New Orleans Saints engaged in bounty program ... UPDATE 9/7: Saints Players Win Appeal!!! Will play

I'm not mad at them for the bounty.. I think all teams have their own version

I'm mad they got caught, must be a mole in the Saints organization
 
Football is football and Favre definitely captured how i feel

but thinking back to the saints v. vikings and you can remember vividly how it LOOKED like people were trying to INJURE Favre

you are naive to think that in the absence of this little bounty system that the same shots would have been taken at Favre's legs
 
Originally Posted by ksprull

I'm not mad at them for the bounty.. I think all teams have their own version

I'm mad they got caught, must be a mole in the Saints organization
Yup.
Y'all find it "despicable" that a linebacker upped the ante for his teammates to take out an opposing quarterback?


Its comical
 
The Bucs actually did something similar like this last season, but it was just for getting a tackle. The pot is still full for next season.
 
Originally Posted by SFC415

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by SFC415

You don't play to intentionally injure another player. Only a classless @#$@$ would do that. what happens if the QB ends up getting a career/life ending injury? You're basically telling these players to take out the QB by any means necessary (hence the dirty hits on Farve). I guess it's all good just so all the wimps and obese dudes watching the games at home can get excited
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There IS such a thing called proper tackling technique, which is taught throughout REAL football high schools/colleges. Just cause "many guys do it" doesn't make it right.

And only a loser squad would try to win a game by forcing the other team to play their backups. Where's the pride in beating a team that doesn't have its most important players on the field? You're basically admitting that your team is inferior
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Homie, either hits are within the rules or outside of the rules.  If they're outside the rules, then they will (or should) be penalized on the field and fined later on.  They may or may not be dirty.  If the hits are not illegal, then it's simply a hard hit... move on.  So if they're breaking the rules they will suffer the consequences.  If not, then that's football.  I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand.

It has nothing to do with people sitting at home watching other than the fact that they are the reason football players get paid to play a violent game for millions of dollars.  I could give a damn about the feelings of the "fans."

As for a team being a "loser squad" by "forcing the other team to play their backups," I guess basketball teams should stop trying to get the other team's best players in foul trouble then right?  That's admitting that your team is inferior right?

At first thought, no one likes the idea of people consciously going onto the football field to literally injure people... but that's essentially what every defensive player does week in and week out throughout the league.  THIS IS NOTHING NEW.  If you watch football and think that that's classless or outrageous then maybe you're watching the wrong sport...
Just because it's nothing new, doesn't mean it's right. Like I said, haven't you seen the state of the players who used to play viciously back in the day? If your son played football, would you want them to end up like them? I agree with you that there are legal hard hits which are unavoidable, but if you're giving incentives to injure other players, don't you think dirty/illegal hits are gonna take place as well? It's like saying, "It's OK if you give that QB a helmet to helmet hit, give him a concussion, and knock him out of the game...it doesn't matter if you get fined, cause we're gonna give you $ for it anyways"
The basketball foul trouble is different. A player gets into foul trouble because he's being a dumb @#$ on the court. You can "persuade" him to commit stupid fouls, but no ones forcing him out of the game.

If you acknowledge that it's "nothing new," then why the outrage?

Once again, "dirty" hits (a very subjective term) are going to take place with or without technical "bounties."  Some of these hits are going to be technically legal and some will be technically illegal.  Those which are illegal should warrant a penalty and a fine.  But people are going to get paid for injuring opposing players anyway.  If a DE is known as a QB "killer" who has the potential to knock opposing teams' QBs out of games, teams in the league will pursue him for that reason.  His salary will increase because of this reputation.  So once again, this same "bounty" system is built into the very fabric of the league.

My point with the basketball example was to counter your assertion that it is somehow cowardly to want to neutralize the opposing team's best players by keeping them off of the court or playing field.
 
But I don't know if you can have an official pay system set up by the team (or D coordinator in this case). I believe this is what JP was stressing and I'm changing my thinking and agree with him in that point. I'm all for physical play, I'm fine with players doing this unofficially (I think this is common), but it gets dicey once teams (Williams) establish this and it almost becomes a supplemental paycheck. Williams contributing to the pool of money is a problem. We need to see all the details and reports before fully knowing what happened and was occurring but the NFL is going to come down hard.
 
The Saints couldn't even tackle anyone this past season. Their players who gave up touchdown after touchdown after touchdown need to work the fundamentals of defensive football rather than knocking someone out of the game.
 
Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by SFC415

Originally Posted by red mpls


Homie, either hits are within the rules or outside of the rules.  If they're outside the rules, then they will (or should) be penalized on the field and fined later on.  They may or may not be dirty.  If the hits are not illegal, then it's simply a hard hit... move on.  So if they're breaking the rules they will suffer the consequences.  If not, then that's football.  I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand.

It has nothing to do with people sitting at home watching other than the fact that they are the reason football players get paid to play a violent game for millions of dollars.  I could give a damn about the feelings of the "fans."

As for a team being a "loser squad" by "forcing the other team to play their backups," I guess basketball teams should stop trying to get the other team's best players in foul trouble then right?  That's admitting that your team is inferior right?

At first thought, no one likes the idea of people consciously going onto the football field to literally injure people... but that's essentially what every defensive player does week in and week out throughout the league.  THIS IS NOTHING NEW.  If you watch football and think that that's classless or outrageous then maybe you're watching the wrong sport...
Just because it's nothing new, doesn't mean it's right. Like I said, haven't you seen the state of the players who used to play viciously back in the day? If your son played football, would you want them to end up like them? I agree with you that there are legal hard hits which are unavoidable, but if you're giving incentives to injure other players, don't you think dirty/illegal hits are gonna take place as well? It's like saying, "It's OK if you give that QB a helmet to helmet hit, give him a concussion, and knock him out of the game...it doesn't matter if you get fined, cause we're gonna give you $ for it anyways"
The basketball foul trouble is different. A player gets into foul trouble because he's being a dumb @#$ on the court. You can "persuade" him to commit stupid fouls, but no ones forcing him out of the game.

If you acknowledge that it's "nothing new," then why the outrage?

Once again, "dirty" hits (a very subjective term) are going to take place with or without technical "bounties."  Some of these hits are going to be technically legal and some will be technically illegal.  Those which are illegal should warrant a penalty and a fine.  But people are going to get paid for injuring opposing players anyway.  If a DE is known as a QB "killer" who has the potential to knock opposing teams' QBs out of games, teams in the league will pursue him for that reason.  His salary will increase because of this reputation.  So once again, this same "bounty" system is built into the very fabric of the league.

My point with the basketball example was to counter your assertion that it is somehow cowardly to want to neutralize the opposing team's best players by keeping them off of the court or playing field.
The "outrage" is because over the past few years, some of us know that what we used to enjoy isn't good for players' health. You have dudes who played dying in their 40s and 50s or living with permanent brain damage from being hit by players trying to injure them. You should ask THEM "why the outrage", since they're the ones suing the NFL. How is dirty a subjective term? Even in high school, good coaches teach their players how to tackle properly. You CAN take down another player without launching into his helmet or going for his knees. A big hit to the torso is ALOT different from a big hit to the head. Injuries can happen in many ways; would you rather get broken ribs or have your knees taken out and not be able to play again? You're refusing to acknowledge the fact that getting incentives to injure players leads to illegal/dirty hits. I mean, the Favre @#$% is so damn obvious now if you rewatch the game.

The whole point of MMA is to destroy your opponent, but there's still limits on what you can do. Why should the NFL be any different?
 
Now the ******** are being investigated? Screw the injuries... any ******* getting paid more than his base salary is a travesty in itself.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/co...ington-********-bounties
 
^^^ lol

the Cowboys need to get meaner and implement a "legal hit" scheme like this...
 
Originally Posted by SFC415

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by SFC415

Just because it's nothing new, doesn't mean it's right. Like I said, haven't you seen the state of the players who used to play viciously back in the day? If your son played football, would you want them to end up like them? I agree with you that there are legal hard hits which are unavoidable, but if you're giving incentives to injure other players, don't you think dirty/illegal hits are gonna take place as well? It's like saying, "It's OK if you give that QB a helmet to helmet hit, give him a concussion, and knock him out of the game...it doesn't matter if you get fined, cause we're gonna give you $ for it anyways"
The basketball foul trouble is different. A player gets into foul trouble because he's being a dumb @#$ on the court. You can "persuade" him to commit stupid fouls, but no ones forcing him out of the game.

If you acknowledge that it's "nothing new," then why the outrage?

Once again, "dirty" hits (a very subjective term) are going to take place with or without technical "bounties."  Some of these hits are going to be technically legal and some will be technically illegal.  Those which are illegal should warrant a penalty and a fine.  But people are going to get paid for injuring opposing players anyway.  If a DE is known as a QB "killer" who has the potential to knock opposing teams' QBs out of games, teams in the league will pursue him for that reason.  His salary will increase because of this reputation.  So once again, this same "bounty" system is built into the very fabric of the league.

My point with the basketball example was to counter your assertion that it is somehow cowardly to want to neutralize the opposing team's best players by keeping them off of the court or playing field.
The "outrage" is because over the past few years, some of us know that what we used to enjoy isn't good for players' health. You have dudes who played dying in their 40s and 50s or living with permanent brain damage from being hit by players trying to injure them. You should ask THEM "why the outrage", since they're the ones suing the NFL. How is dirty a subjective term? Even in high school, good coaches teach their players how to tackle properly. You CAN take down another player without launching into his helmet or going for his knees. A big hit to the torso is ALOT different from a big hit to the head. Injuries can happen in many ways; would you rather get broken ribs or have your knees taken out and not be able to play again? You're refusing to acknowledge the fact that getting incentives to injure players leads to illegal/dirty hits. I mean, the Favre @#$% is so damn obvious now if you rewatch the game.

The whole point of MMA is to destroy your opponent, but there's still limits on what you can do. Why should the NFL be any different?

I never said there shouldn't be limits on what players can and can't do.  If people are breaking the rules on the field, they should be penalized and fined for doing so.  I believe I stated that in every one of my posts.

I have no qualms with the NFL taking steps to make the game safer for players.  None.  But if people are not breaking the rules established by the league, then I see no problem with what they are doing.  If they are breaking the rules, then they should suffer the consequences like I have stated numerous times.

My point is that whether there is an "incentive" in the sense that they are discussing with regards to the Saints or not, there are incentives to hurt opposing players simply due to the nature of how the NFL is set up.  Goodell and the entire league have benefited from this dynamic for decades.  Now they want to act "holier than thou?"  I'm not buying it.  Just like when Selig acted all shocked and outraged about steroids in baseball when it was obviously happening for years before it became a story.  Selig and the entire MLB knowingly made millions and millions of dollars off of the existence of steroids in baseball then acted like they had no clue what was going on and were demonized the players.

Look at how cowardly Goodell acted in light of the "Spygate" scandal.  A TRUE scandal that TRULY impacted the outcomes of not only multiple games but multiple seasons and Super Bowls.  He covered it up and was a straight coward about the situation because he didn't want the scandal of football's only dynasty of the last decade-plus (and what had become, in many ways, "America's (new) team") to taint those championships and the league.  Now something comes out that's much more minor, even commonplace and intuitively part of the game, and watch how outraged and shocked he will act.  Now he'll try to "get in front" of this and "come down hard" on the Saints because this is an easy target.

Straight bull #$@#.
 
Imagine if they took away first round Picks from those teams. ******** lose a chance at RGIII.
 
Originally Posted by Buc Em

The Bucs actually did something similar like this last season, but it was just for getting a tackle. The pot is still full for next season.
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Originally Posted by RetroBaller

Imagine if they took away first round Picks from those teams. ******** lose a chance at RGIII.

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+%$% 'em
 
Originally Posted by TraSoul82

Now the ******** are being investigated? Screw the injuries... any ******* getting paid more than his base salary is a travesty in itself.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/co...ington-********-bounties


  
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Godell is going to throw the book at Williams & Loomis specifically for lying during the initial investigation. The Saints are definitely going to lose their first pick in this draft (I don't think they have a first round this year) & I could see them being suspended for a minimum of 1 year. Payton will get about 2-4 games.
 
Originally Posted by RetroBaller

Imagine if they took away first round Picks from those teams. ******** lose a chance at RGIII.


%!@$ the ********.

They deserve this IF it happens.
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Do you losers still want to defend this? If you don't see the gambling implications with this, you're either blind or delusional.
http://mike-freeman.blogs...s/entry/6264363/35066335

An NFL memo to all of its clubs details yet more of what is becoming one of the biggest sports scandals in recent NFL history. Details of the memo were obtained by me from a team official. Here is a summary of what parts of the memo states.

Funds for the Saints bounty system, the memo states, weren't solely contributed by players. People close to the Saints team contributed as well. One was a felon: Michael Ornstein.

Ornstein was once Reggie Bush's marketing agent and is close friends with Saints coach Sean Payton. Ornstein spent time in prison for fraud and the Saints -- somewhat -- have cut ties with Ornstein.

But in 2009 Ornstein was a fixture around the Saints site. The NFL memo to teams state that then Ornstein pledged $10,000 towards the quarterback bounty in 2009.

Then, on at least two occasions in 2011, Ornstein again contributed to a bounty fund on an opposing quarterback.

The NFL memo also states there was a bounty paper trail. Ornstein put details of the bounty system in an e-mail to Payton, according to the NFL memo. In that e-mail, Ornstein committed $5,000 towards yet another bounty.

This just gets worse and worse for the Saints. 
 
Originally Posted by DaJoka004

Do you losers still want to defend this? If you don't see the gambling implications with this, you're either blind or delusional.
http://mike-freeman.blogs...s/entry/6264363/35066335

An NFL memo to all of its clubs details yet more of what is becoming one of the biggest sports scandals in recent NFL history. Details of the memo were obtained by me from a team official. Here is a summary of what parts of the memo states.

Funds for the Saints bounty system, the memo states, weren't solely contributed by players. People close to the Saints team contributed as well. One was a felon: Michael Ornstein.

Ornstein was once Reggie Bush's marketing agent and is close friends with Saints coach Sean Payton. Ornstein spent time in prison for fraud and the Saints -- somewhat -- have cut ties with Ornstein.

But in 2009 Ornstein was a fixture around the Saints site. The NFL memo to teams state that then Ornstein pledged $10,000 towards the quarterback bounty in 2009.

Then, on at least two occasions in 2011, Ornstein again contributed to a bounty fund on an opposing quarterback.

The NFL memo also states there was a bounty paper trail. Ornstein put details of the bounty system in an e-mail to Payton, according to the NFL memo. In that e-mail, Ornstein committed $5,000 towards yet another bounty.

This just gets worse and worse for the Saints. 


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Wow...

Never considered the gambling implications behind these bounties...the fact that some of the money is coming from felons NOT associated with the NFL is pretty damning.  This is a huge black eye to the league. 

As far as the Skins, I think they escape with just a fine. 
 
Another overlooked piece. Who's to say he didn't pony up a little extra in the playoffs to see certain guys go down? I'd be pretty comfortable making bets if I knew the defense was targeting Warner and Favre because I threw in a couple of extra stacks.
http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/35073385

Sean Payton, coach of the New Orleans Saints and now in the middle of one of the biggest scandals in NFL history, wrote a book several years ago called "Home Team." Nothing special about it. Not all that good. It details Payton's rise in the NFL and how the Saints won the Super Bowl. Now, in light of this scandal, the book has become extremely important.

Mainly because it does three things. One, it shows just how extensive a control freak Payton is. So any type of defense that he didn't know simply won't fly. Payton is one of the most detail-oriented coaches in the sport. Second, several passages of the book demonstrate Payton doesn't really give a damn about NFL rules. Now, that's not unusual for a head coach but again, with the bounty investigation, that notion takes on an entirely new meaning.

Third, and most important, it goes into extensive detail about Payton's relationship with one of the central and most shadowy figures from this scandal and that's felon Mike Ornstein who is a close friend of Payton's and, according to NFL documents, himself contributed cash to the bounty pool.

One of the more relevant passages starts on page 231. It describes how Payton had Ornstein handle a lot of the Super Bowl preparation. It reads: “I had Mike Ornstein running special ops. Mike had no official title with the Saints. His name appeared nowhere on the team payroll or organizational chart. But he played an absolutely crucial role in the Saints’ Super Bowl victory, and hardly anybody knows what he did…More than anyone else I know, he understands how to get things done in the pro-sports world. He also has a taste for mischief…Now he was a close friend of mine and a great asset to the team, flying into Miami and softening up the off-field for us.
 
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