***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[junglejim]

It appears Republicans came out in a major way to restore voting rights in Florida

Agreed. The republicans did a very good job of restoring voting rights in Florida.

Those darn republicans always looking out for voting rights

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Diversity initiatives are not keeping the minimum wage from being raised. McWhorter is confusing causation with correlation. What's actually happening is that Capital has so thoroughly won its battles with labor that it is keeping wages low for most people, including most white people but also almost all non white people.

In order to manage stagnant wages for almost all and declining white wealth and wages (capital is “solving” the wealth gap by making most whites poorer, squeezing all but the elite of the elite of all races down into peasant status), some parts of capital have empowered reactionary whites, not economically but culturally and politically. In a sense, parts of capital have had a “diversity initiative” of there isn’t, bankrolling violence QAnon candidates and getting them into Congress.

Meanwhile, other parts of capital, especially finance, tech and big media brands, are embracing a multi-cultural aesthetic. Obviously, some non whites will materially benefit but for most it’s an aesthetic.

The diversity initiatives are not causing the wages to stagnate. You could take away the diversity initiatives and wages would still be low. McWhorter and those like him need to stop thinking like pundits and worrying what reactionary whites will think. Those whites will always greet even the most modest of gains, o the part of POC, with massive reprisals. The only hope to get wages up and to have real multi racial power sharing is through a revolutionary multi racial workers front, the lines of which John McWhorter would condemn.

well mcwhorter is so obsessed with progressive racial politics

to him every problem in society seemingly starts and ends with annoying progressives.

climate change?
israel-palestine?
soil degradation in agriculture?

all could be fixed if we just made got rid of annoying progressives.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yep it’s mostly a class signal and way to measure against each other. The problem is when people don’t realize those elite schools are like 10% “help you get a job”

that scandal with those famous parents making **** up and committing crimes to get their kids into fancy schools was the greatest example.




like going to USC vs "insert bad school" isn't going to make a bit of difference in the lives of the children of rich famous celebrities


but they wanted so bad to say to their other rich friends "My kids going to USC "

 

[Present]

 

[Cashflow]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah I don't agree. To be honest I think most of your restatements of the arguments just sound like straw men.

Like Who said that technocratic decisions can't perpetuature black wage gap?
Who you shouldn't learn the lessons from new deal failings on race.
He literally says he agrees with the critisms of the new deal. The stuff about the post new deal realignment is contestable, this idea that it's some iron clad fact that he's getting wrong to me clearly isn't true. I think the argument about the shift to the democratic party starting with economics makes sense imo

So yah I just don't see it the same way. *Shrug*

-I think what qualifies as a strawman in your world is just something you don't agree with

I am saying that Matt likes to present some argument as a sort of consensus, which it is often not. His whole new deal rant depends on making that rhetorical move first. That he doesn't consider people having alternative conclusions outside his binary framing.

-Beyond that, I think his argument itself has a massive hole in it...

Matt says he agrees with the criticisms of the New Deal (this is the most Sullivan thins about him btw, paragraphs of ****ting on an idea he swears is the consensus, then circling back with I agree on the criticisms just not the conclusion), but acts like calling it racist is a bridge too far because remember....check notes...FDR's vote share among black people (correction some black people) increased some years later. The only explanation to that must be the class politics of the New Deal, so he is making a causation argument. FDR did this, so this happened. But the argument ignores a lot. Like the black voting population not being representative of the black population because of Jim Crow, and the fight over anti-lynching legislation. The Democratic Party fought for the black vote, and used FDR's wife and her efforts with civil rights when targeting black voters. That kinda seems like an important point that undercuts the whole "it was just economics" vibe the piece was putting off.

He also tried to undercut the point people make about black people shifting support to the Dems because of the Civil Rights Act and Goldwater. When the data points to that starting a more persistent shift. He supports his argument by pointing to trends, then does a **** job at analyzing said trends.

To circle back to what you said about Biden, now I dunno if you were talking about the general or primary, I would assume primary because the general doesn't make much sense for you to use. Like Black people voting for Joe Biden, doesn't erase his history of supporting racist policy. But history has proven he was probably the best choice for the general, and black people knew they were not nominating the same guy from the 80s to the presidency. Hell, I doubt Biden win out of pure black pragmatism on how can beat Trump and avoid a disaster. Biden's endorsements from black politicians and civil rights leaders and his ties to Obama also helped a ton. We don't know how much the "crime bill Joe" stuff would have worked in the absence of those things. Especially since the Crime Bill Joe stuff hurt him in 2008.

Same way, we don't know how FDR would have performed in the absence of the other things.

Matt the wonk is omitting a variable, which biases all conclusions you can draw from his argument.

-Like you say it backs up your argument "black people can be pragmatic", all I am saying that more goes into that pragmatism beyond class economics Matt argues. I acknowledge that Matt agrees with criticism of things like the New Deal but his agreements come off as more of him guarding his flank instead of exploring how it might undercut his point. In regards to his argument about voting trends, he handwaves a lot.

I get it, you think it reaffirms your beliefs about black pragmatism, but I think it just peddles some bad class reductionism. I think it is kinda weird to use Bernie supporter that thinks Bernie was too woke in 2020, and whose class politics didn't help him capture much of the black vote as support for your views on black voters pragmatism too. Like if black votes can be moved so much with class politics, why did they pick Biden over Sanders.? Kinda doesn't make sense to me.

I am fine with you not seeing it the same way. I don't mean it as an insult but I don't really care about convincing you to agree with my position. I just think I should expand on my position.

You like dude and his content because he confirms your previously held beliefs, cool. I clearly don't get the same utility from his content.

Keep liking dude. I'll keep having issues if what I see as poor arguments.

 

[IATT]

 

[dinyc3st]

anyone specifically referenced by those crazies

but especially AOC, ilhan Omar and Nancy pelosi

republicans deliberately going get someone killed

Fixed

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[Mark Antony]

Republicans are ****ed but realistically so are we. Whenever they are pressed by their more extreme factions they side with the faction and cede a bit of control with each step and legitimize them further. See tea party through maga.

 

[IATT]

Wonder if this is with pay....

 

[junglejim]

Rose twitter is on one today after AOC talked about sexual assault yesterday

 

[Mark Antony]

Wonder if this is with pay....

I'm certain, but if not they'll be fine, they'll get back pay. Current system of policing is broken but let's throw more at it hoping additions will fix it vs a restructuring.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Apparently, the is a post-mortem going around from Trump's pollsters detailing what went wrong for him in 2020.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/...topsy-paints-damning-picture-of-defeat-464636

Former President Donald Trump has blamed the election results on unfounded claims of fraud and malfeasance. But at the top levels of his campaign, a detailed autopsy report that circulated among his political aides paints a far different — and more critical — portrait of what led to his defeat.

The post-mortem, a copy of which was obtained by POLITICO, says the former president suffered from voter perception that he wasn’t honest or trustworthy and that he was crushed by disapproval of his handling of the coronavirus pandemic. And while Trump spread baseless accusations of ballot-stuffing in heavily Black cities, the report notes that he was done in by hemorrhaging support from white voters.

The report zeroes in on an array of demographics where Trump suffered decisive reversals in 2020, including among white seniors, the same group that helped to propel him to the White House. The autopsy says that Trump saw the “greatest erosion with white voters, particularly white men,” and that he “lost ground with almost every age group.” In the five states that flipped to Biden, Trump’s biggest drop-off was among voters aged 18-29 and 65 and older.

Suburbanites — who bolted from Trump after 2016 — also played a major role. The report says that the former president suffered a “double-digit erosion” with “White College educated voters across the board.”

Now many more autopsies and analyses are yet to come out, and they might have different conclusions, but I think this one is worth singling out because it is written by Trump's chief pollster.

The main takeaway is that his losses with white people really cost him. Covid hurt him. SCOTUS really motivated Biden voters. His improvements with Hispanics were not enough to save him

But most importantly

TRUMP DIDN'T IMPROVE HIS PERFMROANCE WITH BLACK PEOPLE

The shifts are too small for it to be deemed statically significant or make any real difference.

dacomeup deuce king Wasn't Delk telling up this would happen? I wonder if his position flipped the day after the election too.

 

[Belgium]

This meeting must've been wild
Highly recommended reading


Excerpt to give you an idea:

 

[Nike Jordan]

at the name of RustyShackleford 's attachment file.

 

[IATT]

 

[blastercombo]

Ok, show me the crazies on the dem side.......make sure they’re as crazy as someone claiming half of 9/11 never happened even though a qtr of the pentagon literally was blown to hell

 

[art vandelay]

Rose twitter is on one today after AOC talked about sexual assault yesterday

As in Rose McGowan?

 

[RustyShackleford]

As in Rose McGowan?

As in socialist

A lot of Twitter socialist put a red rose on their profiles

 

[junglejim]

dacomeup deuce king Wasn't Delk telling up this would happen? I wonder if his position flipped the day after the election too.

You talking about this?

You conveniently left out record funding to HBCUs, the First Step Act and the Fair Chance Act.

It seems that we also might get a police reform bill prior to the election.

I think he will get a higher percent of the black vote than he did in 2016.

And I think it is already showing that Biden is not doing as well as Hillary did with the black vote.

But, as always, we will see.

at being such a hermit you think MORE black ppl will vote for Trump. Even the people who wanted to give him a chance in ‘16 are now like “ nah, this mf is crazy”.

There's no chance he gets over 8%

We will see

 

[sreggie101]

i get more annoyed with trudeau everyday.

Not that I disagree or agree with you, but what is CA not doing enough of for their citizens? Because my first question is, wouldn't this graph be misleading if GDP sizes vary from country to country? I would think Canada has a smaller economy than the US, so wouldn't the math make sense that there would be a 2% difference? Not to mention what is the true dollar value going to the people?

edit: https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/
if anything, Canada, even it it does spend less, residents get more value from govt than U.S

So in CA you have tax-funded universal healthcare which people wouldn't lose during a pandemic, because health coverage isn't an employee benefit, it is tied to citizenship. But in the US, as backwards as it sounds, millions of people lost healthcare access due to a healthcare crisis, but we try to make good by throwing a few thousand and call it day.

So I ask, because, I'm not a CA resident, and am just genuinely curious what you think trudeau is slackin on?

 

[junglejim]

McConnell will not lose his seat this cycle.

And the Dems will not win the Senate this cycle.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Not that I disagree or agree with you, but what is CA not doing enough of for their citizens? Because my first question is, wouldn't this graph be misleading if GDP sizes vary from country to country? I would think Canada has a smaller economy than the US, so wouldn't the math make sense that there would be a 2% difference? Not to mention what is the true dollar value going to the people?

edit: https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

So in CA you have tax-funded universal healthcare which people wouldn't lose during a pandemic, because health coverage isn't an employee benefit, it is tied to citizenship. But in the US, as backwards as it sounds, millions of people lost healthcare access due to a healthcare crisis, but we try to make good by throwing a few thousand and call it day.

So I ask, because, I'm not a CA resident, and am just genuinely curious what you think trudeau is slackin on?

the number is as a percentage of your GDP, so in reality it should be easier for canada to put a stimulus that's a much higher percentage of our GDP since our economy is smaller and it's super cheap to borrow money.



but yes you could argue, we have universal healthcare and y'all don't so maybe you'd rather be in canada.
The US has done quite a bit tho in terms of stimulus.


I have less issues with the income support Canada has done and more issue with the vaccination roll out.

we are going way slower than the US, and I just don't think the federal government is doing nearly enough to speed that up. that's really what's pissing me off. at the current rate my 60+ year old mom won't get a vaccine till september 2021.


it's unacceptable to me.

and i really despise the fact that ontario is doing frontline workers in the first waves of vaccine. it just doesn't make sense to me that you would give a 30 year old nurse the vaccine over a 70 year old person.