NCAA Will Allow Trans Athletes: Lia Thomas Becomes 1st NCAA Transgender Champion

[IATT]

again we can all see what you cut out.

you're free to edit the post if that's not what you meant.

are white supremacist not involved?

but there are white supremacist heavily involved in the mechanism that got this to where it is and where it’s going

 

[WASHED KING]

What I find interesting is that there wasn't much controversy about gender-mixed sport activities (especially at lower levels) before the concept got centered around transgenderism.

Mixed-gender youth sports increasingly common despite controversy

The players on Carver High School’s girls’ soccer team say senior Kevin Ginnety fits right in — he’s just “one of the girls,” his team captain says — even if he is a boy.

m.washingtontimes.com

I specifically remember football (American) being targeted for more inclusion of girls at lower levels since there are no female football programs to speak of.

The fact that the above has never really taken center stage in the political discussion (but transgender athletes have) is indicative that parent concerns may have been amplified in order to be coopted by the usual suspects.

Coed sports at lower levels is a non issue and is actually pretty common across many rec leagues in multiple sports until children get older.

 

[IATT]

Coed sports at lower levels is a non issue and is actually pretty common across many rec leagues in multiple sports until children get older.

I’ve been to a bunch of swim meets where for certain events they’ll just combine everyone because of low entries in those events

usually the long distance events (800 and 1500 free) or certain other events like the 200 fly or 400 IM

the medals aren’t allocated on that basis.. but depending on the number entries they’ll combine age groups or genders

 

[gry60]

Coed sports at lower levels is a non issue and is actually pretty common across many rec leagues in multiple sports until children get older.

You're going around my point, which is that society is able to make allowances for gender mixing in sports.

And it's not just children who participate in mixed-gender sports. Adults do too.

this is like saying "there was no controversy about people in different weight classes sparring"

It's also not something that happens in non-competitive sports. The article I posted refers to numerous examples of mixed high school teams.

so? you guys keep saying this like it means anything

It does?

You love going on and on about the sanctity of gender segregation in sports when mixed competitive teams have always been around at various amateur levels (without much controversy). One has to wonder about the authenticity of the concern for fairness in women's sports.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You're going around my point, which is that society is able to make allowances for gender mixing in sports.

And it's not just children who participate in mixed-gender sports. Adults do too.



It's also not something that happens in non-competitive sports. The article I posted refers to numerous examples of mixed high school teams.


It does?

You love going on and on about the sanctity of gender segregation in sports when mixed competitive teams have always been around at various amateur levels (without much controversy). One has to wonder about the authenticity of the concern for fairness in women's sports.

???

"You love going on about the sanctity of not kicking during a boxing matches, when Kickboxing has always been around"

If you want to abolish gender segregation sports fine just say that.

But of course if you violate a principle their will be more controversy than if you follow a principle.

 

[gry60]

If you want to abolish gender segregation sports fine just say that.

Abolish? Did you miss the part about high school competitions already allowing mixed gender teams to participate? What's there to abolish?

But of course if you violate a principle their will be more controversy than if you follow a principle.

That's the thing though. There hasn't been that much controversy (if any) about such teams until Republicans decided to make transgenderism a political wedge issue.

And y'all fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Abolish? Did you miss the part about high school competitions already allowing mixed gender teams to participate? What's there to abolish?

That's the thing though. There hasn't been that much controversy (if any) about such teams until Republicans decided to make transgenderism a political wedge issue.

And y'all fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

Because allowing mixed gender sport does not mean you must allow men in female segregated sports.

The fact that people kick in Kickboxing is not relevant to whether you should be allowed to kick in regular boxing.

Two different sports.

No one fell for anything. Not everyone is partisan brained.
Republicans being bad is not a reason to accept absurd arguments.

 

[gry60]

Because allowing mixed gender sport does not mean you must allow men in female segregated sports.

Again, this has been happening both ways: men in women's sports, and women in men's sports.

There's nothing partisan about pointing out that none of this used to be controversial until the focus was turned on trans people. If women's sports was the protected class you assume it is, we would have heard about dudes filling up spots in those girls high school teams a long, long time ago.

The only absurd thing here is you refusing to accept that this controversy is manufactured by people who don't give a **** about women's sports.

 

[1995]

maybe im reading it wrong but that's what is sounds like.

the way i read it, "it's justifiable to pay less attention to reasonable concerns, because republicans are acting badly."

but you can correct me if im wrong.

I don't even really know how to respond to this but yes you're wrong and that's not what I was saying at all

 

[WASHED KING]

You're going around my point, which is that society is able to make allowances for gender mixing in sports.

And it's not just children who participate in mixed-gender sports. Adults do too.



It's also not something that happens in non-competitive sports. The article I posted refers to numerous examples of mixed high school teams.


It does?

You love going on and on about the sanctity of gender segregation in sports when mixed competitive teams have always been around at various amateur levels (without much controversy). One has to wonder about the authenticity of the concern for fairness in women's sports.

You’re right the genders mix in sports when it’s RECREATIONAL SPORTS.

Comparing youth and adult rec leagues to NCAA and professional level sport competition is WILD. Especially when scholarships and actual money is on the line.

You can’t be serious.

 

[WASHED KING]

While I was in high school our team didn’t have enough women to form a soccer team so the girls who wanted to play, played with us on the mens team and we played against all mens teams.

Why didnt we play against the all women teams?

Yes some Republicans are making terrible arguments and are using this as an excuse to attack transpeople but just to defy them does not mean we should throw out common sense.

 

[gry60]

You’re right the genders mix in sports when it’s RECREATIONAL SPORTS.

Glad that the goal posts are moving from "men and women don't ever play organized sports together" to "only when it's recreational."

Comparing youth and adult rec leagues to NCAA and professional level sport competition is WILD. Especially when scholarships and actual money is on the line.

You can’t be serious.

We're talking about financial rewards/incentives?

Women Playing Men

www.topendsports.com

At the summer Olympic Games there are two sports where men and women compete directly against each other, in equestrian and in one of the sailing events. In both of these sports, performance is not limited by physical abilities, skill is the predominant attribute for success.

The Women Succeeding in a Men’s Professional Baseball League

The Sonoma Stompers signed female players earlier this summer. Over the weekend, the team won the league title.

www.newyorker.com

She and Whitmore débuted with the Stompers on July 1st, becoming the first female teammates in a men’s professional baseball league since Connie Morgan and Mamie (Peanut) Johnson played for the Negro Leagues’ Indianapolis Clowns in the nineteen-fifties.

Woman plays in men's professional indoor soccer league

Carolina Jamarillo is the first woman in Mexico to play professionally alongside men, according to the league.

www.desertsun.com

Why are elite female footballers barred from playing with men?

The case of Canadian footballer Stephanie Labbé raises the question of why football is segregated by gender

www.wired.co.uk

Earlier this year, Canadian goalkeeper Stephanie Labbé was looking for a new team to train with. Having played for women’s teams in Europe and the US, and come home with a bronze medal from the Rio 2016 Olympics, she felt ready for a new challenge. “I just had this drive, this determination to do something different and to take my career in a different direction,” she says. Her plan? To find a men’s team instead. Growing up, Labbé played ice hockey, and she looked up to female players such as Hayley Wickenheiser, who played for men’s leagues in Finland and Sweden. “I started thinking about that in soccer, but no one’s ever really done that in the soccer world,” she says. “I thought, why not me?”

It's not hard to search "women athletes in men's leagues," and the results are not empty.

It just seems to me that the hang-ups about sports and mixing genders have more to do with where men think women's sports ought to be (below men's sports).

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Glad that the goal posts are moving from "men and women don't ever play organized sports together" to "only when it's recreational."

We're talking about financial rewards/incentives?

Women Playing Men

www.topendsports.com

The Women Succeeding in a Men’s Professional Baseball League

The Sonoma Stompers signed female players earlier this summer. Over the weekend, the team won the league title.

www.newyorker.com

Woman plays in men's professional indoor soccer league

Carolina Jamarillo is the first woman in Mexico to play professionally alongside men, according to the league.

www.desertsun.com

Why are elite female footballers barred from playing with men?

The case of Canadian footballer Stephanie Labbé raises the question of why football is segregated by gender

www.wired.co.uk

It's not hard to search "women athletes in men's leagues," and the results are not empty.

It just seems to me that the hang-ups about sports and mixing genders have more to do with where men think women's sports ought to be (below men's sports).

???
Dude you can't be serious.

The "female" catagory is the protected class. Not the male catagory.

Nobody has a problem with women in mens sports

In the same way that no one is mad when a disabled football player like Shaqeum Grifith competes in a non special Olympic sports.

But people would have a problem, with an able body athlete competing I. The special Olympics.


Again once the trans issue comes up some people just embrace absurdity. I don't get it.

Why can't we say trans people diesevere dignity and accomodation and not embrace wild nonsense.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Again, this has been happening both ways: men in women's sports, and women in men's sports.

There's nothing partisan about pointing out that none of this used to be controversial until the focus was turned on trans people. If women's sports was the protected class you assume it is, we would have heard about dudes filling up spots in those girls high school teams a long, long time ago.

The only absurd thing here is you refusing to accept that this controversy is manufactured by people who don't give a **** about women's sports.

Keep believing that.

Trans rights organization did research on various issues including trans women in sports.

They found that the only issue they couldn't find a decent pursuasive argument. When talking to even Democrats was the trans sports issues.

This was before all of the Republican laws.

We have had a massive increase in gender ideology in mainstream culture. We are seeing huge growth in transgender identification.

Republicans aren't magic they didn't completely manufacture this out of whole cloth.

You are so partisan brained you can't seem to fathom that this issue just fundamentally offends most peoples sense of fairness.


Republicans are seizing on this because it's fundamentally unpopular. They didn't manufacture the unpopularity.

You can pull out all the one off cases of woman competing in sailing competitions. And none of it is going to pursaude anyone.
It just makes you look unserious.

 

[IATT]

FINA dealt with the issue last year after lia Thomas swam in the ncaa championship

World swimming bans transgender athletes from women's events

BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — World swimming’s governing body has effectively banned transgender women from competing in women’s events, starting Monday. FINA members widely adopted a new “gender inclusion policy” on Sunday that only permits swimmers who transitioned before age 12 to compete in...

apnews.com

 

[gry60]

You are so partisan brained you can't seem to fathom that this issue just fundamentally offends most peoples sense of fairness

I am questioning the basis of this "fairness," especially when it demands the disqualification of world-class athletes who take advantage of their genetic defects while male athletes get props for their advantageous genetic abnormalities. Imagine if Michael Phelps was banned from swimming because he generates an abnormally low level of lactic acid. Noooo, that's awesome. Apparently, you can't see the double standard.

It's also telling that you haven't addressed why we haven't heard much about men joining women's teams, or why the Football Association allows men and women to play together until they turn 18, and then mandates the separation of the two groups along male/female lines.

We have had a massive increase in gender ideology in mainstream culture. We are seeing huge growth in transgender identification.

You tell me why this is a problem, because this sentence reads like it's a problem for you. The gheys are too visible these days...

What it comes down to is that you guys are willing to disregard a lot of aspects to essentially call these people cheaters, and I chuckle at the absurdity of growing boobs just to have a shot at a professional career in women's sports (or worse, a scholarship). That's stupid.

Republicans are seizing on this because it's fundamentally unpopular

Unpopularity alone doesn't make something inherently wrong. Unwillingness to do something doesn't mean that doing it is wrong. All the arguments I've seen so far about the way sports are categorized are not convincing enough to make me reconsider the idea that we could and should explore ways to include trans folks in competitive sports.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I am questioning the basis of this "fairness," especially when it demands the disqualification of world-class athletes who take advantage of their genetic defects while male athletes get props for their advantageous genetic abnormalities. Imagine if Michael Phelps was banned from swimming because he generates an abnormally low level of lactic acid. Noooo, that's awesome. Apparently, you can't see the double standard.

I've heard all these 101 arguments bad trans activist talking points before.
We discriminate in sports when the category is decisive in terms of victory.

we have weight class because all things being equal a heavyweight will beat a similarly skilled flyweight.

just because we discriminate against come differences doesn't mean we have to discriminate against all differences.

again this is all really obvious stuff, but if you abandon the talking points.

It's also telling that you haven't addressed why we haven't heard much about men joining women's teams, or why the Football Association allows men and women to play together until they turn 18, and then mandates the separation of the two groups along male/female lines.

there are a whole bunch of obvious reasons why you might do that.

1. women are the protected category not men. so keeping women out of mens sports is a not a particularly pressing issue.
2. the longer you are exposed to male levels of testosterone. (and it peaks around 18-19) the bigger the gaps in performance and size. bigger safety risk for a female competitors.

You tell me why this is a problem, because this sentence reads like it's a problem for you. The gheys are too visible these days...

What it comes down to is that you guys are willing to disregard a lot of aspects to essentially call these people cheaters, and I chuckle at the absurdity of growing boobs just to have a shot at a professional career in women's sports (or worse, a scholarship). That's stupid.

I didn't say any of that, you are just making up a straw man bigot to get mad at.

you can think that trans people deserve dignity and respect,
and not buy into goofy arguments. trust me. you can it's possible.

Unpopularity alone doesn't make something inherently wrong. Unwillingness to do something doesn't mean that doing it is wrong. All the arguments I've seen so far about the way sports are categorized are not convincing enough to make me reconsider the idea that we could and should explore ways to include trans folks in competitive sports.

I didn't say that it did. the point about popularity is it's not simply manufactured by republicans, hate it or love most people find the idea unfair. republicans are seizing on existing public septimate.

If you think we should get rid of women's sports, fine just say that.
If you want to include trans women despite the unfairness. cool, minds can differ.

but just give it up with the self evidently silly talking points.

"michael phelps has long arms, so therefore you must allow men in women's sports!"

"don't you realize that a women competed in a mens sailing competition? so obviously we must allow males in female sports."

"we must allow males in female sports because something something intersex!"

"i mean male and female? its all a spectrum anyways!!"

none of it is even slightly convincing. and most of it is absurd on its face.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

it's always the same talking points;

- Michael Phelps has a long torso! males must be allowed in women's sports!

- Did you know a woman once won a amatuer race walking comeptition?
men and women are basically the same!

- republicans are bad so obviously males should be allowed in women's sports.

- did you know that .001% of the population has a disorder of sexual development that has nothing to do with trans people?
so clearly males should be in women's sports.

- did you know that some women are taller than some men?
so really who cares if males compete in female sports!

 

[witnesskb24]

I am questioning the basis of this "fairness," especially when it demands the disqualification of world-class athletes who take advantage of their genetic defects while male athletes get props for their advantageous genetic abnormalities. Imagine if Michael Phelps was banned from swimming because he generates an abnormally low level of lactic acid. Noooo, that's awesome. Apparently, you can't see the double standard.

That’s what we calling it now?

 

[WASHED KING]

Lets just eliminate all genders for sports and throw everyone in a big pot. Let the best athletes win. Since there isn't any biological advantages present in being born male.

 

[IATT]

was anyone actually aware that swimming's governing body had already changed the rules?



i just assumed because of the continued ongoing conversation, especially involving the swimmer from university of kentucky who was on tucker's show, that FINA hadnt changed the rules

but under the current rules, lia thomas wouldnt be allowed to swim in that meet

 

[gry60]

I've heard all these 101 arguments bad trans activist talking points before.
We discriminate in sports when the category is decisive in terms of victory.

we have weight class because all things being equal a heavyweight will beat a similarly skilled flyweight.

Not all sports are combat sports. In fact, most sports are NOT combat sports, and they allow a wide range of physical profiles to share the court, pitch, and field. This is like saying that there should be a height class in basketball.

just because we discriminate against come differences doesn't mean we have to discriminate against all differences.

again this is all really obvious stuff, but if you abandon the talking points.



there are a whole bunch of obvious reasons why you might do that.

1. women are the protected category not men. so keeping women out of mens sports is a not a particularly pressing issue.
2. the longer you are exposed to male levels of testosterone. (and it peaks around 18-19) the bigger the gaps in performance and size. bigger safety risk for a female competitors.

How big?
Because once again, a lot of that depends on the activity you're looking at. Performance is not solely independent on physical abilities. In contact sports, there are rules against foul play, and those can and have changed to minimize the risk of harm. In extreme long distance running, the gap between men and women is closing. Are we gonna make men a protected class in this sport?

I didn't say any of that, you are just making up a straw man bigot to get mad at.

What's the relevance of mentioning that more people feel comfortable identifying as trans? You made yourself sound like a bigot.

I didn't say that it did. the point about popularity is it's not simply manufactured by republicans, hate it or love most people find the idea unfair. republicans are seizing on existing public septimate.

The attention is manufactured.

Very little attention has been given to mixed-gender teams because they didn't involve trans people. The attention to trans folks in athletics latches onto the general apprehension that folks have when it comes to that crowd, and Republicans have been beating that drum literally every night and day on TV, in papers, online, etc...

Mixed teams have been a thing in this country (and elsewhere) for a long time, and this never went past the local news. We know what the difference is.

just give it up with the self evidently silly talking points

Oh please!

I can't force you to acknowledge that you're wrong about the sacrosanct separation of genders in sports. But the proof is here.

I can't force you to acknowledge that we have double standards when it comes to judging performance based on biological anomalies in men's vs women's sports, but the proof is here (Semenya).

Classification in sports is based on an outdated understanding of mankind's capabilities that is solely related to their reproductive organs. I think there is room to reexamine that, and I don't think a few trans women competing will kill women's sports.

 

[gry60]

That’s what we calling it now?

When Mother Nature Does the Doping

What exactly does "fairness" in sports mean?

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[witnesskb24]

Mixed gender team sports or nowhere near the same as trans men competing against biological women

Your reaches are hilarious though I’ll give you that

 

[gry60]

Mixed gender team sports or nowhere near the same as trans men competing against biological women

Your reaches are hilarious though I’ll give you that

Since we have to post quotes (because y'all don't open links)

The gender gap in elite distance running Of course, when you compare the fastest men in the world with the fastest women in the world, the men are still markedly quicker, but this misses the point. The debate is whether the performance of the average woman is catching up to that of the average man, and that appears to be true. Even when you look at the elites, however, you can see how quickly the women have been catching up. Since 1970, the men’s marathon record has been lowered by about six minutes. By contrast, during that time the women’s record has fallen by more than 45 minutes. In ultra-endurance events, as we’ve seen, this gap appears to be closing even more rapidly.

Take, for example, British runner Jasmin Paris. In 2019 she won the gruelling 268-mile Montane Spine Race outright. Not only did she beat all the women and men, but she broke the women’s record by more than 24 hours and the men’s by more than 12 hours. Even more impressive, she had recently had a baby, and was making frequent stops to express breastmilk throughout the race.

Hopefully they catch up soon to put this nonsensical debate to bed.