NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[pmatic]

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

 

[abovelegit1]

Of course Tracy should get some blame for his lack of playoff success, but my point was that team success shouldn't be among the top things one considers when evaluating a player's legacy. Too many factors go into winning and success in the playoffs, most of which have nothing to do with how well a player plays. As for McGrady, he only had 2 real runs at it with a legit all-star, and both times they went 7 games in the first round. McGrady was otherworldly in that first 7 game series they lost, and in the second one he could have been better, but he was still better than Yao who was pedestrian. Also, McGrady is one of the few guys whose career playoff numbers were significantly better than his regular season numbers. Just some thoughts for consideration.

They proved it for me. Garnett with a team around him was able to go deep into playoffs. McGrady with one of the most dominant Centers of this era still couldn't get out of the first round.
You can't seriously be comparing those Boston Celtics squads with those Houston teams. And Yao wasn't a dominant player, nor was he ever fully healthy. . In no way am I saying that I would put T-Mac over KG on an all-time list, but these guys should all be evaluated fairly. It should be noted that KG has had plenty of playoff stinkers himself, and that KG's overall production in the playoffs is inferior to McGrady's.

 

[abovelegit1]

Of course Tracy should get some blame for his lack of playoff success, but my point was that team success shouldn't be among the top things one considers when evaluating a player's legacy. Too many factors go into winning and success in the playoffs, most of which have nothing to do with how well a player plays. As for McGrady, he only had 2 real runs at it with a legit all-star, and both times they went 7 games in the first round. McGrady was otherworldly in that first 7 game series they lost, and in the second one he could have been better, but he was still better than Yao who was pedestrian. Also, McGrady is one of the few guys whose career playoff numbers were significantly better than his regular season numbers. Just some thoughts for consideration.

They proved it for me. Garnett with a team around him was able to go deep into playoffs. McGrady with one of the most dominant Centers of this era still couldn't get out of the first round.
You can't seriously be comparing those Boston Celtics squads with those Houston teams. And Yao wasn't a dominant player, nor was he ever fully healthy. . In no way am I saying that I would put T-Mac over KG on an all-time list, but these guys should all be evaluated fairly. It should be noted that KG has had plenty of playoff stinkers himself, and that KG's overall production in the playoffs is inferior to McGrady's.

 

[youngtriz]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

finals MVP... dude blacked out in 08-09 and put up crazy #'s.. best shot blocking guard EVER

 

[youngtriz]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

finals MVP... dude blacked out in 08-09 and put up crazy #'s.. best shot blocking guard EVER

 

[651akathepaul]

My evaluation is very fair. When Garnett got help, he won. McGrady never won. Not even if his help was minimal, but a guard of TMAC's caliber should have advanced past one round of the playoffs with Yao.

 

[651akathepaul]

My evaluation is very fair. When Garnett got help, he won. McGrady never won. Not even if his help was minimal, but a guard of TMAC's caliber should have advanced past one round of the playoffs with Yao.

 

[pmatic]

Originally Posted by YoungTriz

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

finals MVP... dude blacked out in 08-09 and put up crazy #'s.. best shot blocking guard EVER

Very fun season to watch from Wade. I wish the Heat didn't lose to the Hawks that year in the playoffs. Could have set up for an epic showdown vs LeBron. Oh well.

 

[pmatic]

Originally Posted by YoungTriz

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

finals MVP... dude blacked out in 08-09 and put up crazy #'s.. best shot blocking guard EVER

Very fun season to watch from Wade. I wish the Heat didn't lose to the Hawks that year in the playoffs. Could have set up for an epic showdown vs LeBron. Oh well.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Of course Tracy should get some blame for his lack of playoff success, but my point was that team success shouldn't be among the top things one considers when evaluating a player's legacy. Too many factors go into winning and success in the playoffs, most of which have nothing to do with how well a player plays. As for McGrady, he only had 2 real runs at it with a legit all-star, and both times they went 7 games in the first round. McGrady was otherworldly in that first 7 game series they lost, and in the second one he could have been better, but he was still better than Yao who was pedestrian. Also, McGrady is one of the few guys whose career playoff numbers were significantly better than his regular season numbers. Just some thoughts for consideration.

They proved it for me. Garnett with a team around him was able to go deep into playoffs. McGrady with one of the most dominant Centers of this era still couldn't get out of the first round.

You can't seriously be comparing those Boston Celtics squads with those Houston teams. And Yao wasn't a dominant player, nor was he ever fully healthy. . In no way am I saying that I would put T-Mac over KG on an all-time list, but these guys should all be evaluated fairly. It should be noted that KG has had plenty of playoff stinkers himself, and that KG's overall production in the playoffs is inferior to McGrady's.


Ok, so when you sit down and try to place players where they should slot in terms of all time, where do you rank Tracy, and where do you rank KG, and why?  What factors/accomplishments are you going to put the most weight on, and how close are we talkin here with the two?  Do you even have Tracy in your own personal top 50 all time? 
  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Of course Tracy should get some blame for his lack of playoff success, but my point was that team success shouldn't be among the top things one considers when evaluating a player's legacy. Too many factors go into winning and success in the playoffs, most of which have nothing to do with how well a player plays. As for McGrady, he only had 2 real runs at it with a legit all-star, and both times they went 7 games in the first round. McGrady was otherworldly in that first 7 game series they lost, and in the second one he could have been better, but he was still better than Yao who was pedestrian. Also, McGrady is one of the few guys whose career playoff numbers were significantly better than his regular season numbers. Just some thoughts for consideration.

They proved it for me. Garnett with a team around him was able to go deep into playoffs. McGrady with one of the most dominant Centers of this era still couldn't get out of the first round.

You can't seriously be comparing those Boston Celtics squads with those Houston teams. And Yao wasn't a dominant player, nor was he ever fully healthy. . In no way am I saying that I would put T-Mac over KG on an all-time list, but these guys should all be evaluated fairly. It should be noted that KG has had plenty of playoff stinkers himself, and that KG's overall production in the playoffs is inferior to McGrady's.


Ok, so when you sit down and try to place players where they should slot in terms of all time, where do you rank Tracy, and where do you rank KG, and why?  What factors/accomplishments are you going to put the most weight on, and how close are we talkin here with the two?  Do you even have Tracy in your own personal top 50 all time? 
  

 

[abovelegit1]

My evaluation is very fair. When Garnett got help, he won. McGrady never won. Not even if his help was minimal, but a guard of TMAC's caliber should have advanced past one round of the playoffs with Yao.

That is a ridiculously oversimplified opinion, but okay.

Ok, so when you sit down and try to place players where they should slot in terms of all time, where do you rank Tracy, and where do you rank KG, and why?  What factors/accomplishments are you going to put the most weight on, and how close are we talkin here with the two?  Do you even have Tracy in your own personal top 50 all time? 

No idea what my top 50 would look like; I don't, for example, know/seen enough about Elgin Baylor to rank him properly. But the main factor for me would be how good at the game of basketball player x was. More specifically, how big of an impact at both ends of the court they had on games they played, with more emphasis placed on playoff games. This can be evaluated in a variety of ways. As for accomplishments, I don't put too much weight on them, especially awards that are voted on considering that someone like Ric Bucher votes on these things.

I said what I think about team success, mainly because I wouldn't ever think less of someone like Stockton or Barkley for not winning one. I do think that those guys who lead their teams to multiple titles should be given credit for that, just because it strongly implies good leadership, work ethic, consistency, desire, and all those other intangibles that everyone loves.

I guess I rate Tracy more highly than most, primarily because at his peak, he demonstrated a rare mastery of the game over the course of a season that few have ever shown.


Great thread/debate, btw.

 

[abovelegit1]

My evaluation is very fair. When Garnett got help, he won. McGrady never won. Not even if his help was minimal, but a guard of TMAC's caliber should have advanced past one round of the playoffs with Yao.

That is a ridiculously oversimplified opinion, but okay.

Ok, so when you sit down and try to place players where they should slot in terms of all time, where do you rank Tracy, and where do you rank KG, and why?  What factors/accomplishments are you going to put the most weight on, and how close are we talkin here with the two?  Do you even have Tracy in your own personal top 50 all time? 

No idea what my top 50 would look like; I don't, for example, know/seen enough about Elgin Baylor to rank him properly. But the main factor for me would be how good at the game of basketball player x was. More specifically, how big of an impact at both ends of the court they had on games they played, with more emphasis placed on playoff games. This can be evaluated in a variety of ways. As for accomplishments, I don't put too much weight on them, especially awards that are voted on considering that someone like Ric Bucher votes on these things.

I said what I think about team success, mainly because I wouldn't ever think less of someone like Stockton or Barkley for not winning one. I do think that those guys who lead their teams to multiple titles should be given credit for that, just because it strongly implies good leadership, work ethic, consistency, desire, and all those other intangibles that everyone loves.

I guess I rate Tracy more highly than most, primarily because at his peak, he demonstrated a rare mastery of the game over the course of a season that few have ever shown.


Great thread/debate, btw.

 

[651akathepaul]

Exactly.

Sometimes simple explains all you need to know. No need to delve any deeper than what we see and know on this one. It is what it is.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

I guess I rate Tracy more highly than most, primarily because at his peak, he demonstrated a rare mastery of the game over the course of a season that few have ever shown.

I can see that.  He had 3-4 years there that rival anybody, certainly.  So then to steal from Simmons again, he crumpled under the pressure and listed Magic above Bird, he did so because he said Bird was "better" for a short period of time, but Magic had a longer stretch of being elite.  So he gave Magic the nod. 

Does this mean you will follow the opposite thinking, in that TMac's 3-4 year stretch (his peak) is more "valued" for lack of a better word, than someone with say, 10 solid solid seasons, although not elite like TMac.  Say a Chauncey type career.  Naw, Chauncey isn't a good one, hold on...........Pierce.  Pierce is perfect, he NEVER had 3 years like Tracy did, but overall, the length of his career was far greater than that of Tracy's, so which too you holds more weight? 

Even prior to KG and Ray, Pierce got them within a game of the finals with Walker as his sidekick.  So he's made multiple team runs, with 2 completely different teams. 

That to me is what makes these type breakdowns so much fun.  Neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong, it's all on how you look at a players career in broader terms. 

  

 

[651akathepaul]

Exactly.

Sometimes simple explains all you need to know. No need to delve any deeper than what we see and know on this one. It is what it is.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

I guess I rate Tracy more highly than most, primarily because at his peak, he demonstrated a rare mastery of the game over the course of a season that few have ever shown.

I can see that.  He had 3-4 years there that rival anybody, certainly.  So then to steal from Simmons again, he crumpled under the pressure and listed Magic above Bird, he did so because he said Bird was "better" for a short period of time, but Magic had a longer stretch of being elite.  So he gave Magic the nod. 

Does this mean you will follow the opposite thinking, in that TMac's 3-4 year stretch (his peak) is more "valued" for lack of a better word, than someone with say, 10 solid solid seasons, although not elite like TMac.  Say a Chauncey type career.  Naw, Chauncey isn't a good one, hold on...........Pierce.  Pierce is perfect, he NEVER had 3 years like Tracy did, but overall, the length of his career was far greater than that of Tracy's, so which too you holds more weight? 

Even prior to KG and Ray, Pierce got them within a game of the finals with Walker as his sidekick.  So he's made multiple team runs, with 2 completely different teams. 

That to me is what makes these type breakdowns so much fun.  Neither of us are right, neither of us are wrong, it's all on how you look at a players career in broader terms. 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

Winning a championship is an incredibly difficult task so it's hard to just say Wade 29 with a history of injuries is going to just win 4 more chips but it's possible. I already think Wade is better than Kobe ever was.

 

[swyftdahoe]

The idea that Steve Nash will finish as a top 50 player of all-time is just dumbfounding to me!

 

[swyftdahoe]

The idea that Steve Nash will finish as a top 50 player of all-time is just dumbfounding to me!

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

Winning a championship is an incredibly difficult task so it's hard to just say Wade 29 with a history of injuries is going to just win 4 more chips but it's possible. I already think Wade is better than Kobe ever was.

 

[youngtriz]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

as a heat fan... i really cant say yes or no.. i think that kobe is a pure scorer.. i real definition of a SG he can score in so many ways... wade is a all around player... wade does so many things on the court with his passing, steals, blocks, and now he is stepping up in rebounding.. you just dont see kobe going for as many blocks as wade or pass as much..

 

[youngtriz]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by PMatic

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

You're one of the most fair guys I know, Xtap made a comment the other day that Wade is better than Kobe ever was.  And that Wade's resume when all said and done will dwarf Kobe and Wade will take on the spot of second best SG of all time.  Do you see that?

Does anyone else agree?  

  

as a heat fan... i really cant say yes or no.. i think that kobe is a pure scorer.. i real definition of a SG he can score in so many ways... wade is a all around player... wade does so many things on the court with his passing, steals, blocks, and now he is stepping up in rebounding.. you just dont see kobe going for as many blocks as wade or pass as much..