**Official '11 NYK LOCKOUT thread*** lockout over

Originally Posted by ATGD7154xBBxMZ

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

You know whats really annoying?

When people say the defense is mostly effort, it's @$%%@##$.

It's a skill, it's an ability, that some people have some people don't, It's a combination of BB IQ and quickness, sure effort is involved like it is in all of basketball but defense is as much of skill as offense is.
So when I hear on the radio Knicks people saying defense is just effort and oh Dantoni needs to make them give more effort. What? The personel James Doalan has assembled can't guard anyone. PERIOD. They aren't good enough to do it, it isn't scheeme it isn't effort, they simply are NOT good at it.

Dantoni is comepletly overrated as an offensive coach, the if you were to write the Mike D'antoni system book the first page would be"give Steve Nash the ball and relax" the rest of it would be blank but as a defensive coach even though he was constantly saddled with mediocre defensive talent he got the most out of them and there defense improved every year until they were the 13th best defense in the L. D'antoni in europe as a player was a defensive guy, thorughout europe he was know for his defense and his ability to cause turnovers, he was known for that when he coached there too, you really think he doesn't know anything about defense?
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Found it
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A lot of truth though.
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Originally Posted by DubA169

off the top of my head chandler, felton, douglas, turiaf, shedon williams, randolph, jeffieries, darko are all phsyically capable of playing defense.

it's ridiculous to say the knicks haven't had anybody that can be taught proper team defense
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I'm not saying they aren't capable of being taught it or learn it. I'm saying it rests more on them to actually do it. Look at the defensive effort in the last game compared to the losing streak. Playing defense for a quarter or two compared to playing the whole game, except one play (Jeffries
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). It's only so much a coach can do when it comes to a players effort. Bench them, okay but the team loses anyway. Witht his team it's not like they're being subbed in for guys whoa re going to try harder and most times they have less athletic ability and bball iq.

At most you can get out of this team is decent team defense with the likelihood of being in the penalty every quarter especially if the opposing team isn't shooting badly.

Then you have to add in the fact we do not have a defensive leader no KGs or TAs here to even motivate the other role players to step up. Expecting Melo and STAT to be that consistently every night is laughable when they've consistently been mediocre defenders.
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by ATGD7154xBBxMZ

^This team not having actual defenders or defensive leaders is a bigger part in why we suck at defense than the coach. Pringles actually got Phoenix to play decent team defense when he coached them and whether you believe it or not nobody is going to make Steve Nash a better defender.

So maybe Thibbs could teach a guy like Landry but if you past 24 imo you don't get coached on defense and suddenly become better. You already have the mindset to put in effort and hustle. If not, after that point the coach can only add in incentives for you to play defense like Thibbs does with Rose.

I think it was Osh that had a post in the season thread with the stats to back it up.
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if Thibbs wouldn't be able to teach them defense, then I'm really curious as to what a coach's job is.

seriously what is it? If it's all about the players, what is a coach's job? to look good in a suit? to talk to the media?

yes individual defense is a skill but TEAM defense is about effort and a good game plan.  Rose, Boozer, and Korver are bad defenders. But somehow Thibbs got them to buy into the team defense and it works

Pierce had the same things said about him as Melo. Can't play defense, he's a selfish ballhog, not a winner. Nobody ever called Ray Allen a good defender. Yet somehow They are now part of that amazing Celtics defense.

Dantoni has had three different cores and they have all played some of the worst defense I have ever seen. To the point where a high school coach would do a better job. They don't know how to defend the pick and roll. They switch on everything. Jared Jefferies the defensive stopper doesn't even put his hands up. How in the world is his brother qulaified to the defensive assistant?
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Along with Thibbs I'd say KG had a lot to do with that as well as TA and Posey when they were on the team. You take away defensive leaders that'll hold their teammates accountable you're not getting the same results. That'd be the same for Noah and Bogans on the Bulls. They already had defensively skilled guys there to help that cause. This entire Knicks season we've never had a player that said forget the offense let me focus my entire effort on defense and get the team behind me on that end.

I wanted Jeffries but I can't even mention him when it comes to defense on that last play guarding JRich so he just goes in that category of a guy like Turiaf as far as effort and hustle but with less results due to bonehead plays.

As far as Pringles I don't believe he doesn't have some defensive scheme set in place that he's taught the team. I've seen the dude yelling when bad defensive plays happen so I can't just assume he doesn't care about defense.
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

Originally Posted by ATGD7154xBBxMZ

^This team not having actual defenders or defensive leaders is a bigger part in why we suck at defense than the coach. Pringles actually got Phoenix to play decent team defense when he coached them and whether you believe it or not nobody is going to make Steve Nash a better defender.

So maybe Thibbs could teach a guy like Landry but if you past 24 imo you don't get coached on defense and suddenly become better. You already have the mindset to put in effort and hustle. If not, after that point the coach can only add in incentives for you to play defense like Thibbs does with Rose.

I think it was Osh that had a post in the season thread with the stats to back it up.
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if Thibbs wouldn't be able to teach them defense, then I'm really curious as to what a coach's job is.

seriously what is it? If it's all about the players, what is a coach's job? to look good in a suit? to talk to the media?

yes individual defense is a skill but TEAM defense is about effort and a good game plan.  Rose, Boozer, and Korver are bad defenders. But somehow Thibbs got them to buy into the team defense and it works

Pierce had the same things said about him as Melo. Can't play defense, he's a selfish ballhog, not a winner. Nobody ever called Ray Allen a good defender. Yet somehow They are now part of that amazing Celtics defense.

Dantoni has had three different cores and they have all played some of the worst defense I have ever seen. To the point where a high school coach would do a better job. They don't know how to defend the pick and roll. They switch on everything. Jared Jefferies the defensive stopper doesn't even put his hands up. How in the world is his brother qulaified to the defensive assistant?
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Dude I think you wayyy overrate the role of an NBA coach.  The NBA is a player's league.  The things you blame on D'antoni are simply not his responsibility—this is not the NFL.  Look at Doc Rivers—Bill Simmons was regularly calling him the worst coach in the league before the made the big trades.  Now even without Thibodeau he's widely respected.  Of course coaching matters, but every single X & O is not how NBA coaching works.  The coach has a system (usually) the players work within it.
Of course there are coaches who are much more hardcore about it and insist on calling almost every play for example.  People I can think of like the are Rick Carlisle, Avery Johnson, Scott Skiles, JVG to an extent.  Note something in common?  Pretty bad offensive coaches.  The NBA is a player's league and the players make a team win or lose.

An NBA coach's job is  based on a couple things:

1.  A basic system, like the triangle or SVG's inside-out ball, or D'antoni's fast passing/pick and roll game (at least before the Melo trade)

2. Managing personalities (Pat Riley, Doc Rivers, and obviously the master Phil Jackson.)

It is not the coach's job to play defense for the players.  Sorry!  It's not Da'ntoni's fault Jeffries couldn't put up his hands on that Richardson three, for example.  It's not his fault Melo shoots poorly in a quarter.  D'antoni's style is to let the players play, and he does that.  He's not perfect, but the things people on here blame on coaching are ridiculous

Edit: And like the last poster said, Phoenix was actually a middle of the pack/ top 15 team in defensive efficiency if you look at the numbers other than points scored, which were obviously weighted because they played at such a fast pace.  That is while working around one of the worst defensive stars in the history of basketball.
 
So the coach is meaningless. He just shows up and let's the players play. Gotcha

Thibbs on the knicks celtics and bulls shows us absolutely nothing. Pure coincidence
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

So the coach is meaningless. He just shows up and let's the players play. Gotcha

Thibbs on the knicks celtics and bulls shows us absolutely nothing. Pure coincidence
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There is a big difference between a good and a bad coach.  But you act as if the coach is playing the games.
Thibodeau had a huge part in those Celtic's success but he wasn't the reason they are such a good defensive team.  That also had alot to do with Garnett, with Rondo's skill, and with the positive attitudes of Allen and Pierce.  They're still great now and Thibodeau is gone now.

The bulls have a great team of defensive talent.  They have Noah, Boozer, Deng, all of who are above average to excellent defensive players and always have been.  They have size and depth defensively at every position.  Thibodeau has taken that talent and put it together through a system and made it work.  But you think he could come to the Knicks and make them a top defensive team?  Seriously?
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

So the coach is meaningless. He just shows up and let's the players play. Gotcha

Thibbs on the knicks celtics and bulls shows us absolutely nothing. Pure coincidence
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There is a big difference between a good and a bad coach.  But you act as if the coach is playing the games.
Thibodeau had a huge part in those Celtic's success but he wasn't the reason they are such a good defensive team.  That also had alot to do with Garnett, with Rondo's skill, and with the positive attitudes of Allen and Pierce.  They're still great now and Thibodeau is gone now.

The bulls have a great team of defensive talent.  They have Noah, Boozer, Deng, all of who are above average to excellent defensive players and always have been.  They have size and depth defensively at every position.  Thibodeau has taken that talent and put it together through a system and made it work.  But you think he could come to the Knicks and make them a top defensive team?  Seriously?
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

So the coach is meaningless. He just shows up and let's the players play. Gotcha

Thibbs on the knicks celtics and bulls shows us absolutely nothing. Pure coincidence
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They show up and teach their offense and defense. The results depend on the players' ability and effort. This current Knicks team with Thibbs as coach might be slightly better defensively but they're not top 10 defense in the league.
 
Forget elite. I know for a fact the defense would at least be competent. I don't think people appreciate just how bad it is. They don't even understand how to switch

This team was terrible defensively before Amare or Melo got here. This guy has been around for 3 years.
 
we lost Wilson Chandler who was able to guard every position, and we have a coach who doesn't coach.

we don't have a chance to make it out 1st round if we make it unless we play the hawk. I'm confident we can beat them
 
he is expected. I wouldn't be surprised if he played tonight and sat the rest of the season out. this is the nets super bowl this season
 
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@ this being the biggest game of our season. I don't care even if we lose. It's the $%+#%%% Nets. Melo need to not even pay Vujaci any mind.

I expect DWill to play and I figure his motivation is to display his skills in the Garden and even audition for us
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Originally Posted by DubA169

Forget elite. I know for a fact the defense would at least be competent. I don't think people appreciate just how bad it is. They don't even understand how to switch

This team was terrible defensively before Amare or Melo got here. This guy has been around for 3 years.
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No reason to bother with defense when we were aiming to lose.
 
lol @ owl trautwig taking shots at clyde

"we now go to mike breen and the owner of the miami dolphins"

this is a big game for both teams. more for jersey, but prokorov raised the stakes during the trade and hurt some feelings
 
watching on espn because my man hubie brown is announcing. they just showed legs and while critical he was very fair about the knicks

fat boy, cue ball, and white boy aren't around so im happy
 
please tell me yall just heard that the nets are literally calling it their super bowl

and this moron avery johnson says that if he was in the game he would hard foul chauncey right off the bat
 
Originally Posted by DubA169

I said it's the biggest game of the nets season not ours
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No. Melo said this is the biggest game of our season
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And yeah the whole commentating line up is different for this game. Hubie at MSG and Legs for halftime. Guess Barry, Wilbon, and that annoying female commentator didn't want nothing to do with this game after the Knicks won on Mon.
 
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