed for life to form.

Science doesn't say the lord DIDNT do something.

You can't prove a negative. 

It merely says that something ELSE happened and asserts its evidence to THAT OTHER CONCLUSION. 

Science doesn't disprove religion. It doesn't have a stance on religion. It merely attempts to answer questions with no respect to any existing dogma.

Well, what caused the big bang, i'm sure you'll answer that, but make sure you don't speak in absolutes, nobody was there, so it's ALL theory.

Here is the most succinct explanation I can find on the current understanding.

Theories can be wrong.

So? That doesn't validate clinging to beliefs that havent been vetted through evidence and observations.

I believe what I believe, not because I need something to believe in, I want to believe in him.

So you believe its true because you want it to be true, not because you actually can prove it.

Well I want to be super tall and super rich too, so that must be true too. Problem solved!

 I want to believe there is a supreme force out there.

I also want to believe I'll discover oil in my backyard. 

 If there isn't oh well, it'll be just like finding out Santa was a cold blooded lie.

Pascal's wager huh? 

That fails too.

Nevermind the title of the video, focus on the argument. 

 you just move on. no big deal. I believe because I feel that I've seen miracles happen first hand.

What is a miracle?

A statistical rarity? Because thats what statistics ARE in the first place.

Miracles can't happen because you're assuming that YOU KNOW they would have NEVER happened so the fact that they DID happen means they aren't miracles. 

Also, an unexplainable event can't be a miracle either. Not having an explanation for something doesn't mean "god did it."

 Sure to the science community, the stars probably just lined up right and a string of coincidences ensued that forever warped the strand of time that we exist in, in my favor, but I'd like to think that that is pretty far fetched to inherently happen ALL of the time.

Existence is not teleological. 

Of course you're making it sound like you are aware of all of the processes at play and all possible configurations EVER. 

It doesn't matter what you think is unreasonable, rather you should focus on what actually IS. 

 It's a lot easier for my mind to wrap around a omnipotent being that just decides to show me favor at his whim.

Thank Horus for helping you find your car keys, but feeding starving kids? Thats lame. 

Science can answer a lot, I'll give you that, no problem, but if you ask ANY scientist, ANYWHERE, a question they do not know, or has not widely been proven, or how something happened, or why, the response to that, most assuredly is "It just is...". oh ok.

No. The answer actually is: "I don't know, but I will try and find out"

 

[futuremd]

Bible is written by man.

Christianity is based on faith.

And where does christianity get its tenets?

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

[COLOR=#red]You know what sucks even more for me??? That my educational background is invested heavily in science and the formation and physical phenomena of the planet earth. So on one side my religion of choice Christianity says one thing, but yet what I learned in my field has a somewhat different interpretation. But the religious side requires I believe because of faith, which causes a level of dissonance because I have been taught and somewhat believe in the scientific method. Dang, why couldn't I have been a business major [/COLOR]

 

[futuremd]

You know what sucks even more for me??? That my educational background is invested heavily in science and the formation and physical phenomena of the planet earth. So on one side my religion of choice Christianity says one thing, but yet what I learned in my field has a somewhat different interpretation. But the religious side requires I believe because of faith, which causes a level of dissonance because I have been taught and somewhat believe in the scientific method. Dang, why couldn't I have been a business major

It really IS cognitive dissonance though. Thats the sad part.

Like I went to school with biology majors who believed in creationism. I had friends who were anthropology majors who didn't believe in evolution. I had friends who were econ majors who thought poor people was just apart of "gods will." 

Everything you know, as a military man, is at the forefront of our understanding of science and physical phenomena, yet and still you cling to a view of the world that constantly gets invalidated with every critical thought. 

Religion doesn't have any answers when taken seriously. Thats a conclusion very few people are scared to approach because they've been told not to question anything.

Indoctrination is real and often times it happens so young that many others don't even consider the possibility that you never had a chance to learn anything different. 

Faith is not an excuse and it never was. Faith is whats left when you don't have an answer to something. You just give up on using reason and cling to it only because you want to. I don't respect "faith." Its a meaningless term and a method of evasion from the reality of a situation. Its nothing more than wishful, magical thinking. 

 

[retro23j]

Because I don't believe you nor do I see a reason to. You haven't made a case for your argument.

So if I had entertained your inquiry, you possibly would have seen a reason to believe me? Let's look a few posts down and see.

OP asked a serious question and wanted a serious answer. If you want him to believe you or at least adopt a viewpoint similar to yours, because you feel its the right one of course, then why would you not go through lengths to establish why what you think is true, real, or valid? 

OP asked and got some serious answers. You're asking for something else and are not OP. If he want's to believe then HE will keep asking for more. That's when I'll go through lengths to establish why I think something is true. I never "claimed" that what I said was true anyway. I DON'T know for sure but we can discuss different ideas about it and maybe see similarities.

I don't care what you believe or how you believe it, I just want the truth. Period. 

Then why ask me why I believe if you don't care about my belief?

None of this makes sense.

If this is your serious response to a serious question, then I see no need to take your opinion seriously, especially if you're not going to at least provide examples of why or how you are justified in asserting it. 

You've established that you don't care so why would this concern or move me?

No idea, thought, or belief is free from criticism so if what you're asserting doesn't stand up then its either that you do a poor job of representing the entity, or the argument itself is poor.

Somewhat agree.

So are you questioning me ONLY to criticize my reasons and give your reasons for it and why YOU don't/won't believe? Does that even make sense? 

Look at what you wanted this to turn into. Questioning belief. Not belief on just dinosaurs either. Belief CAN be questioned and criticized but tell me why I should accept your questions or criticism when you won't accept or care for my answer? I won't share my reasons on anything with you if you're just looking to criticize and reel someone in with a false curiosity for what you've already studied.

 

[retro23j]

You know what sucks even more for me??? That my educational background is invested heavily in science and the formation and physical phenomena of the planet earth. So on one side my religion of choice Christianity says one thing, but yet what I learned in my field has a somewhat different interpretation. But the religious side requires I believe because of faith, which causes a level of dissonance because I have been taught and somewhat believe in the scientific method. Dang, why couldn't I have been a business major

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Silly, can you give me a cliff notes version of the Lawrence Krauss argument you posted above?

 

[bme88]

And where does christianity get its tenets?

 from the bible, just as any religion is based on faith of that religions beliefs...but what i ment by the bible being written by man is that you cant take it to be accurate/complete or literal as stated before more as a guide for those who believe in christianity.

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

It really IS cognitive dissonance though. Thats the sad part.

Like I went to school with biology majors who believed in creationism. I had friends who were anthropology majors who didn't believe in evolution. I had friends who were econ majors who thought poor people was just apart of "gods will." 

Everything you know, as a military man, is at the forefront of our understanding of science and physical phenomena, yet and still you cling to a view of the world that constantly gets invalidated with every critical thought. 

Religion doesn't have any answers when taken seriously. Thats a conclusion very few people are scared to approach because they've been told not to question anything.

Indoctrination is real and often times it happens so young that many others don't even consider the possibility that you never had a chance to learn anything different. 

Faith is not an excuse and it never was. Faith is whats left when you don't have an answer to something. You just give up on using reason and cling to it only because you want to. I don't respect "faith." Its a meaningless term and a method of evasion from the reality of a situation. Its nothing more than wishful, magical thinking. 

[COLOR=#red]
Future, I understand the finely pixelated characters that you are typing. I really do. I've always been the type to question, and honestly I have been known to fall in and out of "the faith". You get scared into thinking that questioning is the same as being blasphemous...so you get back into line and follow as you've been taught...then the questions pop up again. I spoke with my wife about this last night and she responded by saying "Goodnight Honey...give me a kiss" [/COLOR]

 

[futuremd]

Because I don't believe you nor do I see a reason to. You haven't made a case for your argument.

So if I had entertained your inquiry, you possibly would have seen a reason to believe me? Let's look a few posts down and see.

Yes, if your reasons made it possible for me to believe you in the first place.

Merely having an opinion doesn't make it any more reasonable or valid.
You didn't establish why you thought something was true.

If you don't even know if its true, then why are you making conjectures and accepting them as fact?

You clearly felt like this was the right answer and now you're backtracking to make it seem like you weren't saying that at all. You said you thought they were "serious answers"

So what are they?

I don't care what you believe or how you believe it, I just want the truth. Period. 

Then why ask me why I believe if you don't care about my belief?

Son, you're using the bible to say that dinosaurs existed in the bible but when I ask you how you know that, then you claim you're being attacked.

 Belief CAN be questioned and criticized but tell me why I should accept your questions or criticism when you won't accept or care for my answer?

I have proof and evidence. 

You don't. 

I can establish each claim I make. 

You can't. 

I won't share my reasons on anything with you if you're just looking to criticize and reel someone in with a false curiosity for what you've already studied.

You're taking an unnecessary offense. I don't see a reason to believe you about anything you're saying and you're not giving anyone a reason to do so.

 

[futuremd]

Silly, can you give me a cliff notes version of the Lawrence Krauss argument you posted above?

Unless you'd prefer to read the book, no. Just watch the video when you have time. 

 

[futuremd]

It really IS cognitive dissonance though. Thats the sad part.

Like I went to school with biology majors who believed in creationism. I had friends who were anthropology majors who didn't believe in evolution. I had friends who were econ majors who thought poor people was just apart of "gods will." 

Everything you know, as a military man, is at the forefront of our understanding of science and physical phenomena, yet and still you cling to a view of the world that constantly gets invalidated with every critical thought. 

Religion doesn't have any answers when taken seriously. Thats a conclusion very few people are scared to approach because they've been told not to question anything.

Indoctrination is real and often times it happens so young that many others don't even consider the possibility that you never had a chance to learn anything different. 

Faith is not an excuse and it never was. Faith is whats left when you don't have an answer to something. You just give up on using reason and cling to it only because you want to. I don't respect "faith." Its a meaningless term and a method of evasion from the reality of a situation. Its nothing more than wishful, magical thinking. 

Future, I understand the finely pixelated characters that you are typing. I really do. I've always been the type to question, and honestly I have been known to fall in and out of "the faith". You get scared into thinking that questioning is the same as being blasphemous...so you get back into line and follow as you've been taught...then the questions pop up again. I spoke with my wife about this last night and she responded by saying "Goodnight Honey...give me a kiss"

Nietzsche was right when he finally said that "god was dead and we killed him." Thats why Nietzsche was so groundbreaking...and depressing (any recovering nihilists out there? 

)

We know too much as a society. 

Everything we said that god was and could do has since been disproven, debunked, or rationalized away.

There is no viable reason to believe in anything in any religious context in the modern world with as much as we know and are continuing to learn. 

Our own curiosity and pursuit of knowledge killed the very thing we made up to answer difficult questions. 

You're exactly right about the blasphemy thing. Its a form of control. Every major religion tells you not to question or to challenge those who are in charge of establishing the religion. Thats how they keep people from ever questioning things.

You don't want to go to HELL do you? 

 

[DCAllAfrican]

DO I need to watch the video? Will I miss anything if I convert it to an MP3

 

[futuremd]

DO I need to watch the video? Will I miss anything if I convert it to an MP3

You don't need to DO anything if you don't want to.

There are graphs and pictures that might aid your understanding in a way that a solely audio version may not capture. 

Its up to you. 

 

[futuremd]

And where does christianity get its tenets?

 from the bible, just as any religion is based on faith of that religions beliefs...but what i ment by the bible being written by man is that you cant take it to be accurate/complete or literal as stated before more as a guide for those who believe in christianity.

So if the source of christianity is the bible...but you said you can't trust the bible to be "accurate/complete or literal"...then how do you trust christianity? 

 

[slab_diaz]

I think I qualify as an apologist, and I'm VERY young in my journey Of faith but I look at it like this. There is no mention of dinosaurs because there doesn't need to be any mention of dinosaurs. If you Look at the Bible as a reference for the way god wants you to behave and not as a comprehensive history of the planet, it may put your mind at ease. The addition of dinosaurs doesn't do anything to advance God's will or spread the message.

good point, im also just starting in my journey of faith, i was raised as a catholic, but only now do i realize
that although some people, including me, may want to look for facts in the bible, the most important thing
now is that I understand the lessons that are written in it.

to be religious not just on belief, but to do it as a lifestyle.

 

[the hater boxden]

Faith is not an excuse and it never was. Faith is whats left when you don't have an answer to something. You just give up on using reason and cling to it only because you want to. I don't respect "faith." Its a meaningless term and a method of evasion from the reality of a situation. Its nothing more than wishful, magical thinking. 

 

[retro23j]

 

I really have no problem with what you typed out. It would be an awesome candy trail I'd follow into the response you're looking for if you're motive wasn't in clear view as well.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

You don't need to DO anything if you don't want to.

There are graphs and pictures that might aid your understanding in a way that a solely audio version may not capture. 

Its up to you. 

Thanks SIlly.....

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

[COLOR=#red]I have noticed in the South especially the insane level of reverence given to the Reverend (see what I did there) and Pastors of these churches which ultimately leads to an incredible amount of power bestowed upon these men...which USUALLY eventually gets to their heads and ultimately corrupts them. I mean what other profession requires so little but brings so many rewards? If you have a quicksilver tongue, charisma, and wit then you can become a Pastor. Then you can have a loyal audience in which you can influence because you have the word of God to assist you.

I was going to marry my H.S. sweetheart that I reconnected with some years ago, but she was the "Pastor said" type. Every other word that came out of her mouth was "Pastor said". She even worked for his church organization. Well her Pastor was Eddie Long, and just a few years later he was exposed for being a homo-sexual pedophile. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and the church environment is such an enabling environment for such corruption. Things like this and many others is what confuses me about the faith. I question the need for church, I do however believe in a personal spirituality, and I haven't dismissed my belief in God...though sometimes I wonder if I'm just hedging my bets in case Heaven and Hell is a true concept. Wow, I guess I am one confused dude!!![/COLOR]

 

[futuremd]

 

I really have no problem with what you typed out. It would be an awesome candy trail I'd follow into the response you're looking for if you're motive wasn't in clear view as well.

I don't have a motive.

I'm just asking you to say why you claim to assert what you believe as a reasonable answer.

You still haven't answered that inquiry.

As of yet, you've taken any inquiry into the reasoning behind your conclusions as an attack on you instead of a chance for you to clarify the points of your argument.

Its not my job to defend your claims for you. If your arguments don't stand up then its no one else's fault but your own. 

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Christianity itself predates the Bible by hundreds of years, so I'm pretty sure believing in the Bible is not a requirement for being Christian.

christianity comes after the old testament, so unless you're referring to the many religions that the bible and christianity obviously borrowed from, i have no idea what you're talking about.