NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[essential1]

I don't really feel like typing it all out for each explanation so I will kind of just put the name.. And where I have them at..

Nash: Top 50 (somewhere in the late 30's early 40's)
Shaq: Top 10 (like 7th or 8th) if only he kept himself at a reasonable weight...
Tim Duncan: Top 20.. (13th)
Kevin Garnett: Top 25 (right there at the bottom of the top 25)
Ray Allen: Top 35 (between 26-35)
Paul Pierce: Have no opinion really could make a case for anywhere between 50 & 100..
Kobe: Top 5 (can make the case anywhere for 3rd to 5th)

 

[essential1]

I don't really feel like typing it all out for each explanation so I will kind of just put the name.. And where I have them at..

Nash: Top 50 (somewhere in the late 30's early 40's)
Shaq: Top 10 (like 7th or 8th) if only he kept himself at a reasonable weight...
Tim Duncan: Top 20.. (13th)
Kevin Garnett: Top 25 (right there at the bottom of the top 25)
Ray Allen: Top 35 (between 26-35)
Paul Pierce: Have no opinion really could make a case for anywhere between 50 & 100..
Kobe: Top 5 (can make the case anywhere for 3rd to 5th)

 

[koolbarbone]

I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.

Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.

 

[koolbarbone]

I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.

Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Kobe shouldn't be compared to Jordan at all. Only thing similar is their style of play, and technical ability. In terms of production, game to game impact, accomplishments, general performance, etc., it's not really much of a comparison.

As for that game 7 against Phoenix, it's indeed a blemish, but I think you can pick out blemishes on the careers of just about every hall of fame player. Besides, they were down 20+ when he stopped shooting, and his team was absolutely atrocious in that game. Should he have kept jacking up shots till the bitter end? Probably, but they didn't stand a chance of coming back unless another teammate or two caught fire, and Phil said as much afterwards. That said, it's definitely a black mark on his "resume."

I mean the standard when discussing Kobe is usually Mike.  I can't think of any game off-hand where he mailed it in or a situation where he half-assed it.  %#%@, I've posted the video numerous times here on NT, but just think to when a 38 year old Jordan chased down a 26 year old Ron Mercer to pin that %#%@ on the backboard.  People like to talk about Kobe's drive and competitive nature, but again...the standard is Mike, and I can't think of anyone who remotely comes close in that area. 

My thing is that the standard shouldn't be Mike, just for the reasons stated. He was a unique athlete, both in terms of his physical dominance on the court, and his incomparable will and determination. So why is every great basketball player held to his standard? I just don't see how that's fair, because in a way it's belittling when those players invariably come up short. It's like if every successful investor was compared to Warren Buffett. Doesn't make sense to me.

Not even all great players, i mean outside of kobe every player they have ever mentioned as the next mj has fell short and didnt even reach their own individual talent.. vince carter, stackhouse, harold miner (hell they called him baby jordan) grant hill but i let him slide seeing injuries derailed his career and he was a legit pretty much from day one. I agree just let players be the first them and stop looking for the next of any player. Theirs not gonna be a next mj,bird,magic,wilt,oscar etc....Imagine like previous poster said this standard was applied in other avenues. Oh chappelle you arent funny cause you werent the next pryor. oh chris brown cant dance cause he isnt the next mjj.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Kobe shouldn't be compared to Jordan at all. Only thing similar is their style of play, and technical ability. In terms of production, game to game impact, accomplishments, general performance, etc., it's not really much of a comparison.

As for that game 7 against Phoenix, it's indeed a blemish, but I think you can pick out blemishes on the careers of just about every hall of fame player. Besides, they were down 20+ when he stopped shooting, and his team was absolutely atrocious in that game. Should he have kept jacking up shots till the bitter end? Probably, but they didn't stand a chance of coming back unless another teammate or two caught fire, and Phil said as much afterwards. That said, it's definitely a black mark on his "resume."

I mean the standard when discussing Kobe is usually Mike.  I can't think of any game off-hand where he mailed it in or a situation where he half-assed it.  %#%@, I've posted the video numerous times here on NT, but just think to when a 38 year old Jordan chased down a 26 year old Ron Mercer to pin that %#%@ on the backboard.  People like to talk about Kobe's drive and competitive nature, but again...the standard is Mike, and I can't think of anyone who remotely comes close in that area. 

My thing is that the standard shouldn't be Mike, just for the reasons stated. He was a unique athlete, both in terms of his physical dominance on the court, and his incomparable will and determination. So why is every great basketball player held to his standard? I just don't see how that's fair, because in a way it's belittling when those players invariably come up short. It's like if every successful investor was compared to Warren Buffett. Doesn't make sense to me.

Not even all great players, i mean outside of kobe every player they have ever mentioned as the next mj has fell short and didnt even reach their own individual talent.. vince carter, stackhouse, harold miner (hell they called him baby jordan) grant hill but i let him slide seeing injuries derailed his career and he was a legit pretty much from day one. I agree just let players be the first them and stop looking for the next of any player. Theirs not gonna be a next mj,bird,magic,wilt,oscar etc....Imagine like previous poster said this standard was applied in other avenues. Oh chappelle you arent funny cause you werent the next pryor. oh chris brown cant dance cause he isnt the next mjj.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Let me ask you all...why is it inconceivable (to some) that a player from TODAY'S NBA can arguably be better than someone who came before them in the 80's-90's. There are a lot of nostalgic folks, IMO, who have a hard time grasping that LEGIT arguments can be made when comparing players from two different eras of pro ball. I just wanted to throw that out there.

The way the human sports mind works kind of disallows it from happening. It is easier for someone to compare retired players than it is to compare and active vs. retired player. You don't know someone's legacy until they are finished. Also, you know people's opinions of a player increases as time goes on, hell that is with anything. So the older players have that advantage in folks minds, that advantage being the imaginary hype of their careers because they have been gone for so long.

Also consider that retired players don't have that much full game film available and only highlights, so folks go look at those and forget that highlights are only positive. So they use those in current vs retired player arguments. I remember somebody pulled that mess on me in here SMH.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

Let me ask you all...why is it inconceivable (to some) that a player from TODAY'S NBA can arguably be better than someone who came before them in the 80's-90's. There are a lot of nostalgic folks, IMO, who have a hard time grasping that LEGIT arguments can be made when comparing players from two different eras of pro ball. I just wanted to throw that out there.

The way the human sports mind works kind of disallows it from happening. It is easier for someone to compare retired players than it is to compare and active vs. retired player. You don't know someone's legacy until they are finished. Also, you know people's opinions of a player increases as time goes on, hell that is with anything. So the older players have that advantage in folks minds, that advantage being the imaginary hype of their careers because they have been gone for so long.

Also consider that retired players don't have that much full game film available and only highlights, so folks go look at those and forget that highlights are only positive. So they use those in current vs retired player arguments. I remember somebody pulled that mess on me in here SMH.

 

[aztec06jr]

Regarding Kobe quitting on the Lakers against the Suns and saying MJ never quit on his team: google Michael Jordan baseball

Dirk vs KG - classic offense vs defense matchup. As someone already mentioned, Dirk is clearly the better 1st option and go to player. KG is the pick if you need a 2nd option / defensive presence.

I'm an evolutionist so I usually give the edge to modern day players: Ray > Reggie

I'll return when the finals wrap up - LeBron and Dirk have a lot at stake or to gain

 

[aztec06jr]

Regarding Kobe quitting on the Lakers against the Suns and saying MJ never quit on his team: google Michael Jordan baseball

Dirk vs KG - classic offense vs defense matchup. As someone already mentioned, Dirk is clearly the better 1st option and go to player. KG is the pick if you need a 2nd option / defensive presence.

I'm an evolutionist so I usually give the edge to modern day players: Ray > Reggie

I'll return when the finals wrap up - LeBron and Dirk have a lot at stake or to gain

 

[doublejs07]

I didnt realize retiring after the NBA finals = quitting.

 

[doublejs07]

I didnt realize retiring after the NBA finals = quitting.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

I didnt realize retiring after the NBA finals = quitting.

   also mj retiring was just away to get ppl minds off the fed indictment he was about to face and coverup about the accusations proven with recorded conversations/witnesses about how him david stern and the refs had inside dealings to fix/rig certain games.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

I didnt realize retiring after the NBA finals = quitting.

   also mj retiring was just away to get ppl minds off the fed indictment he was about to face and coverup about the accusations proven with recorded conversations/witnesses about how him david stern and the refs had inside dealings to fix/rig certain games.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

This brings me back to Kobe. In 2006, there was a game 7 in the NBA playoffs vs. the Suns. LA was down by double-figures at the half, but Kobe made the decision to stop shooting. This was arguably the most dominant player in the NBA at the time and earlier in season he went off for 81 points vs. the Raptors. If anyone could lead a comeback of epic proportions in a game 7, you would think that Kobe could do it. Long story short, Kobe turned in one of the most SELFISH acts (even moreso than Pippen, IMO) that the NBA has ever seen.

You can compare Mike to Kobe till you are blue in the face. Go over the all-star games, MVP trophy, all-defensive team nods, RINGS, etc etc...but there is one thing that you can NEVER accuse Michael Jordan of doing. That is quitting. I'm sorry, but for a player of Kobe's makeup, you'd expect more.

Kobe is one of the greatest players that I've seen play...but this is a blemish on his resume that I can't ignore and wonder why it's overlooked. Am I reaching here? I know this isn't going to be a popular post with many Lakers fans, but there is nothing that bothers ME more than seeing an athlete "mail it in."

I understand people for pointing this game and series out, but people need to re-watch that whole series honestly, Kobe played that thing exactly the way Phil asked him too, and they controlled 5 out of the 7 games.  They were unlucky as hell for not winning that series.  Kobe was doin 20 a night or so and that was it the whole series until game 6.  They were playing slow it down, grind it out ball, trying to stall the Suns.  It was working to perfection.  Kobe gettin 20 when he just finished 82 games of avg'in 35 a night was pretty severe don't ya think? 

When Raja got his dumb @#$ suspended for game 6 in LA, Phil unleashed Kobe and they went for it all.  Close the series out at home, NO WAY did any Laker fan want any part of a starting lineup of Kwame, Smush, and Luke closing out on the road in a game 7. 

 

We were ONE rebound away from winning that series.  And we failed.  And it was a huge letdown.  In that game 6 in OT, Kobe scored 12 points in OT.  12.  In 5 minutes.  And we damn near lost by 10. 

  The Suns scored damn near every single possession.  They had all the momentum, we never ever recovered from that tying 3 by Thomas.  People didn't know it, but that series was already over now. 

Nobody but Kobe showed up for game 7.  NOBODY.  Kwame, Smush, Luke, and if you think about it, that was 25 year old Lamar Odom and his ghost whispering days.  You never knew which Lamar would show up.  Triple Double thread Lamar, or 4 point 6 rebound Lamar.  The answer for this game?  12 and 5, and he shot about 30% or some @#$%. 

  Kobe was going ham in the first half, dude had 23 at half, and they were down 15 points.  So there you have it, there are your options and expectations.  Kobe can do one of these things.  Shoot all night, lose by 20 and have people say that for 6 games he played within Phil's system and it was working and then he over shot them in game 7, or he could go back to Phil's system in the second half and hope to God that the others would play a little better, and maybe get them back to 8-10 points in the 4th, then maybe Kobe could try and do something.  Instead, they came out in the 3rd Q, and the Suns just ran all over those bums.  Nobody could do a damn thing, and Kobe was doomed.  As he put it, he was showin up to a gun fight with a butter knife. 

So I'm not sure how he quit, but that's the dilemna he's always been in.  He shoots too much, or he doesn't shoot at all, either way the blame goes to him.  And that's how it goes, he's the leader and the superstar, the blame goes to that guy, and he's that guy.  Always been that way, always will be.  If they get the 1 rebound, this game never happens, but they couldn't get it.  But 23 points from your leader by halftime, and your team is down 15 points, the dude didn't quit, he was alone out there.  And if he did quit, guess what, he was the last Laker to do so, the rest of them quit soon as OT started in game 6.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

This brings me back to Kobe. In 2006, there was a game 7 in the NBA playoffs vs. the Suns. LA was down by double-figures at the half, but Kobe made the decision to stop shooting. This was arguably the most dominant player in the NBA at the time and earlier in season he went off for 81 points vs. the Raptors. If anyone could lead a comeback of epic proportions in a game 7, you would think that Kobe could do it. Long story short, Kobe turned in one of the most SELFISH acts (even moreso than Pippen, IMO) that the NBA has ever seen.

You can compare Mike to Kobe till you are blue in the face. Go over the all-star games, MVP trophy, all-defensive team nods, RINGS, etc etc...but there is one thing that you can NEVER accuse Michael Jordan of doing. That is quitting. I'm sorry, but for a player of Kobe's makeup, you'd expect more.

Kobe is one of the greatest players that I've seen play...but this is a blemish on his resume that I can't ignore and wonder why it's overlooked. Am I reaching here? I know this isn't going to be a popular post with many Lakers fans, but there is nothing that bothers ME more than seeing an athlete "mail it in."

I understand people for pointing this game and series out, but people need to re-watch that whole series honestly, Kobe played that thing exactly the way Phil asked him too, and they controlled 5 out of the 7 games.  They were unlucky as hell for not winning that series.  Kobe was doin 20 a night or so and that was it the whole series until game 6.  They were playing slow it down, grind it out ball, trying to stall the Suns.  It was working to perfection.  Kobe gettin 20 when he just finished 82 games of avg'in 35 a night was pretty severe don't ya think? 

When Raja got his dumb @#$ suspended for game 6 in LA, Phil unleashed Kobe and they went for it all.  Close the series out at home, NO WAY did any Laker fan want any part of a starting lineup of Kwame, Smush, and Luke closing out on the road in a game 7. 

 

We were ONE rebound away from winning that series.  And we failed.  And it was a huge letdown.  In that game 6 in OT, Kobe scored 12 points in OT.  12.  In 5 minutes.  And we damn near lost by 10. 

  The Suns scored damn near every single possession.  They had all the momentum, we never ever recovered from that tying 3 by Thomas.  People didn't know it, but that series was already over now. 

Nobody but Kobe showed up for game 7.  NOBODY.  Kwame, Smush, Luke, and if you think about it, that was 25 year old Lamar Odom and his ghost whispering days.  You never knew which Lamar would show up.  Triple Double thread Lamar, or 4 point 6 rebound Lamar.  The answer for this game?  12 and 5, and he shot about 30% or some @#$%. 

  Kobe was going ham in the first half, dude had 23 at half, and they were down 15 points.  So there you have it, there are your options and expectations.  Kobe can do one of these things.  Shoot all night, lose by 20 and have people say that for 6 games he played within Phil's system and it was working and then he over shot them in game 7, or he could go back to Phil's system in the second half and hope to God that the others would play a little better, and maybe get them back to 8-10 points in the 4th, then maybe Kobe could try and do something.  Instead, they came out in the 3rd Q, and the Suns just ran all over those bums.  Nobody could do a damn thing, and Kobe was doomed.  As he put it, he was showin up to a gun fight with a butter knife. 

So I'm not sure how he quit, but that's the dilemna he's always been in.  He shoots too much, or he doesn't shoot at all, either way the blame goes to him.  And that's how it goes, he's the leader and the superstar, the blame goes to that guy, and he's that guy.  Always been that way, always will be.  If they get the 1 rebound, this game never happens, but they couldn't get it.  But 23 points from your leader by halftime, and your team is down 15 points, the dude didn't quit, he was alone out there.  And if he did quit, guess what, he was the last Laker to do so, the rest of them quit soon as OT started in game 6.

 

[CP1708]

LDJ wrote:

---

Nowitness41Dirk wrote:

---

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.


Thats one part of a season, lets look at all aspects, shooting, skillset, defense, leadership, every aspect which makes a player individual great. The only aspect in which dirk edges out kg is team success and not being afraid to take/make clutch shots. If thats all this is the basis of being a great player then dirk would be the undisputed 2nd best pf. He has more success playoff wise then malone, esp if they win the finals, more then barkley.

that logic could be used to say chauncey billups>kidd and nash hell even stockton gp. Did he not lead a team to a championship and multi ecf's? Has he not been more clutch/made big shots then either of those players? And he has had more team success then either of those players? Didnt he win finals MVP?

But if you equate all aspects of their individual games you can clearly see that any of those players are better then chauncey.


I have never understood why people can't seem to figure out that things get looked at and divided up between players individual and team success. 

We aren't breaking down a bunch of Boris Diaw's, we're talkin elite players, team leaders, best of the best, and the expectations of these franchise players is to lead their teams to victory.  So when you talk about these players career's, the team success MUST be brought into the discussion.  But it's merely one aspect.  Nobody in here is saying JUST because Billups and his team always go to the conference finals, he's better than Kidd, or Stockton, or whoever.  But it's one part of Billups's resume, is it not?  It is fair to say that Billups won a title, and has a finals MVP, and Stockton and Kidd do not, correct?  Yes it is.  Just as it's fair to say that Stockton is the all time leading assist maker, and Billups is not.  Stockton had a hall of fame power foward next to him for probably 60% of those assists, while Billups did not.  Should we then disqualify John's assist totals since it was a "team" effort to score those buckets? 

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP

By the way great thread idea CP...guess I wasn't important enough to get a PM though

  Come on fam, that isn't what I was saying.  The PM's were to people who were scaring me in other threads talkin about "Legacies" and what not, I was tryin to slow them down from that talk before people started opening individual threads everywhere.  Like the JKidd Appreciation post that opened last week.  @#$% was gettin in my way.  I was just tryin to gather everything into one thread is all, I knew you'd be in here. 

Originally Posted by LDJ


Ive mentioned this when ppl talked about lbj pippen and the fact they always say kobe would/has never done that. Then all of a sudden the thread is like a rat pissin on cotton. Im not taking anything away from kb8 but that season their were times where kobe just said f it, and practically gave up on the lakers, and or just said the hell with them and just making it all about him and not about the team. I find it funny that after 7/8 years of night in night out lbj had to deal with it, and on top of that deal with it living in clevland of all places, and on a team that realistically was never gonna win never will win. Yet kobe only had to endure it 2 seasons and already had 3 rings, and under the table kinda forced the breakup of the dynasty, and basically said hell with the team after the start of a lackluster season.

I feel understand where ppl saying lbj shouldnt have given up, thrown in the towel stayed positive, and kobe never would be that way, but infact he did and the funny part was that he HAD a great team championship team, that because of his attitude was broken up, and he was on a great team that is known for building champions, but the fact he wasnt in that position for not even a whole season he was dissing players, saying folks should be traded, hell saying he wanted to be traded. i Just find it comical that one player gets crucified for never having a good team, and enduring it for damn near 8 years, and another get praised for getting mad/wanting to throw in the towel after a 3peat, because he didnt have a championship team which was in part his fault. I guess haters are gonna hate no matter how hypocritical, ironic it maybe.  

I'll go ahead and assume you didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that whole situation.  Kobe wasn't pissed being on a team that was losing for a few years.  He was pissed that when he signed his long term contract, the front office told him they would indeed rebuild the team around him, and they would get back to winning and contending.  Then for 3 years they sat around and did nothing except trade Caron Butler for Kwame Brown.  THAT is what Kobe was pissed about. 

Lebron hadn't signed a long term extension, he was dangling the Cavs over a fire the entire time he was there, they couldn't get anybody else to go there with him, because nobody knew if he would stay or not.  It is not even remotely the same situation as Kobe, who had his contract locked in.  The Cavs front office was trying to get guys to come over, but they wouldn't since Bron was up in the air, Lakers front office was doing nothing for 3 years while their star was locked in.  Once Kobe demanded action, the front office finally made a deal. 

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.

Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.

  

This is exactly why I wanted something like this thread.  There are many ways to skin a cat, just as many ways to look at and define NBA careers. 

I just stated that to me, Ray is the better overall player compared to Reggie, but when I saw this post right here and he mentions one game, one shot, etc, I was nodding the whole time reading it.  I completely agree.  And this is where you have to decide, which is more important to you when comparing and trying to list out who goes where in terms of all time rankings. 
I love Ray and his game, but I don't know if he had the cold blooded killer instinct that Reggie had.  And when trying to win something, you have to have that.  I think if Reggie had joined two other franchise guys, he certainly would have found a way to get that title, instead he led his own team his whole career.  The debate between the 2, just got tougher when looking at it this way. 

 

[CP1708]

LDJ wrote:

---

Nowitness41Dirk wrote:

---

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.


Thats one part of a season, lets look at all aspects, shooting, skillset, defense, leadership, every aspect which makes a player individual great. The only aspect in which dirk edges out kg is team success and not being afraid to take/make clutch shots. If thats all this is the basis of being a great player then dirk would be the undisputed 2nd best pf. He has more success playoff wise then malone, esp if they win the finals, more then barkley.

that logic could be used to say chauncey billups>kidd and nash hell even stockton gp. Did he not lead a team to a championship and multi ecf's? Has he not been more clutch/made big shots then either of those players? And he has had more team success then either of those players? Didnt he win finals MVP?

But if you equate all aspects of their individual games you can clearly see that any of those players are better then chauncey.


I have never understood why people can't seem to figure out that things get looked at and divided up between players individual and team success. 

We aren't breaking down a bunch of Boris Diaw's, we're talkin elite players, team leaders, best of the best, and the expectations of these franchise players is to lead their teams to victory.  So when you talk about these players career's, the team success MUST be brought into the discussion.  But it's merely one aspect.  Nobody in here is saying JUST because Billups and his team always go to the conference finals, he's better than Kidd, or Stockton, or whoever.  But it's one part of Billups's resume, is it not?  It is fair to say that Billups won a title, and has a finals MVP, and Stockton and Kidd do not, correct?  Yes it is.  Just as it's fair to say that Stockton is the all time leading assist maker, and Billups is not.  Stockton had a hall of fame power foward next to him for probably 60% of those assists, while Billups did not.  Should we then disqualify John's assist totals since it was a "team" effort to score those buckets? 

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP

By the way great thread idea CP...guess I wasn't important enough to get a PM though

  Come on fam, that isn't what I was saying.  The PM's were to people who were scaring me in other threads talkin about "Legacies" and what not, I was tryin to slow them down from that talk before people started opening individual threads everywhere.  Like the JKidd Appreciation post that opened last week.  @#$% was gettin in my way.  I was just tryin to gather everything into one thread is all, I knew you'd be in here. 

Originally Posted by LDJ


Ive mentioned this when ppl talked about lbj pippen and the fact they always say kobe would/has never done that. Then all of a sudden the thread is like a rat pissin on cotton. Im not taking anything away from kb8 but that season their were times where kobe just said f it, and practically gave up on the lakers, and or just said the hell with them and just making it all about him and not about the team. I find it funny that after 7/8 years of night in night out lbj had to deal with it, and on top of that deal with it living in clevland of all places, and on a team that realistically was never gonna win never will win. Yet kobe only had to endure it 2 seasons and already had 3 rings, and under the table kinda forced the breakup of the dynasty, and basically said hell with the team after the start of a lackluster season.

I feel understand where ppl saying lbj shouldnt have given up, thrown in the towel stayed positive, and kobe never would be that way, but infact he did and the funny part was that he HAD a great team championship team, that because of his attitude was broken up, and he was on a great team that is known for building champions, but the fact he wasnt in that position for not even a whole season he was dissing players, saying folks should be traded, hell saying he wanted to be traded. i Just find it comical that one player gets crucified for never having a good team, and enduring it for damn near 8 years, and another get praised for getting mad/wanting to throw in the towel after a 3peat, because he didnt have a championship team which was in part his fault. I guess haters are gonna hate no matter how hypocritical, ironic it maybe.  

I'll go ahead and assume you didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that whole situation.  Kobe wasn't pissed being on a team that was losing for a few years.  He was pissed that when he signed his long term contract, the front office told him they would indeed rebuild the team around him, and they would get back to winning and contending.  Then for 3 years they sat around and did nothing except trade Caron Butler for Kwame Brown.  THAT is what Kobe was pissed about. 

Lebron hadn't signed a long term extension, he was dangling the Cavs over a fire the entire time he was there, they couldn't get anybody else to go there with him, because nobody knew if he would stay or not.  It is not even remotely the same situation as Kobe, who had his contract locked in.  The Cavs front office was trying to get guys to come over, but they wouldn't since Bron was up in the air, Lakers front office was doing nothing for 3 years while their star was locked in.  Once Kobe demanded action, the front office finally made a deal. 

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.

Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.

  

This is exactly why I wanted something like this thread.  There are many ways to skin a cat, just as many ways to look at and define NBA careers. 

I just stated that to me, Ray is the better overall player compared to Reggie, but when I saw this post right here and he mentions one game, one shot, etc, I was nodding the whole time reading it.  I completely agree.  And this is where you have to decide, which is more important to you when comparing and trying to list out who goes where in terms of all time rankings. 
I love Ray and his game, but I don't know if he had the cold blooded killer instinct that Reggie had.  And when trying to win something, you have to have that.  I think if Reggie had joined two other franchise guys, he certainly would have found a way to get that title, instead he led his own team his whole career.  The debate between the 2, just got tougher when looking at it this way. 

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.
I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down.

  

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.
I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down.

  

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down 

No I don't think it is his fault at all. He did everything in his power to will those teams to win. He just so happened to come up against better teams. He did nothing to cause those teams to not succeed. I wouldn't dare blame him for those. Almost as crazy as people blaming LeBron for not winning a ring in Cleveland. If they are the blame then I don't know what to tell you. Stupid logic to me.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down 

No I don't think it is his fault at all. He did everything in his power to will those teams to win. He just so happened to come up against better teams. He did nothing to cause those teams to not succeed. I wouldn't dare blame him for those. Almost as crazy as people blaming LeBron for not winning a ring in Cleveland. If they are the blame then I don't know what to tell you. Stupid logic to me.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican


I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down 

No I don't think it is his fault at all. He did everything in his power to will those teams to win. He just so happened to come up against better teams. He did nothing to cause those teams to not succeed. I wouldn't dare blame him for those. Almost as crazy as people blaming LeBron for not winning a ring in Cleveland. If they are the blame then I don't know what to tell you. Stupid logic to me.

He didn't do everything in his power.  KG could have been a great offensive player but was as shook anybody ever in end of game situations.  Dude plays hot potatoe more than any reat player ever.  That is a knock.  And were not talking about leadng Cleveland to the ring, were talkin about leading Minny to the 1st round.  A top 30 player of all-time should get his team into the playoffs no matter what, regardless thats a knock on him no matter how you refute it.  They aren't to blame neccisareily but it is a %!%!% in the armor for their legacies which is what we are dicsussin.  These gguys are all the best players ever but the point of these discussions is to nitpick and that's what we are doin.

KG in a one on one tourney duirng the 2000 olympics beat everybody on the team, ran off 17 straight wins, yet in an end of game situation I think I can't ever recall him calling for an iso or wanting the rock.  That matters.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican


I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

I can't think of another guy though who is considered a top 30 player of all-time who's teams were missing the playoffs though during that player's prime.  You don't think that's a knock at all?  The one year they did do anything I'd argue was as much Sam Cassell as him, reason why they didn't get past the Lakers when he went down 

No I don't think it is his fault at all. He did everything in his power to will those teams to win. He just so happened to come up against better teams. He did nothing to cause those teams to not succeed. I wouldn't dare blame him for those. Almost as crazy as people blaming LeBron for not winning a ring in Cleveland. If they are the blame then I don't know what to tell you. Stupid logic to me.

He didn't do everything in his power.  KG could have been a great offensive player but was as shook anybody ever in end of game situations.  Dude plays hot potatoe more than any reat player ever.  That is a knock.  And were not talking about leadng Cleveland to the ring, were talkin about leading Minny to the 1st round.  A top 30 player of all-time should get his team into the playoffs no matter what, regardless thats a knock on him no matter how you refute it.  They aren't to blame neccisareily but it is a %!%!% in the armor for their legacies which is what we are dicsussin.  These gguys are all the best players ever but the point of these discussions is to nitpick and that's what we are doin.

KG in a one on one tourney duirng the 2000 olympics beat everybody on the team, ran off 17 straight wins, yet in an end of game situation I think I can't ever recall him calling for an iso or wanting the rock.  That matters.

 

[CP1708]

I agree whole heartedly on KG, hence me saying he left some in the tank.  There have been whispers about KG coming thru in the clutch MANY times over his career.  He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters.  He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough.  It's why he worked out perfectly with Pierce and Ray, he could do work for 3 quarters, then let them do it in the 4th. 

He gets credit for all that he's done, but his knock is EASILY his 4th quarter performances.  Can you say the same about Dirk? 

When we get to Dirk's total updated resume, he will have some blemishes on his resume, everybody does (except Mike) so it will all come down to how each person personally values timing of performance.  If you want to weight someone's greatness based on some fantastic December basketball games vs bottom feeding teams, sure, feel free, but when splitting hairs with heavyweights, it comes down to playoff time.  Winning and losing time.  At least it does for me, and I'm pretty sure many others will agree. 

You don't have to put every single game, every single series on a guy.  Chris Paul didn't get out of the first round this year, but not a soul on Earth would place blame on him for that one would they?  The years that Minny got beat and KG went down giving everything he had but just not enough help, that's fine, credit can at least be given to him for his performance.  But when KG doesn't perform his best, especially late in games, then questions need to be asked.
Bron played incredible vs Orlando, and yet still lost.  I give him credit for the way HE played, the only argument against him in that series was that his teammates didn't show up, even though they had for 6 months prior to that.  It became a debate about how he played, and if they did or didn't show up, did he help them, or hurt them doin big numbers, things like that.  The fact he went awol the next year vs Boston left more questions.  He redeemed himself vs Boston and Chicago this year, and now 2 weeks after that, the questions are back again.  (We may see some answers in the next couple days) 

You have to step back and view the entire picture when looking at how to slot their careers.  I really don't get why people don't get that.  Some years a guy isn't fully healthy, other years you just run into a hot team, bad matchup, etc etc.  If you break them down on a case by case basis you'll get a good look at how a player carried their franchise.(s)