Had A Chance To Listen To A Panel Of Native Americans Speak

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by GrimlocK

yea i'm all for new theories on past subjects but this whole africans being in America before the pilgrims is new to me...any proof?

Look at the facial structures of old Mayan and Aztec pieces. That nose doesn't look like a man of color to you?

Some Ancient Aztec and Mayan statues and art didn't look human at all, all we can do is speculate----

I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

 

[Gill Baka Esq. LLC.]

Originally Posted by sillyputty


I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

cuz its the truth...shots fired.

And DC if your going just by nose structure thats a pretty weak rebuttal...i've seen central americans with that nose structure.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

And I am pretty sure those Central Americans have some sort of African Blood in them somewhere down the line.

That isn't my only rebuttal, I mean how can I prove it exactly? We can't prove history. Not sure what you are expecting me to say honestly.

 

[ill legal operation]

Originally Posted by GrimlocK

yea i'm all for new theories on past subjects but this whole africans being in America before the pilgrims is new to me...any proof?

 

[rexanglorum]

sillyputty wrote:

---

I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 



Considering how racially charged most discussions, about almost anything involving the social sciences, can be, I am surprised that more people do not take offense to all of these alien theories.

When "scholars," get on the channel that now goes by the name "History," they are implying that Africans could not actually build the Pyramids themselves and that Meso Americans not only could not build their Pyramids but had to be shown everything that they knew about mathematics, astronomy and even farming.

The implication behind ever "Aliens' built it theory," is that the actual people in that society never accomplished anything important on their own. In most cases, it seems like the Aliens theory gets applied most often to Egypt and the Andean and Meso American cultures and after that, it gets applied to the Middle East and than to Polynesia. very rarely do these "scholars" speculate that the European Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment or Industrialization were caused by Alien intervention.
  

 

[papageorgeo510]

Good read, Thanks OP

 

[tkthafm]

Just to comment on the psuedo-scientific theories (myths) about the Olmec/African connection:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=73

For those who don't want to read the entire thing:

There is hardly a claim in any of Van Sertima's writings that can be supported by the evidence found in the archaeological, botanical, linguistic, or historical record. He employs a number of tactics commonly used by pseudoscientists (Cole 1980; Radner and Radner 1982:27-52; Ortiz de Montellano 1995; Williams 198, including an almost exclusive use of outdated secondary sources and a reliance on the pseudoscientific writing of others. One finds very few references to primary sources, to archaeological site reports, or to up-to-date publications by scholars who have actually done original research or who have dug in the field. One might get the impression that there had been no research in Mesoamerica since 1920. He claims linguistic and cultural influences between peoples and cultures that existed thousands of years apart without any evidence of an intermediate transmitting culture. Chronologies and sequences are completely disregarded; for example, the use of purple in Mixtec codices of the 15th century A.D. is said to prove that Egyptians brought Tyrian purple to the Olmecs in 800 B.C. (Van Sertima 1995:80). The chronology offered produces contradictions to the arguments he advances. If Egyptians contacted the Olmecs around 1200 B.C. in accordance with Jairazbhoy's chronology and with the carving of the colossal heads, there is a problem with claiming that pyramids were imported, since none had been built in Egypt for years. If instead the time of contact is said to be 700 B.C., in agreement with the renewal of pyramid building in Nubia, there is the problem of the colossal "portrait" heads' having been carved hundreds of years prior to the supposed contact. Van Sertima uses photographs to support racial stereotypes in the portrayal of sculptured heads and other types of figurative art, and his work substitutes assertion and scenarios for evidence. 

For the most part, the Afrocentrists and the other cultural nationalists have heartily endorsed Van Sertima's thesis despite its obvious weaknesses in methodology and evidence. Although they have called for an Afrocentric history that is accurate and well-intentioned, they seem to be more concerned with the need to raise the "self-esteem" of African-Americans, regardless of the impact on other groups. [34] By endorsing Van Sertima's writings, the Afrocentrists and cultural nationalists have accepted a hegemonic and racialist view of pre-Columbian America that is completely lacking in historical accuracy. They have also accepted a theory and a methodological approach that grossly distort the historical record at the expense of Native Americans. Despite vehement protestations to the contrary, Van Sertima has, in effect, trampled on the self-respect or self-esteem of Native Americans by minimizing their role as actors in their own history, denigrating their cultures, [35] and usurping their contributions to the development of world civilizations.

The above is just one very well written published article that thoroughly debunks this myth.

An excerpt from a recent work by Kenneth Feder below:

Though there is no controversy among Mesoamericanists about the heads, Ivan van Sertima maintains that the faces depicted in the Sculptures are all African. He bases this claim on three facts: 

1. The stone used to sculpt the heads in black. 

2. The noses of the heads are broad and flat. 

3. The lips of the sculpted faces are broad and thick.

In other words, on the basis of little more than eyeballing the sculptures, van Sertima concludes that the Olmec rulers were migrants from Africa and takes this to mean that the earliest civilization in Mesoamerica was inspired by pre-Columbian African visitors and settlers of the New World. 

To be fair, Van Sertima is not the first scholar to note a similarity between the faces depicted on the Olmec heads (and in other Olmec representation of human faces) and those of people of African origin. For example, when the first of the Olmec heads was discovered and discussed in 1869, Jose Melgar stated, "That which most impressed me was the Ethiopic type which it represents; I reflected that indubitably there had been negroes in this land" (as translated by archaeologist Christopher Pool [2007, 35]).

Melgar’s assertion and van Sertima's conclusion are based on little of evidentiary value. The black color of the sculptures is meaningless; black is the color of the readily available, durable volcanic stone that abounds in Olmec territory, and it bears little resemblance to the actual skin color of the people of African descent. Further, not all of the raw material actually was black; at least one of the heads is made from a white raw material. Beyond this, if we are going to reply on morphological features to determine the continent of origin of the models for the sculptures, it must be pointed out that the heads show flat facial profiles, similar to the profiles of Native Americans and quite different from the commonly prognathous profile (the lower face thrust out from the upper) of people of African descent. Finally, a close examination of the sculptures shows what appears to be a skin fold in the eyelids, seeming to depict the epicanthic fold typical of Asian and New World native people.

There is no evidence for the presence of African migrants to the New World before Columbus. No artifacts have been found whose raw material source can be traced to Africa; no artifacts whose style could come only from a pre-Columbian African source have been found in the New World; and finally, no skeletal remains have been found, dating to a pre-Columbian context, with DNA proving an African source. The civilizations of the New World, including those of Mesoamerica and South America, exhibit archaeological evidence for a long sequence of indigenous development and no evidence for inspiration outside of the New World. The Olmec heads were the product of indigenous skills in quarrying, transportation, and sculpting, as well as the ability to conscript and organize labor for monumental undertakings. The Olmec heads provide no support for hypotheses of the presence of Africans or Europeans, or recent Asian migrants to the New World.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by GrimlocK

Originally Posted by sillyputty


I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

cuz its the truth...shots fired.

And DC if your going just by nose structure thats a pretty weak rebuttal...i've seen central americans with that nose structure.

What exactly is "true" here?
When people say "its aliens/god" all they're doing is making a guess that they know what it is. They really aren't even THAT SURE themselves. Lets be honest. Putting in "aliens" or "god" as the answer doesn't go very far. You've seen or witnessed something that occured and since you cant come up with a better explanation you go with aliens/god. You haven't even really proved anything. Using something that isn't proven to substantiate for ANOTHER conclusion makes it even MORE of a weak argument.  Lets not get too carried away here because this isn't the topic of the thread. 

That being said, we gave you sources and names to look into that offered competing theories...something you asked for. These aren't glossed over specs in text; these are well researched and evidentially supported possibilities. 

Don't ask for evidence and sources of information and act brand new when you get it. 

Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

sillyputty wrote:

---

I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

Considering how racially charged most discussions, about almost anything involving the social sciences, can be, I am surprised that more people do not take offense to all of these alien theories.

When "scholars," get on the channel that now goes by the name "History," they are implying that Africans could not actually build the Pyramids themselves and that Meso Americans not only could not build their Pyramids but had to be shown everything that they knew about mathematics, astronomy and even farming.

The implication behind ever "Aliens' built it theory," is that the actual people in that society never accomplished anything important on their own. In most cases, it seems like the Aliens theory gets applied most often to Egypt and the Andean and Meso American cultures and after that, it gets applied to the Middle East and than to Polynesia. very rarely do these "scholars" speculate that the European Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment or Industrialization were caused by Alien intervention.


Its really and truly a slap in the face. I never understand it. 
I'm not denying the existence of Aliens...In as much that I'm not supporting their existence either. I can't prove that they exist so at the end of the day its just a GUESS.

But this sort of cultural and relativist IGNORANCE really baffles my mind. Its like if we didn't do something then all of a sudden people that came before us were less intelligent or capable. 

I'm sure it would be a gut check to hear people say that it was impossible for us to do what we currently do, thousands of years from now. 

 

[ggarvinxx3]

this thread

<3 Knowledge

 

[thorrocksjs]

Thread is pretty good can anybody recommend some books on the indigenous peoples of the Americas right now I'm reading guns steel and germs along with it's sequel collapse.

 

[goldenchild9]

There exists definite historic evidence that between 1307 and 1312 AD, West African Mandinga fleets have sailed to America and later have also returned to Africa. In 1324 AD, the famous Mandinga emperor of Mali, Mansa Kankan Musa I on his way to Mecca, stopped over at Cairo, and was interviewed by the eminent 14th century Islamic historian, Al-Umars, to whom the emperor had related his rise to "power" and that "his predecessors had launched two expeditions from West Africa to discover the limits of the Atlantic Ocean". (New African, ibid.)

Al-Umars wrote: "I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ... 'We are from a house that transmits power by heritage ... the ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighboring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had about 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years.

He told those who commanded them, return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away ... Finally, a sole ship reappeared, We asked the captain about their adventure.'"

He told the Sultan about their long voyage and how finally they entered something like a river with violent currents. He was last in the row, and saw how the other ships disappeared. He returned, to tell his story. However, "the emperor did not want to believe him, He equipped about 2000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others. ..."

Please read that.




And a white man (your gods) Thor Heyerdahl, attempting to recreate these ancient travels, got in tradtional African Reed Boats and rode the currents to Americas several times. But of course not 1 single black person over the span of thousands of years and various genius hegemonic African Empires would have ever thought of doing anything like that. *End of sarcasm*




Read up on the Ra Expeditions/Voyages.

 

[tkthafm]

Source ?

Your excerpt begins by stating that there is "definite evidence" then goes on to give a story without any evidence; that doesn't even confirm that America was ever reached.

The difference between these theories and the "white man" "theories" is simple: evidence.
EDIT: It looks like the evidence I posted (which already shreds through all the 'evidences'/'links' people claim to exist will be ignored in favor of clinging to the feel-good mythological babble. 

 

[wr]

There strong evidence of cultural continuity between African and mesoamerican pre Columbian cultures. They do not practice the same rituals, build the same structures that point to the same stars and many more striking similarities and not have a common line of communication. To refute these facts is as bad as making imperial rhetoric truth against the evidence being find yearly at the location s that cause another revision of history to be written yearly and more and more frequently as science honest its tools of research.

 

[stonedface]

Good read DC. The part about those boats being filled with sick people sounds about right. White people throughout time have always been invading other peoples and destroying literally everything. When you look at wars, the side who had something to gain, or gained something in the end, is the one who starts the wars.

I'm not the least bit surprised that there were Africans in America before white people came. There's proof that Asians we're also here before the white man, they just don't teach you this kind of stuff in school.

 

[thorrocksjs]

If u look closely at the Olmec statue you can see that his nose is broken or mashed in from sports,warfare etc. The nose is broken at the bridge if you watched the UFC fight last saturday you would have saw wander lei silva ( War wandy) crush Cung Le's nose in and it looked vet similar in shape and condition to the Olmec statue. My theory is that they were tribute statues to athletes and warriors

 

[wr]

Mayans

 

[goldenchild9]

Watch those videos and see the visual proof for yourself, then read those rebuttals by paid intellectuals, many of whom are affiliated with conservative think tanks, and you tell me what seems more feasible to you.

tkthafm you also need to do your research on those "rebuttals" before you post them as gospel.

Alexander Von Wuthenau, a white anthropologist and a foremost expert in pre-columbian south america, also definitively asserts the African presence in the Americas far before Columbus. However, those so called experts never attacked him in the 90's because he wasn't on the hitlists of the conservative think tanks that paid for the "afrocrentic" slander at that time. White Nationalists have great SEO skills, so don't just stop at the first few Google links and think you've unraveled a mystery. Dig a little deeper and do your own unbiased research, using the works of the experts who have been in the field for decades.

 

[tkthafm]

The pictures (that are then vaguely interpreted to fit whatever theory) are nice and all but do nothing to plug holes of not having any archaeological, botanical, linguistic, DNA or historical record as evidence.

Let's keep the discussion relevant to the issue of evidence. If Alexander Von Wuthenau happens to have some concrete (<- keyword here) evidence, please share it.

I'm well aware of attempts at suppressing achievements of non-whites but that doesn't mean all of the claims made by the other side are true either.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The pictures (that are then vaguely interpreted to fit whatever theory) are nice and all but do nothing to plug holes of not having any archaeological, botanical, linguistic, DNA or historical record as evidence.

Let's keep the discussion relevant to the issue of evidence. If Alexander Von Wuthenau happens to have some concrete (<- keyword here) evidence, please share it.

I'm well aware of attempts at suppressing achievements of non-whites but that doesn't mean all of the claims made by the other side are true either.

Oh...following our religious back and forth NOW evidence is important to you. 

  

The fact remains that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests west african involvement in central and south america as well as asian visitation.  

Are you willing to say that asians didn't have contact with the new world too? 

 

[tkthafm]

You ask for evidence and either:

A: someone tells you there is an overwhelming amount (conveniently not posting any)
B. gives you vague theories based on a statue or painting looking like another (already discussed in the article I posted)

and now C... trying to change the topic (to surprise: religion, where you also failed to provide evidence/ignored presented evidence)

I don't know guys, your position doesn't seem very strong to me.

 

[swag odie]

Posting for later learning and lulz

 

[wr]

I mean those are actual glyphs from Mayans temples. Seems like a decent primary source to me.

 

[buggz05]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by GrimlocK

Originally Posted by sillyputty


I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

cuz its the truth...shots fired.

And DC if your going just by nose structure thats a pretty weak rebuttal...i've seen central americans with that nose structure.

What exactly is "true" here?
When people say "its aliens/god" all they're doing is making a guess that they know what it is. They really aren't even THAT SURE themselves. Lets be honest. Putting in "aliens" or "god" as the answer doesn't go very far. You've seen or witnessed something that occured and since you cant come up with a better explanation you go with aliens/god. You haven't even really proved anything. Using something that isn't proven to substantiate for ANOTHER conclusion makes it even MORE of a weak argument.  Lets not get too carried away here because this isn't the topic of the thread. 

That being said, we gave you sources and names to look into that offered competing theories...something you asked for. These aren't glossed over specs in text; these are well researched and evidentially supported possibilities. 

Don't ask for evidence and sources of information and act brand new when you get it. 

Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

sillyputty wrote:

---

I love this answer.



Whenever we can't figure out how ancient people did something? It was aliens.




Whenever we can't figure out how modern people do something? Its god. 

Considering how racially charged most discussions, about almost anything involving the social sciences, can be, I am surprised that more people do not take offense to all of these alien theories.

When "scholars," get on the channel that now goes by the name "History," they are implying that Africans could not actually build the Pyramids themselves and that Meso Americans not only could not build their Pyramids but had to be shown everything that they knew about mathematics, astronomy and even farming.

The implication behind ever "Aliens' built it theory," is that the actual people in that society never accomplished anything important on their own. In most cases, it seems like the Aliens theory gets applied most often to Egypt and the Andean and Meso American cultures and after that, it gets applied to the Middle East and than to Polynesia. very rarely do these "scholars" speculate that the European Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment or Industrialization were caused by Alien intervention.

The microprocessor and its use in rockets to propel us to space. Solar energy, antigravity technology, free energy. The list goes on. Personally I think the prospect of egyptian/alien relations is a majorly positive one, as "evidenced" in their heiroglyphics and beliefs. To contrast, Americas rumored "relations" with alien lifeforms is not a positive one - full of kidnapping and experimenting on alien bodies, hijacking property and technology, and then using the knowledge to fuel wars and war technology instead of helping the people. It all comes back to the Native American views, that if there is alien life out there, we need to coexist.

Back to the original topic... I grew up in Oklahoma as a child. In school, they would tell the little native.am kids that they had African-american blood in them from when they would help free slaves. I always thought this odd that they would need to point this out. And I always wondered to exactly what extent did they help free slaves, to what extent that would warrant enough African blood in Native Americans, to point it out to their children. This was pretty much agreed upon by whites and n.a. ppl...as far as I know.

 

[tkthafm]

Some paintings looking like they show dark-skinned folks and a statue with a wide nose don't really prove anything and definitely don't explain the lack of all other concrete forms of evidence for the theory.

Let me quote again,

The black color of the sculptures is meaningless; black is the color of the readily available, durable volcanic stone that abounds in Olmec territory, and it bears little resemblance to the actual skin color of the people of African descent. Further, not all of the raw material actually was black; at least one of the heads is made from a white raw material. Beyond this, if we are going to reply on morphological features to determine the continent of origin of the models for the sculptures, it must be pointed out that the heads show flat facial profiles, similar to the profiles of Native Americans and quite different from the commonly prognathous profile (the lower face thrust out from the upper) of people of African descent. Finally, a close examination of the sculptures shows what appears to be a skin fold in the eyelids, seeming to depict the epicanthic fold typical of Asian and New World native people.

There is no evidence for the presence of African migrants to the New World before Columbus. No artifacts have been found whose raw material source can be traced to Africa; no artifacts whose style could come only from a pre-Columbian African source have been found in the New World; and finally, no skeletal remains have been found, dating to a pre-Columbian context, with DNA proving an African source. 

If a statue and a painting "looking like" Africans are all it takes to convince you, that's another thing. 

 

[goldenchild9]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The pictures (that are then vaguely interpreted to fit whatever theory) are nice and all but do nothing to plug holes of not having any archaeological, botanical, linguistic, DNA or historical record as evidence.

Let's keep the discussion relevant to the issue of evidence. If Alexander Von Wuthenau happens to have some concrete (<- keyword here) evidence, please share it.

I'm well aware of attempts at suppressing achievements of non-whites but that doesn't mean all of the claims made by the other side are true either.

History is written by the victors of war, you should know that. 
For instance, Viking/Norse visitation of North America is accepted and welcomed by many among the white intelligentsia. Eventhough "archaeological evidence in limited, there in no indication that the Norse significantly affected the Native population and there is a possibility that the few artifacts which are used as proof of this theory, might actually belong to the people who were always indigenous to the region."

But in the case of African presence in the Americas, the mountains (literally) of proof is attacked as being "afrocentric" and "pseudoscientific". 

Muslim historians, known as some of history's best, and official scribes of KINGS (world renown nobility of the era) write of their trips to Americas and it is inexplicably brushed off. Columbus and many other early European "explorers" write of Moorish and Western African travels and trade with the Americas it is brushed off. There is linguistic proof, archaeological proof, osteological proof and botanical proof. Yet all of this evidence is written off as pseudoscientifc and "Afrocentric"...while those writing off these expert explanations usually have ulterior motives, insert their own "mythical" theories (which are far more far-fetched and improbable), claim that they can't decipher the information themselves (Olmec scripts) and claim that the peoples have "mysteriously vanished", when there are millions of people that look phenotypically similar in close proximity of the civilizations in question.

Language




Some researchers claim that the Mesoamerican writing systems are related to African scripts. In the early 19th century, Constantine Samuel Rafinesque proposed that the Mayan inscriptions were probably related to the Libyco-Berber writing of Africa. Leo Wiener and others claim that various Olmec and Epi-Olmec symbols are similar to those found in the Vai script, in particular, the symbols on the Tuxtla Statuette, Teo Mask, Cascajal Block, and the celts in Offering 4 at La Venta.




Skeletal




Constance Irwin and Andrez Wiercinski have both reported that skeletal remains with African characteristics have been found in Mexico. Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that there are "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull.Wiercinski claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin.He supports this claim with cranial evidence from two Mesoamerican sites: Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas. Tlatilco is a site in theValley of Mexico. Although outside the Olmec heartland, Olmec influences appear in the architectural record. The crania were from the Pre-Classic period, contemporary with the Olmec. 




You have anthropologist and researchers from all over the globe supporting these theories but the "white nationalist" tint of American education still has to sprinkle everything with doubt and slander to keep a foothold on a perceived plateau of intellectual and historical superiority...and dudes like you fall for it or voluntarily buy into it to seem smart by proxy.

Dr. Clarence Weiant (1897-1986) wrote a letter to the New York Times supporting Van Sertima's work. Following his B.S. in anthropology in 1937 from Columbia University, Weiant worked in excavation of Olmec heads in Mexico in 1938, and then as an assistant archeologist in 1939 for the first National Geographic Society-Smithsonian Institutionexpedition to Tres Zapotes, Veracruz, where ceramics were discovered.Weiant's letter, published in May 1977 in the New York Times,asserted that Van Sertima's work was "a summary of six or seven years of meticulous research based upon archeology, egyptology, African history, oceanography, astronomy, botany, rare Arabic and Chinese manuscripts, the letters and journals of early American explorers and the observations of physical anthropologists...As one who has been immersed in Mexican archeology for some forty years, I am thoroughly convinced of the soundness of Van Sertima's conclusions.