IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[CP1708]

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001 Finals Game 2
28 points 20 rebounds 9 assists 8 blocks - 12/19fg 4/10ft

Can I use this to suggest anything significant that I want? Like maybe to suggest that he carried the team on his back? That he had no help? Oooh, ooh... can I use this game to suggest that he won the entire NBA Finals from that 1 game?

Or does that 1 game just mean... 1 game? Meaning that it doesn't bear an overall effect on the overall dynamic of a player?

Do you know how many meaningless players have 40 point games but are nowhere near the all time scoring list? Reason being: 1 game is just a game.
The reason almost everyone says Shaq was the main player back then isn't because he almost got a quadruple double one game; it's because he was the main guy, every game, and anyone watching those games tonight could tell. Yes, there were other dynamic players, Kobe being the most dynamic of all, but the entire defense of the other team was centered around the dominant force in the middle... and then their focus was on Kobe.

Isn't that the year Kobe went 48-45 back to back games on the road against the Kings then the Spurs?
Those two teams being the best we faced, after which Shaq called him the best player in the NBA?

*shrugs*

1 game is 1 game. He just has a ton of those 1 games I guess.

 

[CP1708]

The introvert volume shooter label is beyond stupid. Volume shooter that adds 5-6 rebounds AND assists per game while also being one of the best perimeter defenders does not equal volume shooter.

 

[OG44NJ]

Overrated in the sense that he's not better than Lebron or Duncan.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="CP"]Isn't that the year Kobe went 48-45 back to back games on the road against the Kings then the Spurs?
Those two teams being the best we faced, after which Shaq called him the best player in the NBA?

*shrugs*

1 game is 1 game. He just has a ton of those 1 games I guess.[/quote]Then why do folks in your camp keep mentioning the same games over and over again? That one game against the Pacers... the game against the Pistons that he stopped us from getting swept... I keep hearing the same ones.

and he's a 2 guard; he's supposed to score. he's a dynamic, flashy chucker... and he's also a very hard worker who has been very dedicated to his craft. 2 separate things. but what he is on the basketball court is, indeed, a chucker. he was supposed to score back then. And he did. A lot. By shooting a lot. what's the problem? That false?

People STILL say 'going Kobe out there' on basketball court. I've played pick up games and watched HS and college games in TN, KY, OH, WV, and IL... and I've heard people say 'going Kobe on 'em' regularly... ... ...


... ... ... and the phrase isn't used to talk about a guy who pulls mad rebounds and drops dimes like crazy.

 

[darthska]

also, Shaq calling him the greatest player in the NBA was Shaq being a good teammate. I'm not at all suggesting Shaq was lying, and probably meant it when he said it, but more importantly, he was saying that to backup his teammate... but don't use that as "Oh, see? Even Shaq said so."

Because if we're going to use the words of other people to build our arguments... I mean, Kobe himself has said recently that he is hard to play with.

he has always been an introvert, has always been a volume shooter, has always wanted to be the man, has always been insanely competitive and fierce and hard working... what part of any of that is false? that's him; I just described Kobe Bryant.

 

[CP1708]

The 01 playoffs at age 21 he went 29, 7 and 6 while playing lockdown D.

Aint just one game. It's a lot of games, but we keep getting thrown Shaq "games" so we refute with Kobe games. It's a pissing contest, and a stupid one at that.

 

[darthska]

I definitely agree that it's a pissing contest.

Also agree that it's a stupid one... because Shaq won those 3 finals MVPs, and Shaq was the dominant figure back then. It was plain as day.

Lakers record with Kobe and no Shaq: losing record

Lakers record with Shaq and no Kobe: winning record

Lakers as a franchise having to rely on just Shaq, no Kobe and no Phil: well this obviously never happened, so we can't really use that as an argument... but he had already taken a team to the finals without Phil&Kobe before he came to the Lakers, and won a finals without Phil&Kobe after the Lakers.

Lakers as a franchise having to rely on just Kobe, no Shaq and Phil: :\

Every star needs a good coach and anther superstars to reach the top, a championship. Jordan needed Pip & Phil, Magic needed Riley & Worthy & Cap, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, we know.

But Kobe needs a good coach and another superstar to even have the team compete at a level where he can be credited for being the face of a competitive team. "Man, if we had only beat the Suns with freaking Smush Parker and Brown." But... we didn't. "Man, if we had a better coach this year..." Then we would be a lot better, and it wouldn't be because of Kobe. It would be because we have a better coach.

Phil, w/o Kobe&Shaq: success

Shaq, w/o Phil&Kobe: success

Kobe, w/o Shaq&Phil: I dare you to call that a success.

No, it is not that they needed each other equally, as someone suggested on the last page.

 

[darthska]

"Oh, but Phil, away from Shaq&Kobe, had MJ and Pippen. And Shaq, away from Phil & Kobe, had Penny and Dwade."

look, the question is who needed who more. 2 of those people have been successful when we're their career was without the other 2; the 3rd person has absolutely not been successful without the other 2.


And keeping ths just between Shaq and Kobe for the purpose of determining who was the dominant figure back then, Shaq had already been to the Finals with a talented roster and a decent coach before he came to the Lakers. Kobe, right now, has a talented roster with a decent coach.

Finals worthy?

"Oh, ska... he's old!"

He's obviously... at least decent, considering where he is in the current season scoring list.

 

[sb]

So you think Kobe deserved those 1st team defenses and 2nd team last year? Wow. Just because a "panel" selects it, doesn't make it anymore right. They're the same idiot coaches that snub all star reserves every year as well. Kobe has been getting on those teams off name alone. Stop frontin like it's been based on his actual performance.

Also, kobe fans need to stop acting like the Lakers don't win without Kobe or that they'd be the worst team in the L if Kobe wasn't in the lineup.

so he was selected 1st team based on his name? 10 and 9 times? ok.

 

[mertonhanks]

^If you think Kobe deserved all defensive first team selections from 07-11 and 2nd team last season in 2012, then you honestly arent watching him play defense. Not that the award has any merit anyways but his idea of defense for the past 6/7 seasons has been playing off the ball, off his man, and going for steals. Even his own coach Phil Jackson called his defense overrated in 05/06 I believe.

 

[jsindaa]

So we are going to praise two people for having the exact situation outside of LA and ridicule the odd man out for.....excelling when he has basically the same situation without one? Makes NO sense. Phil had always had two superstars. Shaq always had a top 5 wing. What exactly did he do when he didn't have that luxury? Oh that's right. Like I said....yall need to call it even across the board. No one has said Shaq wasn't the man...but without Kobe those teams are not winning. As signified by the times Kobe saved him in the fourth or by locking the opposing teams best scorer. I mean we can sit here and act as if Kobe wasn't a huge part of 3 rings and the man for 2. Act as if he hasn't had an extremely illustrious career. Act as if he's some chucker and doesnt pass. Use small sample sizes on both sides to act as if Kobe and/or Shaq was so terrible. OR play it even across the board for every great, keep the criteria consistent and base who he is off that. Problem with doing that is agendas are screwed then. Too lazy and biased to take an honest look. not to take a shot ska but pick up ball is a gross misrepresentation of his game. If there's a guy who's shooting a bunch of shots and the team is winning....asking for him to play different is understandable. Still kinda dumb because you're winning but since its for nothing I get it. But a guy who's shooting a lot and winning when he gets paid to win....well to ask him to play different is just dumb. And to be a fan of a guy who shoots just as much? Even dumber. Not saying that's you per say but that's most people. Kobe is going to shoot. Absolutely. He takes very stupid shots at times. Absolutely. But his style of play works. And has only worked for one other person this well. Out of how many people? So to say he's overrated makes no sense logically.

 

[rex ryan]

That 3 peat was 80% Shaq and 20% Kobe in 2000 and more like 65% Shaq and 35% Kobe in 01 and 02.

 

[darthska]

No, I see your point, JsindA. Kobe can clearly lead a team without Shaq or Phil.

What's my beloved Lakers record again this season?

"Because he's old!" He's leading the league in scoring, last I checked. And if he's not anymore, he's top 2 or 3. Soooooooo... age hasn't kicked his *** to the point where he's ineffective quite yet. So kill that excuse.

"It's the coach!" I see. So he needs a great coach to have a relevant team? Fair point, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Other stars need a strong support system to take their team from 'relevant' to 'contender'. Kobe needs a strong support system just to have his team be relevant.

 

[sb]

^If you think Kobe deserved all defensive first team selections from 07-11 and 2nd team last season in 2012, then you honestly arent watching him play defense. Not that the award has any merit anyways but his idea of defense for the past 6/7 seasons has been playing off the ball, off his man, and going for steals. Even his own coach Phil Jackson called his defense overrated in 05/06 I believe.

with age all players d declines. in your opinion who was a better defender at his spot in the latter years?

 

[jsindaa]

I can understand that. And I agree to a point. He doesn't need a great coach to be relevant though. He needs a competent coach. Mike D is effectively screwing over the entire team. The Lakers were still relevant when Phil left. And there are so many problems with this team....we can't say its Kobe. I mean Diva Howard is complete buns, Pau isn't healthy and Nash is not effective at all

 

[presequel]

No, I see your point, JsindA. Kobe can clearly lead a team without Shaq or Phil.

What's my beloved Lakers record again this season?

"Because he's old!" He's leading the league in scoring, last I checked. And if he's not anymore, he's top 2 or 3. Soooooooo... age hasn't kicked his *** to the point where he's ineffective quite yet. So kill that excuse.

"It's the coach!" I see. So he needs a great coach to have a relevant team? Fair point, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Other stars need a strong support system to take their team from 'relevant' to 'contender'. Kobe needs a strong support system just to have his team be relevant.

Well, lets see.

One year without phil in 04 when team was in transition, his first chance to 'lead team'. Lets dock him for that.

Then first year with Mike Brown during a lockout season, finish as #3 seed, eliminated in second round. Guess we'll dock him for only being a #3 seed.

This year, might not make the playoffs with what seems to be a disfunctional team.

So thats 3 negatives in a 17 year career. Plus the first three years when he was a young buck. The other 11 years he had Phil. How can we really say he can't lead a team without Phil when hes really only had 3 seasons to do so? Doesn't seem like a fair argument.

All these knocks on Kobe could be used on Jordan as well. Colin Cowherd today noted after Jordan left, Bulls record only declined by 2 wins. Pippens stats went up. Everyone else on the team shots went up. Kerr was a great shooter. Kukoc was the best euro. They had a good team, otherwise the dropoff in wins would have been more significant, like when Lebron left the Cavs and joined the Cavs. When Jordan joined the bulls, they didn't significantly improve even with Woolridge and Gervin on the team. And none of this detracts from Jordan. It just proves he was a difference maker, not seen in just wins and losses, but in closing games out in the playoffs. Thats an x-factor. So while we argue about Kobe's impact in the playoffs with Shaq, and whether Shaq needed Kobe or if they would have won without him, the answer is no. The games played out the way they played out, you cannot substitute anyone else because thats not how scenarios work. Kobe may not have been big enough in those early years to impact wins and losses, his impact came from late game situations that Shaq was pretty much a non factor because of free throws and fouls.

 

[mertonhanks]

with age all players d declines. in your opinion who was a better defender at his spot in the latter years?

D-Wade, Tony Allen, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen off the top of my head.

Just look at the last 3 seasons alone. Do you think his defense was anywhere Near all second team last season? All 1st team in 2011 and 2010? Even the biggest Kobe enthusiasts have complained about his defense the last few seasons.

 

[quik1987]

I would like to see the lists of those calling Kobe Top 5

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

 

[irishbaz]

Right now for his age hes is NOT overrated, hes playing at a level guys 10yrs younger couldn't get to. Over his career - his first 5 yrs were overrated but once he established himself in the NBA he was not overrated. Hes not the best team leader but individually he has always been a threat, I wonder how long he will continue to play and will he go out on top (the way he is now) or will he take a secondary role on a championship team to get another ring - time will tell I guess.

 

[mister friendly]

It matters for sentimental reasons, nothing else.

A a fan of sports, one of the things I always like to do when I'm evaluating a player is take it back to the sports that I play. I actually play basketball. A lot.

in all my years of playing pickup basketball, literally thousands of games, I have never one time saw a guy get picked because of his age. I've never heard a guy say "I mean, yeah I know he's only 12, but he's really good for being 12, so yeah, I'll get him."

the fact that the kid is 12 and can shoot like nobody's business is awesome... for sentimental reasons. But in terms of actually play basketball? Doesn't matter.

the fact that Kobe was 19, 20 years old and in the Finals? Doesn't matter in terms of basketball. His 3 pointers didn't count for 4; his assist attempts didn't get doubled if they were converted because of his age.

it's no different than using race. "Plus, along with everything else Larry Bird did, he's white."

and? That doesn't matter in terms of evaluating basketball ability.

And neither does age. it matters for sentimental reasons and for record keeping and conversation and stuff. But if two players in the same game did the exact same thing and one was 30 and one was 19, you can't say the 19 year old was better in terms of basketball because he's 19. They both did the same damn thing. Is it interesting to point out for conversation that he's 19? Yes. does he get extra points for it? No.

I think the 'age as a compliment' dynamic is one of the most ridiculous things people do in sports. It's interesting to talk about a guy getting a no hitter at an old age, or having a 40 point game before he can legally buy alcohol, but that's all it is: interesting.

Dude youre talking about pickup Basketball and comparing it to the NBA?!?

So age is just sentimental in professional sports?

Ive been around high level sports for long time, I can tell you age is a big factor in the eqvalution of prospects and players. I've seen a 28 year old do better job than a 22 years old but the 22 year old is kept off potenial..."He doesnt get it now but wait til he gets it or develops"

Players are seen as Iinvestment stocks. So to expect a 3 mutual fund to yield greater divdiends than a 8 mutual fund isnt realistically.

Most professional sports players are in their atheltic prime between years 6-10 of their career or ages 27-31.

Kobe was 19-22 when Shaq was "running the show" which is debatable if Shaq really did.....its almost a 50/50 split for Kobe or Shaq. The people who say Kobe or Shaq arent delusional either way its just a matter of preference

 

[CP1708]

It was not 50/50. But it wasn't 75/25 either. People need to chill on the extremes.

 

[sb]

D-Wade, Tony Allen, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen off the top of my head.

Just look at the last 3 seasons alone. Do you think his defense was anywhere Near all second team last season? All 1st team in 2011 and 2010? Even the biggest Kobe enthusiasts have complained about his defense the last few seasons.

i agree on your point. should those 3 seasons define him entirely? i would say no.

 

[mister friendly]

D-Wade, Tony Allen, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen off the top of my head.

Just look at the last 3 seasons alone. Do you think his defense was anywhere Near all second team last season? All 1st team in 2011 and 2010? Even the biggest Kobe enthusiasts have complained about his defense the last few seasons.

Bowen was a 3. He made All Defensive teams as a small forward.

Wade its kinda a toss up. Wade is good shot blocker and recently hes been good at playing the passing lanes for steals but I still feel like Kobe when he really wants to was a better on the ball defender than Wade. I cant remember Wade locking somebody down. Plus Kobe has the prior reputation as being a great defender.

But I do think Kobe has become atrocious on rotation defense

Raja Bell is a journeyman. Its kinda to get defensive love unless you are an exceptional defender as a journeyman.

The only guy I agree with is Tony Allen. Yes Allen is a better overall defender than Kobe

 

[mertonhanks]

Awards like all defensive team that the NBA hands out is heavily influenced by stature and often does not portray what actually happens on the court. Kobes on ball perimeter defense was definitely 1st team level early in his career, although I felt Doug Christie was better. But to consistently hand Kobe all defense first teams through the latter half of his career not based on his on court play makes the award a Joke in the eyes of most. Even a few seasons ago, Kobe said himself he was more of a roamer on defense. At that same time, Trevor Ariza at the time was a much better on ball defender, always guarding the other teams best perimeter player. Kobe was still getting 1st team defensive selections and Trevor Ariza has 0 first or second team defensive selections.

 

[mertonhanks]

Bowen was a 3. He made All Defensive teams as a small forward.

Wade its kinda a toss up. Wade is good shot blocker and recently hes been good at playing the passing lanes for steals but I still feel like Kobe when he really wants to was a better on the ball defender than Wade. I cant remember Wade locking somebody down. Plus Kobe has the prior reputation as being a great defender.

But I do think Kobe has become atrocious on rotation defense

Raja Bell is a journeyman. Its kinda to get defensive love unless you are an exceptional defender as a journeyman.

The only guy I agree with is Tony Allen. Yes Allen is a better overall defender than Kobe

Bowen was a SF but I remember him winning one as a guard, I could be wrong. Bell being a journeyman should have nothing to do with a defensive award for 1 season. As for the last few seasons, Wade has been a better defender than Kobe. You cant say Kobe can lock someone down if he wants to, that offers no consistency. "Reputation as being a good defender" is exactly whats wrong with the reward itself -> Kobe got them off reputation.